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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Puppy 5.3
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr 2011, 04:16    Post subject:  Puppy 5.3
Subject description: 5.3 features
 


We await the first alpha from Saluki and Lucid has now finished
its development cycle [what a great version that is!]

We can begin developing 5.3.
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Puppy53

Promotional video
http://youtu.be/NELU0eRto3E

Audio Pawedcast
ogg format aprox. 3MB better quality
http://tmxxine.com/sound/spot.ogg

MP3 format aprox. 3MB
http://tmxxine.com/sound/spot.mp3

Here is what is known of POTENTIAL 5.3 'Spot' features:

Chief Developer
Mick Amadio (01mick - main support developer on Lucid)
Support developers now required. Is Shinobar still with us?
Hope so after Japanese situation.
Barry are you intending for Woof to offer 64 bit support? (otherwise Mick will be hacking Woof)
Ttuuxxx will you have time to do some compiling like you did on Lucid?
Technosaurus or anyone will you have a go at bug tracking?
Logo? Crayons at the ready guys.
Joe, it's Slack, will you help and advise?
Will kirk and jamesbond be helping out with the 64bit side?
Jemimah, Tasmod, Dougal, Zigbert - who else?

Features
Built from latest Woof using a Slackware base
Goal of under 100MB ISO
Min spec P3 600 with 256 RAM
lzm compression as used by Slax and Porteus
Porteus compatibility
KDE Trinity support as module
32bit and 64bit versions
Gettext being used in all GUI scripts for internationalization
Bug tracking
Transmission and Chat programs return
Most secure Puppy ever.
The firewall on by default
Browser run as spot (non root running)
Security dialogue on first booting, including unmounting, benefits of encryption, use of passwords, education rather than FUD, Running from DVD benefits etc.
Panic button, disconnect from internet
Enhanced snapshot by radky
Automatic 'personal storage file growth'/movement into a swap file
Quickpet evolution
Boot menu
Xpupsay dialogue as used in Snowpuppy
Sorting out Browser/Flash incompatibilities on AMD dual core processors

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puppyluvr


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PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr 2011, 19:42    Post subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
How can I help??
I was hoping for a T2 base again,ala 3.01, but slackware is cool too...
Compile something...A cute GUI...backgrounds and icons...themes????
I wanna help... Cool

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disciple

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PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr 2011, 01:34    Post subject:  

Quote:
I was hoping for a T2 base again,ala 3.01, but slackware is cool too

?
3.x was Slackware compatible. Am I missing something?

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr 2011, 06:16    Post subject:  

I can not contribute much at all but Seaside made a good thing that relates to this:

To make it under 100 MB and this
Automatic 'personal storage file growth'/movement into a swap file

He added to his SFS-exec a SFS-exec-pupsave so that one only add to the pupsave when one are sure that one want to add to it. So the pupsave file is turned into a sfs file that is loaded and only added to when one click on save to pupsave button.

that way one can let puppy be very modular and portable and flexible in what it has loaded at boot. All big progs should be made into sfs that one chose when needed. His sfs loader works almost instantly which the others don't. Yes he should have more fail check but this latest version seems to add to the security too.

Very handy. Works now on Puppy 431 and it's derivates.
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=513314#513314

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puppyluvr


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PostPosted: Fri 15 Apr 2011, 21:53    Post subject:  

Very Happy Hello,

yes, you are correct... Embarassed
It was 4 series that was T2..
3 was slackware 12....
So, cool, even better...
3.01 was very stable and strong on dependencies...
Looking forward...

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Iguleder


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr 2011, 01:44    Post subject:  

Can't believe you forgot me, Lobster Laughing
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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr 2011, 02:00    Post subject:  

Igu I was deeply disappointed that I just missed you and Mick on IRC yesterday.

I also missed Jay (Puppyluvr) and many other potential team members - my apologies. I am lucky if I can remember where I last placed my own head.

Please bear with us. Mick wishes to assemble a team before taking on 5.3. It is important to understand how much work Larry put into Lucid. Only Warren who did two previous Puppys and those working so hard for the community have any idea of the work involved. Work that Barry did for years.

