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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Mon 31 Jan 2011, 01:40    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:
Thanks aarf interesting to follow your tests and experiencethere.

I guess there is an error here. lang=sv_US
should that not be lang=en_US or similar. Smile

So you are on sdb1

How come your not in sda1 instead?

Some distros need what you have there (hd 1,0) while other like mine needs (hd0,2) due to different partition.

title Archiso-live
root (hd0,2)
kernel /archiso/boot/vmlinuz from=/dev/sda3/archiso elevator=deadline session=xfce load=overlay
initrd /archiso/boot/initrd.img

IIRC the load=overlay is there to do an autonatic log in to user arch psw arch while if one take away the load=overlay then most likely it ask for user and password before booting up?

I had to log in as root using the psw ArchLinux to get access to the music files and the picture files. But it still did not allow me to do geany editing and saving. Read only it says.

Maybe that you being on an usb allow you to mount the HDD and listen to music videos?

Knoppix live was more like Puppy but too big.


yes lang=en_US looks better.

my sda has original xandros which i have left untouched except for using and modifying the original menu.lst which i can also modify as above in now arch also. haven't tried the videos. arch doesn't hold to my current fragile wifi connection as well as puppeee so for now i wont be using arch too much.
yes have an older big knoppix and haven't looked at the new mainly because of size.

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Mon 31 Jan 2011, 10:34    Post subject:  

mikeslr

good analysis, and idea....perhaps BarryK himself might consider it??

Another thought occurring to me is that, that 'enfant terrible' of the puppy world AlienJeff went over to Arch for pretty much the reasons you highlight
- shame he didn't do it, as he was certainly a competent linuxer, if I recall, but he seemed to prefer insults, rudeness, and belittlement to constructive thought processes, though I'm sure he thought he was just being funny....[or just drunk/stoned, maybe...? AJ - wanna redeem yourself???]

I hope your enthusiasm gives rise to an interested dev/team, as I would like to see the 'mutual improvements' you speak of....the closest to it so far, I think is Joe/big_bass's slaxer_pup/ TXZ_pup 4.5 path, using slackware+puppy+selfbuild scripts, certainly in terms of package add/remove and dependencies, and updates

If someone was in need of inspiration, that may give a few tips

Of course, I know there are many other devs building other versions, but Arch seems to have been avoided, for some reason....perhaps someone knows why?

clues here, maybe?

http://forum.osdev.org/

Aitch Smile
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb 2011, 12:10    Post subject:  

To learn more about Arch. Here is a text about a patch that allow one to boot arch iso using grub2 which allow one to boot many kinds of iso on the hdd.

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=886525#p886525

Until this is officially supported in the arch iso this is what I did to boot from the iso with grub
The official installer iso, not archboot

i typed these commands in the grub command line:
loopback loop (hd#,#)/path/to/iso.iso
linux /boot/vmlinuz26 archisolabel=ARCH_201005
initrd /boot/archiso.img
boot

It will try to boot, look for a file in /dev/disk/by-label/ARCH_201005 and fail; dropping you to a busybox shell
from here i typed the following in the console:
mkdir /disk
mount -t vfat /dev/sdb1 /disk (where /dev/sdb1 is the path to the device holding your arch iso, and vfat being the filesystem type (in this case fat32))
losetup /dev/loop0 /disk/path/to/iso.iso
logout (press ctrl+d)

the kernel will find the iso and continue booting properly from there

I don't know how to automate this but, apparently we won't need to in the next arch iso release.

End quoting his text in case the link goes away somehow.

I've struggled to boot many arch and they seem to lack that feature to boot from frugal install. So hopefully their next version have this included.

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alienjeff


Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 2291
Location: Winsted, CT - USA

PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb 2011, 00:46    Post subject:  

Aitch wrote:


Another thought occurring to me is that, that 'enfant terrible' of the puppy world AlienJeff went over to Arch for pretty much the reasons you highlight
- shame he didn't do it, as he was certainly a competent linuxer, if I recall, but he seemed to prefer insults, rudeness, and belittlement to constructive thought processes, though I'm sure he thought he was just being funny....[or just drunk/stoned, maybe...? AJ - wanna redeem yourself???]



