Compassion, "Obamacare" style

[PaulBx1]

The first ugly result of Obamacare has appeared:

The behavior of the Idaho Orthopedic Society was far more innocuous. They weren't enlisting government aid to eliminate competition; they were simply trying to get a regulatory body to remove its boot from their necks. However, in the proto-fascist system now afflicting us, the former is entirely acceptable, and the latter is considered a grave offense against the "common good."

http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w158.html

I hope those physicians just quit supplying medical care and go fishing. That's what I'd do.

[Dewbie]

There are a number of regulars on this site who are not from the States.

It would be interesting to hear their opinions about this--a view from outside the fishbowl, so to speak.

[thane]

In the UK I believe, all health care is provided by the government.

In Canada, health care is provided by private industry, but paid for by the provincial governments. As a Canadian on another forum said, for $54 a month he can go to any doctor he wants to, with no co-pays or exclusions because of pre-existing conditions.

My guess (we'll see) is that most people in other advanced countries would find the U.S. health care system primitive and cruel. Obama missed his big chance to fix it, say by expanding Medicare to cover everyone and putting the private insurance companies out of business. I don't know what PaulBx1's problem is -- Obama gave the health care industry pretty much what it wanted.

[KF6SNJ]

Truthfully, its not the job of the government to provide health care in this country. It wasn't written into the Constitution or the amendments. Especially given that the Obama health care plan costs several trillion that we don't have. Where do they expect to get that money? Taxes? Given the current US debt? We can't afford it. What is the current debt at? Goto http://usdebtclock.org and see. Given this information, can the government really afford to pay for health care? I don't think so.

[Dewbie]

Why don't people get this upset about the cost of wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?
I've always found that rather strange.

[thane]

Health care is boring. If it's done right people don't get sick, or they get sick and get treated, then they just go on with their lives.

It's true the health care plan that passed is expensive. It leaves the very inefficient private health insurance companies intact and can't enforce cost controls on providers. It basically tries to expand coverage using the same old clunky system we had before. A universal Medicare-like system would have been more administratively efficient and as the single payer could control costs much more easily. I don't know why Obama didn't push for it. Maybe it's because far from being a socialist he's actually more conservative than a Republican from 40 years ago like Nixon.

[technosaurus]

FYI - President Obama is not a member of the legislative branch (any more) and thus could not pass ANY law - only refrain from veto. Only Congress can make federal law in the U.S.

... but it is the responsibility of the government to defend against ALL enemies: foreign AND domestic ... this includes disease; however I would limit that to communicable diseases that could become epidemics and other health related issues affecting the entire population.

[Dewbie]

I don't know why Obama didn't push for it. Maybe it's because far from being a socialist he's actually more conservative than a Republican from 40 years ago like Nixon.

President Richard Nixon's Special Message to the Congress Proposing a Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories ... posal.aspx

[Sylvander]

I'm in West Lothian Scotland.
A couple of years back...
I experienced a significant health incident.

1. Began to get pains in the abdomen.
Went to the bathrom.
On my knees, head on edge of bath.
Burning up, stripped off, agony.
For what seemed an age, tried to endure the pain hoping it would subside.
Eventually knocked on floor to alert wife down in Out house.
she came up, saw my state, phoned the doctore on her mobile.
Doctor asked me some questions [difficult doing anything, never mind speaking to someone].

2. Doctor arrived within about 3 to 5 min.
She phoned the local hospital for an ambulance.

3. Ambulance arrived within about 5 to 8 min.
Pair of Ambulance people got some covering on me and gave gas for pain relief.
Got me into some seating thingy [wheelchair?] and carried me downstair and out to ambulance.

4. Got to hospital within about 15 min.
Put me on a treatment bed/trolley in intake treatment room and ignored me for MUCH too many minutes.
In agony, and asking for injection of pain relief.
People go back and forth ignoring me and my agony.

5. Finally someone comes, examines me, fits electrodes and makes a display/record of heart behaviour, then gives pain relief injection.
What relief when it took effect.

6. Put in a hospital bed and given a drip feed [can't remember what].

7. Next day moved to a heart ward.
Kept there for 3 days.
Put on a treadmill with electrodes fitted.
They told me I'd had an irregular heart rhythm behaviour.

8. Now take 3 pills every day for the heart problem.
Regular continuing tests by a nurse at the village health centre [10 min walk].

9. All the above health treatment was/is "FREE at the point of need".
Medication FREE because of my age.

10. I have a FREE bus-pass. [SUPEB! ]
I qualify because I'm over 60.
Don't use it a lot, but it's GREAT to have it.
e.g. Wife and self went to visit son and family in Dundee.
2 buses there and back.
Would otherwise have cost us about £40 each [£80 total].
I changed to a different Dentist because my bus travel is free.
Distance to travel is the same, but the cost was previously significantly more expensive.
Going the 15 miles into Edinburgh [to buy something?] is no longer uneconomic.
No need to factor transport costs into the cost of an item.
Can go to the Tesco supermarket in a nearby town [our local village Scotmid isn't up to Tesco standards ].