However also what fun. Remember Nooby has moved from newbie status to one of our most prolific testers. Anyone can test and that is very time consuming too Very Happy

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Iguleder


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr 2011, 03:43    Post subject:  

Count me in. I can do some small stuff ... when time is precious, I do less but think more. I can contribute ideas and creativity ... maybe some packages and code too, if I find enough time.

At the moment I'm working on a tweaked T2 that I intend to use for Calf GNU/Linux 005, my next build. This time I also want to experiment with Woof and Calf packages, I want to build a Puppy from Calf's packages, a plain tpup. I'll upload all sources, packages, my tweaked T2, the vanilla T2 and a patch with my changes, so people can use it to build tpups or maybe some experimental builds of 6.0.

Regarding 5.3 (or 6.0), the features I'm thinking about are:
- Kernel 2.6.38, it seems very stable and .39 won't be very exciting.
- XZ compression for SFSs (good for size), with support for LZO (GREAT for "lite" or "retro" versions, very fast) and gzip (backwards compatibility, balance between size and speed, good for "normal" versions).
- Locales and documentation in separate SFSs, a-la devx. Woof does not detect (or deal with) packages that were not splitted (i.e with the documentation and locales inside them), so each Woof build has some fat - that's something Barry needs to deal with.
- xdg-user-dirs with Desktop disabled (!!!), time to get modern Smile
- LXTask, LXRandR
- xbindkeys and xbindkeys-config, with bindings for xlockmore, LXTask and rxvt-unicode
- xarchiver, because xarchive is ancient and buggy (XZ support, the bzip2 bug ttuuxxx found, etc')
- volumeicon and some mixer instead of retrovol, because the latter is heavy and volumeicon is AWESOME (you can find the sources of the hacked one I made for Calf here). The package is 14K as far as I remember, compared to 29K of the vanilla volumeicon Very Happy

Well, some of these sound weird and they're not acceptable for 5.x (e.g kernel upgrade), but after all, Puppy and Woof are the reason I develop Calf Linux and Moo, they're just an experiment. Puppy is my true love and I want 6.x to be the french revolution of live distros: innovative, simple, fast, clean, TOP NOTCH in any aspect and the best distro in the galaxy Smile

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dejan555


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr 2011, 03:54    Post subject:  

Slack base? Hmm, sounds good I might help with testing since I wasn't much involved in lupu dev.
Just point me to development/testing thread once it launches.

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James C


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr 2011, 04:24    Post subject:  

Iguleder wrote:

Regarding 5.3 (or 6.0), the features I'm thinking about are:
- Kernel 2.6.38, it seems very stable and .39 won't be very exciting.


There's already a couple totally unofficial, extremely experimental isos using 2.6.38.2 out in the wild.

Pemasu released Ice Puppy 001, based on Lucid, and I just posted an Spup.... both with 2.6.38.2. It does seem like a really solid kernel.
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01micko


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr 2011, 05:59    Post subject:  

Hi guys

time to break my silence.

It's kind of weird that people would actually want me to head up a puppy release. After all, I have no computer background apart from being a general user for about 12 years and a Linux user for the last 10. That said, I'm no stranger around here and I'm no stranger to the woof build system.

I have produced many builds from woof with varying success. The latest is Spup - "Elephant Rock" which has a little band of followers and has proved relatively stable with limited testing. I also helped mavrothal with XO-pup for the OLPC xo-1 and xo-1.5 laptops. Of course most here know that I made about 2000 posts in the Pwidgets thread Rolling Eyes , about 10% of those useful! As I type, spup-100 (the final in the slack puppy based on 13.1) is building in woof, should be ready today or tomorrow. You can use it as kind of a preview.

~

What I envision is a stable puppy based on the latest Slackware-13.37 (due any day now) optimised for size and speed which can run on an old clunker (say a p3 600, 256 RAM) and the latest 64 bit arch machines, while supporting a wide range of internal and peripheral hardware.. So that means 2 branches of development. I see plenty of talk about ARM and tablets but this is a bit out of my league and there is plenty of life yet in the x86 arch and the x86_64. However, the primary focus will be on the current x86 arch, the x86_64 development will depend alot on my time and other devs' interest.