Redeem myself? For Heaven's sake, NO! I will briefly comment, though.

My moving to Arch in August of 2008 was for two reasons: one being a long-standing disenchantment with the development path Puppy was on, and the urging of a close friend who had seen the light.

Your recollection appears selectively biased, my friend. I believe if you were to review a cross section of my forum posts, you'd note many helpful posts. And it's obvious you didn't witness my spending hours on end helping n00bs with a variety of problems in #puppylinux on IRC.

Of course there were some insults, rudeness, and belittlement -- both on IRC and in this forum. Was all of it justified? Certainly not, but in some cases it was exactly what was appropriate.

Drunk? Stoned? Sorry to disappoint you, but I don't drink or drug, Aitch.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, mkay?

And I'll offer this little update:

Though the desktop workstation box has been Arch since August of 2008, I did continue using Puppy v2.12 on my old Gateway Solo 5150 lappy for quite some time. Considering it's a 233 MHz PII, I felt this was the way to go. However, I did migrate to Tiny Core v2.10 to make my move from Puppy complete. TC, or at least v2.10, had some rough edges I didn't care for, though.

About a month ago I decided to ignore what more experienced Arch users advised and went ahead and installed Arch on the lappy. I was pleasantly surprised how well it runs on such a seemingly prehistoric box, though the 288M of RAM certainly helps. I didn't have to tweak and/or dump services as the naysayers insistently advised.

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Last edited by alienjeff on Fri 04 Feb 2011, 19:29; edited 1 time in total
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10821
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb 2011, 03:12    Post subject:  

alienjeff wrote:


About a month ago I decided to ignore what more experienced Arch users advised and went ahead and installed Arch on the lappy. I was pleasantly surprised how well it runs on such a seeminly prehistoric box, though the 288M of RAM certainly helps. I didn't have to tweak and/or dump services as the naysayers insistently advised.

Ya I bet your not using the latest firefox 4.0 on it either, or you must have one large swap file, Comparing arch to puppy on an old 233 really its only about 4 times the size of the series 2 you were using. Lets not sugar coat arch that much, maybe a arch woof might make sense but then I'm still against i686 architecture, if i386 is good enough for the most popular distro and i486 for slackware why would you go i686 for some small amount of people who actually uses it for video acceleration?. My pc's are all i686 but 100% of time I compile i386 for everyone else.
ttuuxxx

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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2257

PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb 2011, 03:38    Post subject:  

Actually, that arch 'i386' on debian and ubuntu is really i486. No distro with glibc newer than 2.2.5 can possibly run on a real i386 machine. The name i386 is used arbitrarily on those distros. Slackware was still using the label 'i386' too after changing to libc6(glibc-3.?). Since nobody ever really tries to use a real 386 machine anymore, it slipped by unnoticed that it wasn't really possible anymore. So, some puppians use of '--build=i386' in their CFLAGS is useless. Puppy has always been based on 'i486' distros anyway, so using build=i386 wouldn't work anyway.
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10821
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb 2011, 04:11    Post subject:  

amigo wrote:
Actually, that arch 'i386' on debian and ubuntu is really i486. No distro with glibc newer than 2.2.5 can possibly run on a real i386 machine. The name i386 is used arbitrarily on those distros. Slackware was still using the label 'i386' too after changing to libc6(glibc-3.?). Since nobody ever really tries to use a real 386 machine anymore, it slipped by unnoticed that it wasn't really possible anymore. So, some puppians use of '--build=i386' in their CFLAGS is useless. Puppy has always been based on 'i486' distros anyway, so using build=i386 wouldn't work anyway.

