Puppy newbie comments

Puppy related raves and general interest that doesn't fit anywhere else
Message
Author
puppyite

Re: Puppy's jumping-off page

#21 Post by puppyite »

KittyCat wrote:I think you may have missed my point. I was responding to the comment that having funny icons linking to lots of sub-pages can confuse a newcomer that doesn't know what the icons mean. Labeling the icons, i.e. giving them obvious names, would make it less confusing for someone who is trying to figure out what they mean.
As I stated, I agree with you.
One could argue that if the basic principles of usability are so poorly understood then they are not as obvious as they claim to be...
Only people can make claims. :roll:

Improvements in the usability of a web site benefits every visitor, most especially newcomers.

We can agree that usability is poorly understood by those who are ignorant of the basic principals. But the subject is not hard to understand. And the improvements that can result from applying these principals to a web site's navigation can be immense. Which is why many of the most successful web site companies seek advise from experts such as Dr. Jacob Neilsen. :D

User avatar
KittyCat
Posts: 65
Joined: Wed 30 Sep 2009, 01:03
Location: On a blanket in the sun

Re: Puppy's jumping-off page

#22 Post by KittyCat »

puppyite wrote:
KittyCat wrote:I think you may have missed my point. I was responding to the comment that having funny icons linking to lots of sub-pages can confuse a newcomer that doesn't know what the icons mean. Labeling the icons, i.e. giving them obvious names, would make it less confusing for someone who is trying to figure out what they mean.
As I stated, I agree with you.
Then I missed your point. Um. Ops? :oops:
puppyite wrote:
One could argue that if the basic principles of usability are so poorly understood then they are not as obvious as they claim to be...
Only people can make claims. :roll:
People and insurance companies. ;) And I think there is a large number of web sites out there proving that thees basic principles desperately need to be wider spread. I just think it would be sad if the Puppy website was one of them...
[color=darkred]Not a dog person. :P [/color]

dogle
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu 11 Oct 2007, 12:41

#23 Post by dogle »

Thanks for the Nielsen link, puppyite. Required reading, brilliant stuff.

So easy to use his site, and not a **£$%$%*! icon in sight! (GEM brought down great misery and turmoil upon this world, right?) ;-)

Cross thread, (new wiki one), but pertinent - puppyite kindly pointed out some ambiguity in a comment of mine on indexing - thanks - I was looking at the pragmatic rather than the technical side, which brings me back on track:-

Today, cringing with remorse, I had to edit a response to the newbie comment thread to add something good I hadn't known about -

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... &start=171

For pity's sake, if I hadn't known about darrelljons wikibook yesterday, what chance does the poor newbie stand - nix!

It tears me apart that excellent work like darrelljon's can be overlooked, even by me, for want of better resource indexing.

It also tears me apart to think of Puppy noobs crawling back disgruntled to windoze misery just for want of the same.

I think the indexing presentation in Flash's Index of resources for beginners (in this forum) is extremely good for newbies - and me! - and one to which the new wiki needs to aspire - but with the perennial problem of updating - if you're looking, Colonel Schell, could you please consider adding the remaining links in the post linked above.

Square One of indexing remains the Puppy's jumping-off page.

User avatar
Aitch
Posts: 6518
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2007, 15:57
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

#24 Post by Aitch »

mmm

Neilsen's site is very informative, if a little dull, maybe, as sadly we now live in the wizzbang world created in fantasyworld by mediamoguls, and 'instant gratification', and even Puppy has undergone a massive increase in widgets & bling
....so shortage of information has become superfluous disorganised information, and we have just our share, inevitably

I do a lot of research, but still lose links, so it's not just a noobie thing

I've suggested before, an alphabetic/user-selectable-search-term database....

...Yet some noobies don't even find my search thread - so I keep linking it :D

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=29754

My feeling is that there is a tide of change coming soon....

Here's a good idea by hepcatfive, that needs being made aware of...

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... &start=165

Aitch :)

User avatar
Colonel Schell
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon 06 Jul 2009, 22:11
Location: Columbus, Ohio

#25 Post by Colonel Schell »

dogle, Aitch...yes, absolutely. Those links will be included.