[8-bit]

Obama did push for medicare type health plan.
But the Republican party was dead set against it in both House and Senate.
So he took what he could get.
Any President, no matter who or what race can only do so much.
He needs the support of the House and Senate.
I would say the people, but it seems that the elected representatives seem to vote with no regard for the people they supposedly represent.
And who gets the blame?
The President.

[PaulBx1]

That balances the fact Presidents always take credit when things go right.

Why don't people get this upset about the cost of wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?

People do get this upset, even more upset, of course. But they ignore what the people want in any case.

Iraqis, I am sorry my government is trashing your country, I really am. But I have no more control over them, than you had over Saddam.

[Dewbie]

But they ignore what the people want in any case.

Yet the people vote 'em right back into office. Go figure.

[loaded]

I live in a country where people can have both ways, either go to public (its all free but quality and availability are sometimes an issue, specially in certain medical areas) or you can go private (usually quality its the same as in public medical care but its way faster to get a Doctor to have a look at you or to get that X-ray done in time).As far as US goes imo the priorities are totally wrong a country that spends $$$$$$$ on weapons, army and so on and spends $ on health care and $ on education (just to name a few) sure makes no sense to me.I mean shouldnt people tax money be invested on developing a better, more solid social structure????If you guys keep this up a few more Katrinas and you´ll be making deals similar to Oil for Food with China.

[obxjerry]

What's wrong with health care in the US? Greed, health care is a business, first, foremost and always. Doctors become doctors to make money. Doctors practice the way they do to make money.

Doctors have a monopoly on health care. You can see someone that is not a doctor for health care, likely better care, less cost to provide, but it will cost you the same because that person must be under the supervision of a doctor. Doctors police doctors and rarely take away licenses because that makes licenses less valuable. A big reason you need a regular doctor is so they can steer you away from doctors that shouldn't be doctors. If you think a doctor isn't compensated when he/she refers you to another doctor, hospital or lab I have some swamp land you need to buy. Personally, I would rather trust a computer to diagnose me and choose logical tests and treatment. I don't see that happening. Can anybody guess why?

Doctors treat symptoms without finding the causes and cures because that is the most profitable. They get most of their ongoing education from drug reps because billions of dollars are made that way. If you want a prescription but don't want to see a doctor you can pay an online doctor. We have health insurance so we don't get sticker shock when we see the bills. You don't mind seeing a doctor if all that comes out of your pocket is a $10 co-pay.

Doctors say costs are so high because of malpractice lawsuits, what they have to do to avoid them and insurance they have to buy to protect themselves. The portion of malpractice awards that go to the injured patient or their family total about 1% of what is spent on health care. They also say they graduate med school with huge debt. That's true. A person in Med school needs money and isn't making much if any but, they will make money in the future. What does that mean in the US? Bankers are standing in line to lend them money. If you think all that debt came from money spent on tuition, books and living small you are very gullible.

My wife and her sister both have gluten intolerance, have had it through decades and dozens of doctors, her sister only recently diagnosed with Celiac, my wife self-diagnosed. If you don't know what that is you likely will in the future. It is diagnosed most places in the world but rarely in the US. If you go to doctors here they will treat the symptoms and associated diseases but won't diagnose the root cause. Meanwhile the damage to your body is going on. Why is it this way?

Is health care a right? Should those that can afford it get better care than those that can't? Those are the wrong questions in IMO.

This is a rant. It is extremely biased. Not even I believe it is 100% true. I would like to see a pendulum swing though.

[PaulBx1]

As far as US goes imo the priorities are totally wrong a country that spends $$$$$$$ on weapons, army and so on and spends $ on health care and $ on education (just to name a few) sure makes no sense to me.

You are mistaken. This country's government spends $$$$$$$ on weapons, $$$$$$$ on health care, and $$$$$$$ on "education". It's just disguised in a quasi-fascist system rather than being more obviously socialist. That is why we are going broke.

I mean shouldnt people tax money be invested on developing a better, more solid social structure????

To put this more accurately, you are asking, "Shouldn't the ruling class steal more money from the peons, to be pissed away on even more boondoggles than we already have?"

Doctors become doctors to make money.

Why, SHAME on them! Wanting to make money, how could they!

Doctors have a monopoly on health care.

Actually it's a government-backed cartel, and it's just become even more "cartelized".

Doctors say costs are so high because of malpractice lawsuits, what they have to do to avoid them and insurance they have to buy to protect themselves.

Insurance is a cartel too. It's all nothing but a big racket, designed to siphon money from the peons.

Stefan Molyneux was talking on one of his podcasts about the nationalization of health care in Canada. The main guy who brought the system in, was asked how he got the doctors there to go along with being made "wards of the state", as I believe he put it. The fellow responded, "I stuffed their mouths with gold."