Hi amigo I've compiled that latest glibC as i386 last week for 2.14X, Ubuntu provides a patch, without the patch it doesn't compile. I didn't bother using it, I went with Wary's glibc so that they both could cross app share after a few other libs are altered.
ttuuxxx

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alienjeff


Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 2291
Location: Winsted, CT - USA

PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb 2011, 18:15    Post subject:  

ttuuxxx wrote:

Ya I bet your not using the latest firefox 4.0 on it either, or you must have one large swap file, Comparing arch to puppy on an old 233 really its only about 4 times the size of the series 2 you were using. Lets not sugar coat arch that much...


First things first: it's "you're"; not "your". And "its" is possessive; I believe you meant "it's".

I don't use a swap file. My swap partition isn't large, though. With the lappy RAM maxed out at 288M (32M hardwired and two 128M sticks), I opted for a 256M swap partition. Why? I want to give the original 4G hard drive half a chance at reaching its golden years. Besides which, I have no trouble adjusting my computing habits a bit to the restraints of existing hardware.

I did use Firefox 3.6.13 and, not surprisingly, xulrunner's porcine characteristics were altogether too obvious, After a couple of days I removed Firefox and installed Seamonkey 2.0.11. My first hit browser of choice remains elinks, though.

Chew on these factoids and data (with syslog-ng, dbus, network, netfs, crond, alsa, and openntpd daemons running):

Fresh boot, logged into tty1:
Code:

[jeff@lappy ~]$ free
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:        284820      35156     249664          0       5080      15640
-/+ buffers/cache:      14436     270384
Swap:       265068          0     265068


After logging in to tty2 and opening the only chat client whose use guarantees world domination:
Code:

[jeff@lappy ~]$ free
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:        284820      39344     245476          0       5196      17924
-/+ buffers/cache:      16224     268596
Swap:       265068          0     265068


After loggin in to tty3 and starting ratpoison WM:

Code:

[jeff@lappy ~]$ free
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:        284820      57860     226960          0       5932      29172
-/+ buffers/cache:      22756     262064
Swap:       265068          0     265068


After starting Seamonkey from within ratpoison:
Code:

[jeff@lappy ~]$ free
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:        284820     113556     171264          0       6752      65764
-/+ buffers/cache:      41040     243780
Swap:       265068          0     265068


After opening three active tab/links (drudgereport.com, bkhome.org, and alienjeff.net):
Code:

[jeff@lappy ~]$ free
             total       used       free     shared    buffers     cached
Mem:        284820     128528     156292          0       7000      68356
-/+ buffers/cache:      53172     231648
Swap:       265068          0     265068


And here's the output of "top -u jeff" at this point:

top output

And now you know why there's the "ftw" in the channel name of Freenode IRC's channel ##arch-ftw.

"Lets not sugar coat Arch that much"? Arch doesn't need sugar coating. IIRC, Puppy is chronologically two years further down the development path than Arch. That said, compare the offical Arch wiki and forum to Puppy's in both form and content. Compare #archlinux on Freenode to #puppylinux: right now 1,048 versus 43 users, respectively.

You may quote DistroWatch's little sham of a popularity contest all you want. You may quote server download bandwidth all you want. But the fact remains that it's Puppy that needs sugar coating, among a lot of other things...

_________________
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diversion: http://alienjeff.net - visit The Fringe
quote: "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker

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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb 2011, 19:03    Post subject:  

Actually someone took some of the sugar coating off of puppy and put it on arch so that now we can install arch. But more sugar coating in the form of frisbee Wifi connect needs to be transfered to arch before i for one will actually use my installed arch.
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alienjeff


Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 2291
Location: Winsted, CT - USA

PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb 2011, 19:15    Post subject:  

aarf wrote:
Actually someone took some of the sugar coating off of puppy and put it on arch...


That's hilarious. Thanks! I needed a laugh.