We must remember, playdayz set a very high benchmark with a great puppy that has a well stocked repo of sfs and pets. That will be a challenging act to follow. I guess I have the advantage of being tightly involved in Lupu dev and also that slack Puppy has been done before with puppy 3 series. There are actually quite a few scripts in Puppy that Barry has adapted directly from Patrick Volkerding's (sklackware BD) work.

So, how do we build this? I would like to think we can organise a bit of a core team. Obviously Lobster Ed is in charge of promotions... even when things aren't yet decided Rolling Eyes Laughing .. I guess he has that time machine going and hasn't shared the secret yet! I would like to see some people get compiling (of course when the core is ready Wink ), in an organised kind of way, just to save doubling up on work (ttuuxxx, Billtoo, technosaurus, anyone who likes to compile stuff!). I'd like to see exactly what shinobar has acheived (translation wise) with Lupq and Quickset Wary, again, we want to reach as many corners of the globe as possible and if something has been done then why redo it? Maybe, shinobar would like to work with us and save having his international version at all. What say you shinobar? Smile Of course artwork is up for grabs! I want this to be fun! I would still like to stay with JWM but some have grown fond of openbox/fbpanel. Should we have both? Of course I'd like builtin support for other Wms/DEs like in lupu.

It was suggested somewhere in the lupu thread that perhaps we should set up a bug tracker. ok, how's that done? Anyone know? How do we publicise it? (If this comes to fruition).

I really want to draw on peoples strengths. Here's a thought I had. Joe (big_bass ) seriously dislikes the woof build system. That's fine by me. He likes the set standards and working to them and in some ways I tend to agree. However woof is Barry's baby and that's the direction he wants Puppy to take. I like woof. It may not be proper to congeal together a bunch of packages from another distro and force them to work with Puppy scripts but as long as there is no dependency mismatches it seems to work a treat. I'd like you to be there Joe just in case I have any curly Slack questions for you. Amigo too.

I'd also ask Warren (WhoDo) to be around... well I know you'll be around, just you might get the odd frustrated PM from me.. that's of course if all this goes ahead!

Of course, this needs Barry's stamp of approval. So there'll be nothing official until I have a few commitments and the BK seal.

Either way, as soon as Slack-13.37 goes stable I'll be building a woofed up spup and building a new kernel. Still undecided which way to go with the kernel. There have been good reports about the 2.6.38 series and it does have the advantage of xz compression which has the potential for bringing down Puppy's size.. but at what cost? Methinks backward compatibility with a bunch of existing sfs. We'll see on that one, also xz will be a learning curve for me.

See what happens, eh? Smile

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nooby

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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr 2011, 07:14    Post subject:  

As I get it you guys want it to work on 256MB of RAM. Then using the approach to have applications in sfs and only loading the app one need would be handy?

I have tested what Seaside came up wit hand sure it can have the downside that Shinobar pointed out to him but that is a something one can look into apart from that his latest solution is very practical and fast and if even I who is extremely clumsy and confused can use it then that means it is right on a very practical way of being modular and using sfs in a practical fast way. loading and unloading them and not having to wait for any menu entry or rebooting.

To protect the pupsave from getting corrupted he came up with that it never save until one want it to save.

1. That way one can experiment and regret a change and it will not add to the pupsave.
2. the downside is that one can lose what one wrote if it was supposed to be in pupsave and if some application crash by filling RAM and locking it up. The solution is to save such to the mnt/home instead often enoug to have it saved if somethign crash. Apart from that and seen from my newbie perspective it is a winner.

Sorry I now set this to not follow to not interfere in your dev things.
I just saw it as very important you all get aware of what a good thing he set up.

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sc0ttman


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr 2011, 07:19    Post subject:  

I'd be happy to contribute what I could, not sure what I would do. Maybe a few GUIs, make a few PETs, testing, etc...

Just thought I'd post my 2 cents while everything is still up the in the air... For the next Puppy, here's a few things I was thinking about:

- Firstly, I do not want us to jump the gun. Let Lucid lie for a while, other developments will come along with Wary, Quirky, etc, that we will want to have a look at.