[2byte]

This is health care in the US, from my personal experience.

This happened in 2002. Economic panic took hold. My employer laid off more than half the work force. Those of us left had to take a 10% pay cut and worst of all our health insurance was canceled. Forget COBRA, we were still employed. Family coverage could be obtained for $240 per week. That's per week folks. So, we were uninsured. 6 weeks later the wife gets appendicitis. Rush to the hospital, operated on, all is well. Three days later we get the bill in the mail. It is over $18,000. We have 30 days to pay or else they will take legal action to collect. We had to cash in our life insurance policies and take out a mortgage on the house to pay this one hospital bill and consolidate our debts. I had the same operation in this very hospital 10 years previously, without insurance, and the total bill was $2,100.

In 2007 my wife has a stroke. Thankfully we have insurance. The bill is only $3,600.00, insurance paid the rest. Once again, 30 days to pay or else.

In 2008 my wife is feeling funny and is afraid she's having another stroke. Daughter takes her to the hospital, a test is run and she is OK. Upon discharge she is led to an office where a woman tells her she must pay the insurance deductible before she can leave. The office door is locked electronically and my wife literally cannot leave. She doesn't have $200 on her and asks to be billed. This offer is refused, the door remains locked, the woman repeats, you cannot leave until you pay. She is literally being held prisoner. She finally calls me at work and the deductible is paid with my credit card, and my wife is allowed to leave.. This is the very hospital that we have gone to for over 30 years, where my child was born, our doctors work, and we have had a good account record with them for the entire time.

This used to be a Catholic run hospital. In recent years it was purchased by a corporation and since then the costs have sky rocketed. This same corporation has bought out almost every hospital in this part of the state, including county hospitals where the poor and indigent used to be able to get treatment at reduced cost.

It's all about money. The insurance companies pay the average price for a procedure in that locale. By owning the majority of the hospitals, the average price can be inflated at will. The average Joe and his employer ends up paying for it.

All this hoopla about health care reform is BS. When all is said and done, the beneficiaries will be the insurance companies and the hospital corporations. What will we the average person get? Higher insurance rates and mandatory health insurance, whether we can afford it or not. Prison if we don't comply. The doctors will probably get the shaft along with the rest of us.

[loaded]

After reading 2byte´s post i felt the most ungrateful person in the world....why?
Well 4 or 5 years ago i got appendicitis too, so went straight to the ER, got diagnosed, wated about 2 hours for the Dr to tell me what was going on (@ this time i was already considering to rush in his officce and start thrashing him for such delay and for not beeing medicated for the heavy pain i was feeling)...after he told me i had a severe infection of the appendix and i would need to have an emergency surgery, took another half hour or so for the nurses to prepare the surgery room, prepare the patient (was a hotie the nurse that shaved me , and i could only think on how slow these people were, couldn´t they see i was in PAINNN).But let´s say after a couple of hours or so my appendix was gone.I woke up the next morning (i got to the hospital @ about 4AM or so) feeling like i´d eaten something poisoned and during the next 4 days or so i could only see the negative side of the whole "shituation" in that hospital (food with no salt, room TV only had 4 channels available and another series of minor things that weren´t really important for my recovery),Truth be told, the whole staff was super professional and caring for entire 5 days i was in that hospital room and i didn´t pay a cent .... yes you´re reading this ...... i didn´t pay a Cent.So comparing 2byte´s experience and my own kinda seems that the US is a 3rd world country and Portugal (one of the poorest countries in the EC) is a dream.


A message to everyone

[noalternative]

Truthfully, its not the job of the government to provide health care in this country. It wasn't written into the Constitution or the amendments. Especially given that the Obama health care plan costs several trillion that we don't have. Where do they expect to get that money? Taxes? Given the current US debt? We can't afford it. What is the current debt at? Goto http://usdebtclock.org and see. Given this information, can the government really afford to pay for health care? I don't think so.

The constitution gives the congress the power to make laws, and levy taxes. The government could afford to bail out bankers and get us into wars that were wrong.

[noalternative]

The first ugly result of Obamacare has appeared:

The behavior of the Idaho Orthopedic Society was far more innocuous. They weren't enlisting government aid to eliminate competition; they were simply trying to get a regulatory body to remove its boot from their necks. However, in the proto-fascist system now afflicting us, the former is entirely acceptable, and the latter is considered a grave offense against the "common good."

http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/grigg-w158.html

I hope those physicians just quit supplying medical care and go fishing. That's what I'd do.

Obama care is bad but it is bad primarily because it is a mandate to buy private insurance and not actually the Canadian the system. If physicians go fishing or it rather than treat people who needs em!! They shouldnt have become doctors if they were in it for themselves.

[noalternative]

Why don't people get this upset about the cost of wars in Afghanistan and Iraq?
I've always found that rather strange.

We do get upset! The right pays people to post on these topics so we Americans look more right wing than we are.