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, your avatar, besides being annoying, violates forum guidelines. To wit:

Only one image can be displayed at a time, its width can be no greater than 80 pixels, the height no greater than 80 pixels, and the file size no more than 6 KB. Reference: User profile, avatar control panel

_________________
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diversion: http://alienjeff.net - visit The Fringe
quote: "The foundation of authority is based upon the consent of the people." - Thomas Hooker


Last edited by alienjeff on Fri 04 Feb 2011, 19:21; edited 1 time in total
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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb 2011, 19:18    Post subject:  

Oh yes i forgot to mention the glacial speed that needs the sugar coating as well.
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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri 04 Feb 2011, 20:21    Post subject:  

1. Am I correct that a summation of the original post is that:
A-you want a Live CD of Arch ideally, and failing that want to make an ArchPup to accomplish the same thing? Have you looked at Archbang Live CD? http://archbang.org/
Here is a review: http://all-things-linux.blogspot.com/2010/10/experiencing-arch-linux-with-archbang.html

B-You are unhappy with the chaos structure of puppy? (Search my friend, it's been rehashed to death, do you think nobody's TRIED?)

2. Re: Arch not being newbie friendly...WHAT?! If you can read and follow instructions, there is not an easier distro to run. The installation is the hardest part but every step of the way is minutely detailed and documented. Including wifi, which I run all of my arch machines with, including remote wireless printing. Once you are installed, there is NOTHING easier and faster than pacman. I challenge you to find a distro that fixes the exceedingly few problems it does run into faster, or to find better organization and documentation or useful and helpful community. You choose exactly what you want and nothing you don't. It works for newbies and experienced users alike. You grow with Arch and it can grow with your abilities. What's not to love?

3. @ aitch: Your comments amaze me. I can't count how many times newbies and experienced puppy and other distro users have asked specifically for alienjeff by name for help in #p, and how many hours in every given day he spent researching for those who wouldn't do it themselves. And he knew what he was talking about. Shame the saintlier than thou forum gurus can't be bothered to contribute the same effort before they cast stones. He gave more to puppy than he should have, given how he's been treated here. And before you choose to comment on the sarcastic things he HAS said, you better know the history and reasons he said them first.

And as to making an ArchPup, I for one would hope he doesn't waste his time on that. Arch is arch, Puppy is Puppy. A merger would be about as useful as the Ubuntu disaster.

4. @ aarf: wifi on arch is fine, I have 3 laptops running it flawlessly all with different wifi cards. Only one driver needed to be rebuilt, the broadcom-wl using AUR, but with the precise detailed step-by-step instructions in Arch's wiki, that was a piece of cake too. Also #archlinux offers supurb help if you need it.

5. Puppy was an excellent stepping stone for me into the world of linux. However I lost interest after 431 when it tried to be something it wasn't. It isn't Ubuntu, it isn't Debian, it isn't Slackware, it isn't Arch. If you all want these distros so badly, go use them! Let puppy be puppy. It has veered sadly off of it's hayday path in my opinion.

6. Has anybody asked Judd Vinet, Aaron Griffin, and the rest of the Arch team what they think about Arch being used in this way? From www.archlinux.org:
Copyright © 2002-2011 Judd Vinet and Aaron Griffin.

The Arch Linux name and logo are recognized trademarks. Some rights reserved.

The registered trademark Linux® is used pursuant to a sublicense from LMI, the exclusive licensee of Linus Torvalds, owner of the mark on a world-wide basis.

For more details, you all might want to read here:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/DeveloperWiki:TrademarkPolicy

Oh yeah, and last but not least, mikeslr, there are "dames" here. Rolling Eyes I can only speak for myself, but I'm not here to be a dame. I'm here to learn linux.
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sat 05 Feb 2011, 03:06    Post subject:  

AJ wrote:
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, mkay?


persaccly! 'swhy I did it...no stone, though, just a grape...

You only need to justify if you feel there's any truth in it

otherwise....shh

help you may have....but you are remembered more for the ruderies and upsets, sadly

.....that's a stone you threw yourself in IRC heaven, mate

@shariebeth - don't be so amazed, I know both sides to the equation....and arch is no sacred cow, and most likely will be assimilated.....we are puppy.......there is no escape..... Wink

Aitch Smile
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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2257

PostPosted: Sat 05 Feb 2011, 03:37    Post subject:  

@ttuuxxx -you'll have to actually try running ubuntu or pupy or any other modern distro on a real i386 machine to covince me. I suppose that the ubunut patch is merely to allow you to name the arch 'i386' instead of i486. Point me to the patch in question so I can have a look anyway.

