Frugal or full install: which is best for me?

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rone
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Frugal or full install: which is best for me?

#1 Post by rone »

I have an old HP laptop with a 900MHz PIII and 192MB of RAM. I would like to use the laptop and Puppy to do light computing, including general purpose browsing (preferably with Firefox), and initiate a remote desktop to a Windows XP Pro computer. Most importantly, I would like to have a trusted system that I can use to make Internet purchases and do on-line banking. I am not fluent in Linux, but I am a fairly advanced computer user.

I tried the LiveCD and it worked fine. I was able to get wired and wireless networking to work, install Firefox and browse to my heart's content. I am now trying to figure out a few things about installing Puppy on the hard drive. I have read a lot of Puppy stuff over the past few days, but I am still confused about the best approach to install Puppy 5 in my case - frugal or full.

I have an empty hard drive. I have no desire to run a MS Windows partition, but I might want to add a bootable FreeDOS partition later. It sounds like a frugal install would be easier to do and might be easier to identify undesired changes to the system due to malware attack, but a full install might allow better use of the limited amount of RAM.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

stu90

#2 Post by stu90 »

I prefer frugal install myself as it is very easy and quick to update to new versions, to install multiple versions of puppy/puplets and to back up frugal save files in case i brake something.

If you are not using the HDD for anything else why not give both ways a try see what works best for you.

8)

muggins
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#3 Post by muggins »

Like Stu90 I prefer frugal, but it would be better if you had more RAM. Try creating either a swap partition, or swap file, to see the difference.

looseSCREWorTWO
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#4 Post by looseSCREWorTWO »

I also prefer Frugal installs, for the same reasons as listed above. Like muggins says, you should create a Linux-Swap partition of about 320mb, which Puppy will use as extra "virtual RAM" after you reboot.

For online banking etc, the safest and simplest approach is to run Puppy from a CD. At the first pause in the boot sequence press the F2 key, then type
puppy pfix=ram
This tells Puppy to boot up from the CD without using your Save file. Then at the end of the session, when asked, choose NOT to create a Save file. This means that any Internet purchasing or banking you did during that session will not be saved anywhere on your computer, also any Virus or Trojan will not be saved, which denies this malware the opportunity of gaining a foothold on your system.

There is a way to achieve the same thing by running Puppy on a USB Stick. See the Post by Sylvander here:
http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showthread.php?t=75009
More info is available here:
http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showpost.php? ... tcount=223
http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showpost.php? ... tcount=224

Steve
Last edited by looseSCREWorTWO on Tue 13 Jul 2010, 09:50, edited 1 time in total.
Steve

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rone
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#5 Post by rone »

Thanks for your replies. I never though to just install Puppy on the hard disk both ways...

I am concerned that I do not have at least 256MB of RAM for frugal. The LiveCD seemed to work okay though. Maybe just not enough room for future expansion. And, unfortunately, there is not an easy way to add more memory to the laptop without costing an arm and a leg.

I know little about Puppy's built-in boot loader and partition manager. Can I setup bootable partitions of FAT32 for FreeDOS, of ext2/3 for full Puppy, and of ext2/3 for frugal? Can a single swap space be used for frugal, full and LiveCD Puppy or do I need separate swap space for each?

Thanks!

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RetroTechGuy
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#6 Post by RetroTechGuy »

stu90 wrote:I prefer frugal install myself as it is very easy and quick to update to new versions, to install multiple versions of puppy/puplets and to back up frugal save files in case i brake something.

If you are not using the HDD for anything else why not give both ways a try see what works best for you.

8)
Or you install the frugal, and simply use all of the extra drive space as storage (i.e. the drive is /mnt/home/, and many/most files can be stored outside of the pupsave -- such as all your photos, or music, or letters/reports, or....). This also allows you to keep the pupsave quite small, which makes it less painful to retain multiple copies of backups. As LooseScrew noted you can easily boot "pfix=ram", at that point you can copy the pupsave to, say, pupsave-12Jul2010.2fs

When you decide to install new software, copy the pupsave and install the software. If it crashes, reboot to your original pupsave (Frugal Puppy has the fastest system backup of any OS I've ever played with).

looseSCREWorTWO
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#7 Post by looseSCREWorTWO »

Once you setup 320mb of Swap it will be used by Puppy each time you boot it on that PC, regardless of whether you boot from CD or HD or USB. If you do this then you won't need any more RAM. It won't cost you a cent.

BTW: Laptop RAM doesn't cost "an arm and a leg" if you buy it on eBay. Here is some 128mb RAM sticks for sale at $7.99 per stick:
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/128Mb-PC133-133M ... 2a07ff360f

I would try the no-cost option first, which is to create a 320mb Linux-Swap partition. It will improve performance heaps. Then if you fall in love with Puppy like we all have, you might decide to go crazy and risk $7.99 on a stick of RAM. But do your research first. HP have a good website which will tell you the maximum RAM your PC will take, and whether it takes 128mb sticks, or 256mb sticks, or if a BIOS update will enable it to take more.