User avatar
Colonel Schell
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon 06 Jul 2009, 22:11
Location: Columbus, Ohio

#26 Post by Colonel Schell »

:o w00t! (or is that, w00f!) Double Post! I got an error message that said my connection to the server could not be established, but obviously, I connected after all.

mcalex
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun 23 Apr 2006, 14:52
Location: Perth, WA

#27 Post by mcalex »

In the short term, perhaps, mebbe we just need a forum of 'where is that thread?' questions.

A bit tongue in cheek, but it strikes me this is one of the few fora around where you're not treated like an idiot if you don't show that you've done 100 hrs of your own legwork before asking a question. It seems all the magic tricks being tried (wikis, enhanced search engines, google sorcery etc), don't seem to match the efficiency of simply posting a question in the forum.

puppyite

#28 Post by puppyite »

mcalex wrote:In the short term, perhaps, maybe we just need a forum of 'where is that thread?' questions.

A bit tongue in cheek, but it strikes me this is one of the few fora around where you're not treated like an idiot if you don't show that you've done 100 hrs of your own legwork before asking a question. It seems all the magic tricks being tried (wikis, enhanced search engines, google sorcery etc), don't seem to match the efficiency of simply posting a question in the forum.
Here’s a thought, a thought I have thought before and your post brought it back to mind: What if, and this is a big fat what if especially since it’s likely impossible with this forum software. What if a member could post a question and after it’s answered the OP could just delete the thread? Or what if they could delete a lone post? That way forum members *could*, if they wish, clean up any debris that might otherwise clutter the forum.

Doubtless any moment now someone will arrive on the scene and brand me a heretic (once again) for suggesting things that could cause the destruction of the current world order. :mrgreen:

User avatar
Aitch
Posts: 6518
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2007, 15:57
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

#29 Post by Aitch »

puppyite - Heretic, no, no dunking ponds here!! :lol:

The current [unpublicised] method is to post

e. g. MODS - PLEASE DELETE THIS POST, in RED

...it sometimes doesn't get noticed, so resort to PMs
In the short term, perhaps, mebbe we just need a forum of 'where is that thread?' questions
mcalex, that would be a good idea, if the thread could be deleted after the solution is posted,
....and made use of, by the originator

We really need an alphabetic thread/post database search - he said, again.....

Aitch :)

dogle
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu 11 Oct 2007, 12:41

The Netless .. lest we forget

#30 Post by dogle »

Several recent newbie comments have stressed the need for built-in documentation. Barry's determination to include this was a big plus point in early versions of Puppy v/v the competition.

I have this rather guilty feeling that people like me who now have easy cheap internet access have been all too quick to forget that a great many around the world still do not.

IMHO it is a great pity that the built-in stuff is currently not up to its former high standard - thanks to Aitch for flagging up newcomer hepcatfive's suggestion to the 4.4 thread
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... &start=105
- and really good news to see that technosaurus is already on the case

User avatar
etude
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue 17 Nov 2009, 22:26
Location: Searsport, Maine

another $0.02 from a newbie - edits added 12/5/09

#31 Post by etude »

I agree with the last post: like Ubuntu and variants - which IMHO have lots of somewhat contradictory information, due to it not being updated in a timely fashion -the challenge here is how to get at the basic info I want in the shortest time. Don't mind combing forums for hints, but a release note for the new 4.3.1 distro advising whether it supports scsi disks or not (as boot or simply7 as sd"x") would have been helpful. As it is, I am now under the impression that although the universal installer offers scsi disks as a target for the file system, only the IDE drives on my system will be supported. I guess I need a "puppy" or have to learn how to compile one. I did read the instructions from way back on how to make a SCSI disk bootable but noted there was no AHA-2940 in the code being added to the init scripts.
>>>>>> edit 12/5/09 Turns out the distro I wanted was listed right under the 4.3.1 I downloaded. Guess I shudda looked better. After stepping back and "practicing" navigation between all the help resouces, I'm better able to find stuff now, such as the narrative recommending the _scsi_modems iso.<<<<<<<<<<

An example of being left out in the weeds came as I tried to download and install the 2.0 SeaMonkey. Followed the Linux install instructions, downloaded and extracted, but the ./seamonkey kickoff fails, barking about some shared library it can't find. I have no idea what it needs to be happy. It's in usr/bin, BTW, which has a readme file advertising executables should run from there as it's in the default search path.
>>>>>>>> edit 12/5/09 This is a SeaMonkey problem that others have had. With more perspective under my belt, I now see this is not Puppy "Management's" problem per se. OTOH, the intro docs tout the new package management system so this was a bit bewildering at the time.<<<<<<<<<

So you see, if your target market is guys like me who vaguely remember some solaris command line stuff and are tired of microsoft crapware, it's got to be a little more accessible. Just tell me how to know, and where to find info, not necessarily spoon feed me.