Even if it were so, do you know lots of people running i386's. Not many -if any! And compiling anything for an i386 target ignores the most valuable optimizations there are. What I mean is that the performance gains of compiling for i486 instead of i386 are the largest leap available. i486 to i586, i586 - i686, i586 - pentiumIV --none of these other increments will give you as much advantage as the jump from i386 to i486.

And, tyring to compile programs with an i386 target on a system which has glibc compiled for i486 will do nothing. If glibc is not compiled for i386, then nothing else compiled with i386 target will run as i386 anyway. Also, unless you are properly using -march and -mcpu options, you may be disallowing any upper-end options available for faster arches.

A system compiled for 'pure i686' (march=i686 mcpu=i686) will not run any faster than a system compiled for march=i486 mcpu=i686. But compiling for pure i686 means the system will not run on any cpu lesser than i686. This is why pure i686 builds are so rare.

There really is no need to specify the 'build' option in your CFLAGS anyway(unless you are cross-compiling) -the configuration process figures it out on its' own. And if you still think that the option, as you use it, might do something, it's really the 'host' option you should be using. build is for the machine you are compiling *on*. 'host' is for the machine the program will run on. Specifying 'build' by itself does not affect the outcome of the compile. To get the (your) desired effect you'd need to specify the host and the build. You should see warnings every time you try to compile specifying only one of these.

To anyone who knows a little about compiling, your use of build=i386 on an i486 system is simply ludicrous.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 790
Location: Union New Jersey USA

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb 2011, 14:21    Post subject: Walking=allowing yourself to begin to fall
Subject description: Civility = a condition essential to maintaining a community
 

Hi All,

@ Alienjeff, thank you for contributing to the discussion, even if some have seen it as occasion to descend into chaos. Both chaos and order are primeval conditions. The I Ching recognizes both as fundamental, each containing the seed of the other. It has been too long since I read Loa Tzu, but I seem to remember a parable about branches: they must be sufficiently strong to provide support, but sufficiently flexible to bend in the wind.

The language of Denmark and Norway are both Scandinavian. There’s a story, perhaps apocryphal, that there was once a war between them. The king of one was insulted by what the other had intended as a complement.
The earliest strata of the Old Testament was written a thousand years before Greek Civilization invented Prose as a form of communication. It includes most of Genesis and the Court Histories of David and Solomon. Its verses of are True, even if they are not always historically accurate. Like poetry, they capture the essence, the “gestalt,” though not with the detailed discourse and analysis we currently expect. They evidence a profound --I find invariably accurate--understanding of the Human Condition. If we are to build something, “The Tower of Babel” reminds us both that we must do so with humility, and an appreciation that we do not all speak the same language.
We do not all speak alike. We do not even all think alike.
Today we live in a Global Village, a term for a civilization that extends world-wide.
What we refer to as Civilization began on the banks of the Nile, the Yellow and Yangtze Rivers, the fertile plains between the Tigris and Euphrates, and the watershed of the Indus. For perhaps 150,000 years, or more, Man had lived as bands of hunter-gatherers. Each person was part of an extended family, sharing the same culture, speaking the same language, passing knowledge on from generation to generation, but limited by tradition. Those ancestors lived in the “Eternal Now,” a paradise of ‘easy pickings.’ 12,000 years ago, there was climate change which, over the succeeding millennium, devastated the eco-systems of which Man was a part, and upon which Man depended. Man --the progeny which survived the change-- found refuge by the Rivers, learning their seasonal fluctuations and discovering the efficiencies of planting and harvesting. [Genesis records that Cain, the farmer, became the builder of a city]. With the broad expanse of forest and savanna gone, the fundamental change was not Man’s invention of agriculture, but his response to his confrontation with “the Other.” As a migrant hunter-gatherer, the meeting by one with another not of his family or clan, was a chance encounter, perhaps a ‘once in a life-time’ event. As a sedentary dweller by the River, the last certain source of sustenance, frequent meetings with those not of your tradition and language was almost a certainty.
I do not know the early ethnological history of those villages which grew on the banks of the Yellow and Yangtze Rivers. And, as far as I know, we have yet to decode the symbols left to us at Mohenjo Daro and Harappa. But the evidence from Sumer and Egypt strongly suggests that, early on, the inhabitants of their cities were a mixture from diverse ethnic backgrounds.
That diversity --indeed, perhaps even the miscommunication and misunderstanding, requiring rethinking and adjustment-- propelled more innovations during the last few thousand years than during the long period of our childhood. And the pace of change accelerates.