Try more Swap first. Here is a blow-by-blow description of how:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 01&start=4
Steve

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`f00
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#8 Post by `f00 »

"like we all have" :)

Boot from the liveCD with pfix=ram (so nothing gets mounted, you shouldn't attempt to use any partitioning utility on a mounted filesystem).

GParted is your friend (although it may have a few issues in some pups in development); it is mostly intuitive and easy to use with a basic local help documentation. Give some thought to planning how your parts are done, moving/resizing/etc may be time-consuming once they are populated.

I'm also a fan of frugal (and multisession) - large apps like wine and open office work well as add-on sfs files and help to keep a smallish savefile (much easier to copy/bkp). Excellent idea to have a backup when trialing new software (pets and so on) or making changes, things can get strange if you're adventurous ;)

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RetroTechGuy
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#9 Post by RetroTechGuy »

looseSCREWorTWO wrote: I would try the no-cost option first, which is to create a 320mb Linux-Swap partition. It will improve performance heaps. Then if you fall in love with Puppy like we all have, you might decide to go crazy and risk $7.99 on a stick of RAM. But do your research first. HP have a good website which will tell you the maximum RAM your PC will take, and whether it takes 128mb sticks, or 256mb sticks, or if a BIOS update will enable it to take more.
With a machine "new enough" that it has a 900 MHz P3, I'm betting that it will take at least 256MB memory (it probably uses P133s, incidentally -- most of the newer laptops did).

My old Compaq 333MHz will take 128MBs...

But yes, start with a swap file and see if it works before spending any money on it.

Update: I just completed a test with my 333MHz Compaq Armada 7400. It will boot both 4.12 Retro and 4.31 Retro with a mere 64 MB RAM. 4.31 Retro automagically created a 200 MB swap file.
Last edited by RetroTechGuy on Tue 13 Jul 2010, 02:49, edited 1 time in total.

Sylvander
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#10 Post by Sylvander »


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RetroTechGuy
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#11 Post by RetroTechGuy »

looseSCREWorTWO wrote: For online banking etc, the safest and simplest approach is to run Puppy from a CD. At the first pause in the boot sequence press the F2 key, then type
puppy pfix=ram
This tells Puppy to boot up from the CD without using your Save file.
I like to keep a couple pupsaves in my Puppy folder. Then it prompts me to choose one (or "0" or "<return>" to boot RAM).

However, I set up a pupsave that I use only for banking. No other internet usage allowed with it. Then I reboot and load my general pupsave for regular use.

bones01
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Try for both

#12 Post by bones01 »

I'm currently running lucid as a full and quirky as a frugal. This is working fine, and while I'm using the full install as my main OS, I'm glad to have another system there.

I have had a world of trouble after making some changes to Lucid, so frugal really has some large benefits.

Bones
Dell Latitude D630 running Puppy 5.2.8 frugal, Macpup 525 frugal (if I can get it working again. Sadly, I couldn't get it fixed :? )
Precise Puppy 5.4 live DVD
Precise 5.7.3 on USB

Sylvander
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#13 Post by Sylvander »

1. "I have had a world of trouble after making some changes to Lucid"
(a) Immediately prior to making [risky?] changes to a full install of a Puppy...
Boot into a 2nd Puppy and use either Xfe or [even better] snap2...
To make a [yet another?] backup copy of the folder/file contents of the Puppy partition.
An updated snap2 snapshot takes MUCH LESS additional space and time to do a backup update.

(b) If/when the changes to the Puppy partition contents cause undesired consequences....
You can use Xfe to restore one of the Xfe or snap2 backups.
The Puppy will then be back the way it was prior to the changes.
If you have various Xfe backups or snap2 snapshots, you can choose to go back to the way things were when the backup was made.
I write a log on paper, of all steps completed, with backups in red ink...
And I can see which backup [when restored] would eliminate which changes.

(c) I can do the same by making backups of the pupsave file at various points in time.

Mercedes350se
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#14 Post by Mercedes350se »

I currently have a full 3.01 install on hda1. I also have a 'spare' 488MB as hda4 - used to be swap partition but decided I didn't need it.

Reading the above and some of the links I would like to:

1. Do a frugal install on hda4

2. Automate the pfix=ram step

3. No saves during the session

4. Only save at the end of the session if I so desire, and

5. Have the pupsave on hda4.

This is to obtain a "bankpup 3.01".

Is this feasible or a desirable way to obtain my goal?

I have used the LiveCD and pupsave on a USB stick technique but was unimpressed with the boot up time compared with the full install.

looseSCREWorTWO
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#15 Post by looseSCREWorTWO »

G'day Mercedes350se,
unfortunately you lose control of "saves" when you install to a HD. Puppy goes into a different PUPSTATE and things are written directly to the HD as they happen. The geniuses who invented Puppy give the User more control over "saves" to a Flash Drive because of concerns that a Flash Drive may wear out quickly if treated the same as a HD.