On the plus side, it only took less than an hour from my google search on "small linux" to a live CD running on my old K6 clone, which I had spent many hours trying to force Xubuntu to install on. Keep up the good work.

>>>>>>> edit 12/5/09 Initially I got confused and/or disoriented finding and using the help resources for noobs. That probably comes from expecting all the ramp-up help or links to be in one startoff place, pref. the puppylinux.org home page. It still seems a bit scattered even now, though much better organized than my first perception. *If* the information is available, and practical to present simply, it would be nice if each official distro had more upfront specs on ballpark min hw requirements. A chart of which kernels come with which distros would also be a help. That way I could narrow down the distro choices after determining which kernel(s) are likely to run on the target HW; this seems to be a gating consideration. Authors of "offsite" puplets should be encouraged to provide similar info. This need only be in the form of a simple table and a link to it from the main help resource site. The table should also have a link directly to the download site where the distro can be found. Code tree authors can maintain the links to their sites as changes occur. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Of course, all info would come with appropriate "your mileage may vary" caveats. I am interested in working with principals to produce the suggested tools. Best regards<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

User avatar
`f00
Posts: 807
Joined: Thu 06 Nov 2008, 19:13
Location: the Western Reserve

¢

#32 Post by `f00 »

Thank you, Paul Sheer (and Lobster..) and babaguy's post for reminding me of manuals and such.

..and yes, it's dl-able for easy browsing on your local 'bookshelf' :)

I had to ask "What's a Rute?".

User avatar
Lobster
Official Crustacean
Posts: 15522
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
Location: Paradox Realm
Contact:

#33 Post by Lobster »

The aim of Puppy is not to need documentation. :shock:
Has anyone not terminally geeky ever read a smart phone manual?
Usability will become something worth developing further.

A good example is the Inklite package.
I know how to use Xara and so can use Inkscape - it is obvious.

Mtpaint developers despite reasonable requests
insist that their program is intuitive
It is a brilliant program
but it is not simple or easy to get the best from.

One of Barry's aims for Quirky 1 is that it should 'play any sort of media'
Exactly so. That is end user and noob expectation.

One of the surprising aspects of Puppy involvement
is wanting to be involved.

We have a news site
http://www.puppylinux.org/news/

We have a wiki
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/HomePage

that need constant updating, improvement and involvement
The number of people involved in these projects are small
By the time you have created your perfect plan for perfect documentation
. . . we will have moved on.

Perhaps you can help with documentation? Hope so :)
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

User avatar
yorkiesnorkie
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon 04 Jun 2007, 13:11
Location: George's Island

#34 Post by yorkiesnorkie »

Lobster wrote:The aim of Puppy is not to need documentation. :shock:
Has anyone not terminally geeky ever read a smart phone manual?
Usability will become something worth developing further.

A good example is the Inklite package.
I know how to use Xara and so can use Inkscape - it is obvious.

Mtpaint developers despite reasonable requests
insist that their program is intuitive
It is a brilliant program
but it is not simple or easy to get the best from.

One of Barry's aims for Quirky 1 is that it should 'play any sort of media'
Exactly so. That is end user and noob expectation.

One of the surprising aspects of Puppy involvement
is wanting to be involved.

We have a news site
http://www.puppylinux.org/news/

We have a wiki
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/HomePage

that need constant updating, improvement and involvement
The number of people involved in these projects are small
By the time you have created your perfect plan for perfect documentation
. . . we will have moved on.

Perhaps you can help with documentation? Hope so :)
Hi Lobster,

Well, I'll admit I've never added to the wikka probably because although I've been using Puppy for a couple of years now, since 2.15CE, I still feel like I'm just getting to know Puppy, and Linux. I'm wary of steering someone wrong. I'll take a look at the wikka and see if there is anything there I can contribute to. So, I volunteer.

Overall, I'd say that when I want to find something out I first start looking at the documentation on-line, posts here, and then at other distros, and linux help online. Is that typical?