Civilization, civic, civil, civility-- each of these English words are descended from a Latin word for city.

civ·il (svl)
adj., among whose definitions are:
1. Of, relating to, or befitting a citizen or citizens: civil duties.
2. Of or relating to citizens and their interrelations with one another or with the state...
4. Of or in accordance with organized society; civilized.
5. Sufficiently observing or befitting accepted social usages; not rude: a civil reply. See Synonyms at polite.

ci·vil·i·ty (s-vl-t)
n. pl. ci·vil·i·ties
1. Courteous behavior; politeness.

If the words we speak to each other are not be viewed as posturing for status, serving only to elicit counter-posturing, and the edifice we seek to build is not to be destroyed by our hubris, then we must embrace that attitude of civilized discourse, civility.

@ shariebeth, thanks for the information about archbang and links. It is definitely something I intend to explore. I'm downloading the latest iso as I write.
My apologies if you were offended. My use of the slang for those of the female gender was intended as a humorous aside paying homage to Rogers & Hammerstein's "South Pacific:"

We got sunlight on the sand,
We got moonlight on the sea,
We got mangoes and bananas
You can pick right off the tree,
We got volleyball and ping-pong
And a lot of dandy games!
What ain't we got?
We ain't got dames!
....
We have nothin' to put on a clean white suit for
What we need is what there ain't no substitute for...

There is nothin' like a dame,
Nothin' in the world,
There is nothin' you can name
That is anythin' like a dame!

IMHO, South Pacific is iconic and prescient, and the song, sung at the beginning of the play by rough and rowdy men, through misdirection introduces the audience to the underlying theme of the play: the vital role of women in shaping the future. Before either the terms "Feminist Revolution” or “Civil Right Movement" were coined, it told the stories of three women caught up in the world of war, a world of bigotry, a world of men. There’s the story of Bloody Mary who is willing to give away everything she has acquired so that her daughter may have a life better than her own. There’s Mary’s daughter whose innocent love and loss evokes our sympathy, even if we are not of her race. And, of course, there’s Nellie Forbush who, to find her place and play her role in life, must evolve beyond her society’s tradition of racial superiority.

A discourse, such as this, employs words: symbols which a part of the brain recognizes as such and can analyze and manipulate. But each word has a life of its own: what it represents to each of us is dependent upon his or her own prior experience with that symbol; and how each of us employs it in communication is dependent on each of our limited powers to analyze and manipulate.

Stories, such as those of the Bible and South Pacific stimulate a different region of the brain, that which appreciates the world-as-a-whole. They take us on a journey, and have us walk in the footsteps of the story’s protagonists so that we each communally share the same experience, and by that shared experience evolve together.

One interpretation of the I Ching views the two principals, Yin and Yang as, respectively, the female-receptive and male-active aspects of reality. So viewed, it is the female-receptive aspect which, having encountered the active, transmutes it into new forms. [Coincidently, one mystical interpretation of Genesis views Adam as the “Creative Urge” and Eve as the “Mother of All Things.”] The Art of Judo is premised on that relationship. You achieve your ultimate objective not by meeting force with force, but by tolerating and receiving the force projected at you and transmuting it.

To be tolerant and receptive of those aspects of others which disturb your view of reality: I would suggest that these are the elements of civility.

So, shariebeth, having read the posts on this thread, I would, with all due respect, suggest that “there’s nothin like a dame” and “we ain’t got dames.”

mikesLr
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