- I do not want too many confusing, concurrent project names, like luci, lucid, lupu, saluki, etc

- I do not want two concurrent version numbers for each build (or any fork of) that gets made (6.0 already referred to as 5.3, above)...

- I want to see us start with 6.0 alpha1, then 6.0 alpha2, alpha 3.. then 6.0 beta1, beta2, beta3... then 6.0 RC1, RC2, RC3... Then Puppy 6.0! Then 6.1 alpha1, 6.1 alpha2, 6.1 beta1, 6.1 RC1, etc, then finally Puppy 6.1.... It's easy. for everyone this way, right?

- I do not want ANY menu entries for apps that work with only 1 specific WM! A JWM settings app in the menu, when we use XFCE, for example..

- If you put any items into the menu that require a specific WM, better make sure they are removed or hidden, if the WM is not in use.

The above 'issues' make following development harder for those with less knowledge and/or time.


Size:

- locales and stuff in separate SFS, easy installer of extra lcoales, linked with firstrun or something

- I want the vesa only Xorg (idea from Quirky) as standard - if it works nicely.

- I want under 100mb, or under 110mb or so, if possible. But with the zdrv_cutr and OTF SFS loading, we should really be talking about a starting size... Puppy should be VERY easy to grow or shrink as required!!

- I want conservative lib versions, where we can get away with it - to increase backward compatibility

- I want a zdrv, so I can reduce the modules needed later. Ttuuxxx posted on the BK blog some good ideas about going further than the 'zdrc_cutr'.

- I want technosaurus and goingnuts to look at making thigns less resource intensive as small and lightweight as possible.

- Ttuuxx and Barry K should be listened to about keeping compiled packages smaller - we should compile our apps whenever possible, not steal from ubuntu.

Features and Apps:

- RDP! working out of the box

_ also prefer xarchiver to xarchve

- I want a CLI package manager!

- I want OTF SFS loading

- I want a simple "dir2pet" type thing, that automatically separates and builds the pkg, and its DEV and NLS pets. Igu has done something abotu this already , I think...

- Knowing the exact names of the deps to include when building a PET is not easy. I want to have a tool that gives me a list, or choice, or helps me in some way!

- About security, MU posted a BASH script to generate random MAC addresess, this could be combined with my MAC-Changer GUI to give random MAC addresses at boot.. If anyone wanted it

- I want ALL of the PETswe make to install not only themselves but their deps as well - this is usually not the case (see above)

- I want my default-apps-chooser thing to be included (or similar).

- I want shinobars internationalisation and localisation work to be included as much as possible.

- I want only 1 menu entry to 'Set Wallpaper' or 'Edit Taskbar' (etc), NOT specific to a particular WM - load up some Puppy scripts that detect the WM and run the relevant wallpaper changer, or menu config, etc

- I want bigbass to look at the package management, see if we can make it more 'standard', and remove 'built ins' very easily.

- I want maybe an optional HUGE devx, including nearly everything we got, to make compiling stuff on Puppy as easy as on other distros. At least put src2pkg in the devx.

I know I don't know as much about any of this as most people, but thought I'd share my thoughts... As I contributed literally nothing to Lupu, except the Advert Blocker thing... Embarassed

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stu90


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr 2011, 08:17    Post subject:  

I liked the browser chooser, quick pet, and graphics driver lookup / installer from Lucid puppy - these are new user friendly and also got praise from reviewers.

How about a review of what applications to include - one app per task.

Being a fan of lighter version how about a more modular approach by including all the default applications is a separate .sfs - that way it would make it easy to build custom, specialized or updated .sfs and with sfs load on the fly it makes it easy to swap and change as and when what ever .sfs is needed.

things i don't like - the volume icon!!!! please we need a new volume icon.

Desktop icon clutter - this is easily fixed with wbar (think dpup) it cleans up the look of the desktop as well as adding a bit of eye candy.
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Iguleder


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PostPosted: Sat 16 Apr 2011, 12:51    Post subject:  

Regarding package splitting ....

Fresh from the Calf GNU/Linux 005 oven, the magical, automatic package splitter. It uses "-exe", "-dev", "-doc" and "-nls" instead of the traditional Puppy suffixes, but I'm pretty sure it won't bother anyone.