I'd say that most people, my spouse included - whom I've actually got using Puppy :), just want to use their computer, and don't want to do anything more than push a button. My wife leaves the technical bits to me. She'll never configure wireless for example. While instant gratification has its place, as does the gui - which is useful to a lot of people, I'd observe that as an entry point to linux Puppy is pretty good overall. It has been a very positive experience for me. I've stuck with it though through various difficulties. If information is what people need at the wikka I'll do what I can to add to that if I'm sure I know what I'm talking about.

y.
[url]http://www.busygamemaster.com[/url]

User avatar
Lobster
Official Crustacean
Posts: 15522
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
Location: Paradox Realm
Contact:

#35 Post by Lobster »

I'm wary of steering someone wrong
If something is wrong on a wiki people tend to correct it
- if you have sufficient editors 8)
Anyway don't worry - all help welcome
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

User avatar
yorkiesnorkie
Posts: 504
Joined: Mon 04 Jun 2007, 13:11
Location: George's Island

#36 Post by yorkiesnorkie »

How would you feel about someone going in and re-organizing a topic lets say in a more readable fashion for the target audience.

I'm thinking a topic should have some information in it at the top

Topic: Title
Difficulty: Simple, with Intermediate and Advanced concepts introduced
Applicability: 4.3.1, 4.3.0, 4.0

Editors: name1, name2,

INTRODUCTION

Topic - Simple e.g.

Follow these steps to Perform a Frugal Installation on fat32 - Simple

This topic presumes no previous knowledge of linux or its command line. All instruction will be given.

The following is a walk through of a Frugal Installation. Puppy linux will co-exist on a fat 32 partition with an legacy Windows 98 or 98SE OS.
Steps...a-z

Topic - Advanced e.g.

Compiling Software from Source - Advanced

This topic presumes the user has previous knowledge of the CLI. Not all steps are covered in exacting detail. Additional resources and references are offered for further study.

5 direct steps to compiling - A basic walkthrough
Advanced Concepts
-Modifying the ./configure
-checking for missing dependencies
-Creating a PET file to share with others
-Trimming the fat - What can I safely delete to reduce file size?
-Creating a menu entry and icon
-distributing your PET package

y.
[url]http://www.busygamemaster.com[/url]

bossel6
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun 12 Sep 2010, 21:55
Location: Coos Bay, OR USA

puppy installation complexities

#37 Post by bossel6 »

I read the instructions and felt 5 or 6 failures were most likely before I succeeded in the installation. I wasn't far off- took 4 or 5 tries. I felt the instructions were superb. I'm a 84 year old with cataract infested eyeballs. Patience and persistence is all I got left. I discovered a version 2.00 flash drive outperformed a version 1.00 by a " bunch."

User avatar
Lobster
Official Crustacean
Posts: 15522
Joined: Wed 04 May 2005, 06:06
Location: Paradox Realm
Contact:

#38 Post by Lobster »

How would you feel about someone going in and re-organizing a topic
I am sorry I have only just seen this offer.
Go for it. 8)
You don't need permission just register with raffy
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/UsingThisWiki
Despite tens of thousands of users
and regular offers of help
most work on the wiki is done by Coolpup

You might like to update this wiki too . . .
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Puppy_Linux

I am really rather humbled by bossel6
in the previous post :oops:
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

dogle
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu 11 Oct 2007, 12:41

#39 Post by dogle »

Welcome, bossel6, and thanks.

It's really cheering to receive such comments, whilst so many newcomers continue to report difficulty finding information.

Can you say a little more about your experience e.g. which Puppy version, and did you need to go beyond the built-in information?

dogle
Posts: 409
Joined: Thu 11 Oct 2007, 12:41

#40 Post by dogle »

Gentle thread bump, and a gentle reminder to all - devs especially - that by the generosity of those new to Puppy we continue to receive feedback of superb quality on newcomers' joys and woes, in the newbie feedback thread
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=42593
Many thanks to to all who continue to contribute there.

I find it a bit depressing that, despite magnificent efforts by so many Puppy people (starting with Barry K) to make things easy for the newcomer, the predominant gripe remains 'It was hard to find the information I needed' or words to that effect.

(Yeah, IMHO the curse which has plagued Linux for so long - devs characteristically fail adequately to explain the excellence of their warez to the non-savvy, to the eternal benefit of M$ Corp, right?).

Anyway, the problem continues. Can anything more be done to sort it?

Post Reply