You could do a frugal install to hda4, but with only 488mb of space on that partition you couldn't have a "save" file of more than 256mb and you wouldn't have enough space for SFS files. Being able to use SFS files for big apps like Wine and Open Office is a major benefit of a Frugal Install, as it keeps these large and growing apps outside the "save" file, yet available for use as if they were inside it.

Running Puppy on a USB Stick is slower than a HD, partly because the USB Stick is slower. On older computers with USB 1 Ports, it can get REALLY SLOW because USB 1 runs 40 times slower than USB 2, so you have the slowness of the USB Stick compunded by the mega-slowness of the USB Port.

If you have a desktop computer you might be able to put USB 2 "high speed" ports in to one of the PCI Slots, to give better performance running Puppy off a USB Stick. If you have a laptop, it should be possible to buy a PCMCIA Card (for $15 on eBay) that goes in the Expansion Slot and gives you "high speed" USB 2 ports that way.

Steve
Steve

Mercedes350se
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#16 Post by Mercedes350se »

looseSCREWorTWO

I wasn't sure if a frugal on the HD would work the way I wanted.

Exactly the information I needed.

Thank you.

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#17 Post by Sylvander »

@looseSCREWorTWO
What a good post of Fri 16th you gave us. :D
Really clear explanation of the situation. 8)

"unfortunately you lose control of "saves" when you install to a HD. Puppy goes into a different PUPSTATE and things are written directly to the HD as they happen. The geniuses who invented Puppy give the User more control over "saves" to a Flash Drive because of concerns that a Flash Drive may wear out quickly if treated the same as a HD."
I wish, I wish, I wish...
That just like when you use a pupsave on a Flash Drive...
A HDD install [frugal or full] would permit the user to [choose to] manually save DURING THE SESSION rather than auto-save.
And choose whether to save or not at shut-down.

Is it possible do you think?

looseSCREWorTWO
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#18 Post by looseSCREWorTWO »

G'day Sylvander,
It MUST be possible. The Code is there, used whenever the PUPSTATE is set for a USB Flash install. But to get that Code working with a Frugal install on a HDD we'd need help from someone with top-notch Coding skills.

If someone was able to do this with a "stable" Puppy like 431 and it's Retro versions, it could be marketed as the "Safest Linux for Internet Shopping & Banking". Explaining WHY it's so much safer would be a challenge, though, especially to Windows users. And they would potentially be a HUGE market for such a thing.

At one stage I was using a SD Card (a form of Flash media) in an adaptor that plugged in to the Hard Disk connection of my Toshiba laptop. The Tosh lappie doesn't have a HDD, but with the SD Card plugged in there, it started BEHAVING like it was a HDD. This is a problem, because the constant "saves" will wear out an SD Card quick, just as they would wear out a USB Flash Drive real quick.

I tried to trick Puppy into treating it like a USB Flash Drive (by changing the boot code in menu.lst from pmedia=ataflash to pmedia=usbflash) but it didn't work. Puppy must have detected the SD Card was plugged in to the HD connection, and totally ignored my bullshit pmedia=usbflash line.

I mention this because one way to achieve what you want would be to try and persuade Puppy that the HDD is in fact a USB Flash Drive. My attempt at getting Puppy to treat an SD Card-in-ATA-adaptor as a USB Flash Drive didn't work because (I think) Puppy knew it was plugged-in to the ATA HD connection, not the USB Port.

I wonder if there's any way of persuading Puppy that an ATA Hard Drive connection is really a USB Port? If that were possible, then by changing the boot parameter from pmedia=atahd to pmedia=usbflash it should change the PUPSTATE and give you back control of "saves" during, and at the end of, each session.

Steve
Steve

Mercedes350se
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#19 Post by Mercedes350se »

Maybe this thread is a step in the right direction?

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=349102

looseSCREWorTWO
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#20 Post by looseSCREWorTWO »

Thanks for the info, but those guys are talking about pulling the Linux Kernel apart - which is way over my head. Sylvander's way to prevent Saves is better for me. It only works on Puppy 412 or later and only on USB Flash Installs, but the good thing is you don't need to be Einstein to make it work.
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 393#384393
http://www.pcguide.com/vb/showpost.php? ... tcount=224

PS:
I don't think you're being paranoid to worry about security in relation to Internet Banking. The criminals who will try to steal personal info play a "numbers game" and because 95 percent of the world's computers were running Windows that's what the crooks targetted. However as Linux grows in popularity it will, unfortunately, attract attention from the crooks.

Hopefully before that happens, one of the Puppy Devs will create an Anti-Virus Pet that is simple to install, easy to update and allows us to have a decent Virus Scanner running in the background while we're using Puppy.
Steve

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