It has two parameters:
- A directory containing a raw binary package (i.e a whole package)
- Redirection rules in Woof format: exe>exe,dev>dev,doc>doc,nls>nls. Change these to redirect certain parts of the package.

Example:
Code:
split_package /tmp/cups-1.4.5 "exe>exe,dev>dev,doc>exe,nls>nls"


This splits /tmp/cups-1.4.5 and moves all documentation to the EXE package.

Code:
#!/bin/sh

# split_package: split a package to exe, dev, doc and nls

if [ ! -d $1 ]; then

   echo "Usage: split_package [PACKAGE] [REDIRECTION]"
   exit 1
   
fi

echo "Splitting `basename $1`"

# the full path to the package
package_path=`realpath $1`
   
# the package name
package_name=`basename $package_path`
   
# the parent directory of the package
parent_dir=`dirname $package_path`
   
# default redirection
exe_redirection="exe"
dev_redirection="dev"
doc_redirection="doc"
nls_redirection="nls"

# parse redirection
for redirection in `echo $2 | sed s/,/" "/g`; do

   redirection_source=`echo $redirection | cut -f 1 -d ">"`
   redirection_target=`echo $redirection | cut -f 2 -d ">"`
   
   case $redirection_source in
   
      exe)
         
         exe_redirection="$redirection_target"
         ;;
   
      dev)
      
         dev_redirection="$redirection_target"
         ;;
   
      doc)
      
         doc_redirection="$redirection_target"
         ;;
   
      nls)
      
         nls_redirection="$redirection_target"
         ;;
         
   esac
      
done
   
cd $package_path
 
for i in `find | grep /`; do
      
   # check whether the file exists, in case it was moved already
   if [ -e $i ]; then
      
      file_name="`basename $i`"
            
      case "$file_name" in
             
         *.la|*.a|*.o|*.prl|pkgconfig|include|*.m4|*.h|*.c|*.cpp)
                     
            suffix="$dev_redirection"
            ;;
                      
         doc|*-doc|gtk-doc|help|readme.txt|README.TXT|about.txt|ABOUT.TXT|readme|README|manual|MANUAL|faq|FAQ|todo|TODO|dir)
                  
            suffix="$doc_redirection"
            ;;
               
         man|info) # if it's a directory named "man" or "info", move to doc
               
            [ -d $i ] && suffix="$doc_redirection"
             ;;
                         
         locale) # if it's a directory named "locale", move to nls
               
            [ -d $i ] && suffix="$nls_redirection"
            ;;
               
         i18n|nls)
                  
            suffix="$nls_redirection"
            ;;
                  
      esac
      
      # verbosity, output the redirection for each redirected file
      case "$suffix" in
          
         nls|doc|dev)

            echo " $file_name -> $suffix"
                  
            # detect the sub_directory inside the package
            sub_directory=${i%/$file_name}
            sub_directory=${sub_directory:2}
                           
            # add the suffix to the package name
            subpackage_name=${package_name}-${suffix}

            # create the directory under the sub-package directory
            mkdir -p $parent_dir/$subpackage_name/$sub_directory
                           
            # move to the sub-package
            mv $i $parent_dir/$subpackage_name/$sub_directory
                              
            # get rid of empty directories in the main package
            rmdir $sub_directory > /dev/null 2>&1
            ;;
            
         null)
   
            echo " $file_name -> null"
                  
            # detect the sub_directory inside the package
            sub_directory=${i%/$file_name}
            sub_directory=${sub_directory:2}
                  
            # delete the file
            rm -rf $i > /dev/null 2>&1
                              
            # get rid of empty directories in the main package
            rmdir $sub_directory > /dev/null 2>&1   
            ;;
            
      esac

      unset suffix   
      
   fi
      
done

case $exe_redirection in

   dev|doc|nls)
   
      echo "Redirecting exe to $exe_redirection"
      ;;
      
esac

mkdir -p $parent_dir/$package_name-$exe_redirection
cp -r $parent_dir/$package_name/* $parent_dir/$package_name-$exe_redirection
rm -rf $parent_dir/$package_name

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