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The time now is Mon 20 May 2013, 12:55 All times are UTC - 4 |
 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc |
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So ... This is it? Puppy is dead?
Moderators: Flash, JohnMurga |
 
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01micko
 Joined: 11 Oct 2008 Posts: 7018 Location: qld |
Ok.. "Boom! Boom!" did not really add much to this discussion for some. I hear a lot of "let's get organised", "let's do this and that"... ok, then what. Do we still have Puppy? I don't know about that. Puppy has been described as "spirited", "frisky", "playful" and probably many other adjectives but those certainly spring to mind for many of us. Will it still be these things with a bunch of organisation? tombh left Puppy at about the time I started my rants on this forum. He was a bit disappointed in the way Puppy was heading so he left. I say "good on you mate". As far as I know he was a well respected dev around here. He is making a carreer out of Linux so I respect that. At that time there was a huge discussion going on about "organisation" and "committees" and so on. It was around the time when Barry first announced his intentions. There have been lots of these kinds of discussion. Just browse the forum. I learned to keep my nose out of them! (woops, got involved... dang!). The best thing I can do for Puppy is keep using it, keep learning and enjoy! While it's fun I will be here. So, if Puppy is going to become some bureaucratic monster then to me it will become an old dog. Just remember, many of the other "top ten" distros have corporate backing and my puny little bash skills would be absolutely useless to any of them! Keep the faith! Boom! Boom! _________________ keep the faith  ..  |
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WhoDo
 Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 4441 Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia |
Ok, so that makes it mutual then.
Barry was semi-retired, now fully retired since his pension has come through, and living in a small house in outback Perenjori, WA. He wrote and created EVE (graphics program) and Puppy Linux as a hobby to while away his time in between visits with his family, including his daughter, and to continue to be a productive member of society in his own way. It may surprise you that there are people in the world who can GIVE without expecting to RECEIVE in return. IMHO Barry Kauler is one of those. He sees a need or an opportunity and does what he can with the gifts he has to resolve the need or grasp the opportunity for the benefit of others. He would be the first to tell you that he doesn't need anything for himself. He even donates new computers to India with any spare cash he has made from his hobby. The process of giving in the context of the gifts Barry has necessarily involves putting his creation out in the world for others to use, or not, as they see fit. He has literally asked for NOTHING in return since day 1. Even though he didn't have to, or need to, he has also made himself available to listen to what others want and need and to try to provide that within the parameter that his hobby must remain FUN for him as well as others. Your statement, " I would imagine Barry presented it to the world at large looking for help, looking for devs, looking for testers, looking for publicity. If not, none of us would be here today in this debate.", is a logical fallicy, being based as it is on a false premise; that Barry's "gift" had some strings attached. It didn't. He has always said that we could take it or leave it as we like. It's just his hobby. Nothing more. Is that so hard to understand or accept? Try reading some of his blog and the material on puppylinux.com for confirmation.
Yes, that's true. That doesn't mean that either the "favor" or the "criticism" are justified. Barry has for years ignored unfair criticism without reaction. I tried filling his shoes for a mere 6 months and couldn't avoid reacting eventually. He has my complete admiration for his forbearance. Why should he now be criticised for protecting himself from further criticism of his HOBBY, deserved or otherwise? I find his much delayed reaction entirely justifiable in the circumstances, regardless of whether or not the criticism was warranted. He is NOT Frankenstein; owing a debt to society for the "sins" of his monster! Sheesh!
Hmmm... one right, one wrong IMHO. I have had far more than a free OS from Puppy. I have had hours and hours of delightful tinkering, problem-solving, creativity and FUN. I didn't expect that but I got it and I'm grateful. I believe I owe Barry for giving me that opportunity, as do many others. To adopt the attitude of a "taker", that he gave it away so I don't "owe" him anything, misses the true gift. I say "Thanks for sharing, Barry".
Who said Barry and the devs were not "respectful" of the contribution that users make to the Puppy development effort? There is a difference between respecting the efforts of those wonderful users who test the various releases and offer their constructive criticisms and feedback, and being coerced by constant criticism into taking a particular direction with the project. It is Barry's hobby, and that of the volunteer devs, and not some user-driven attempt to make everyone's ideal OS. As you said, "The product was freely put out to be used or abused by (them) at (their) own risk."
See, again you have started with a the correct answer and followed that up with an improbable conclusion drawn from it. Whoever said Barry and the devs "...don't care and have no intention of following through with anything the users want"? They may not be driven by what users want but that doesn't mean they don't listen and, if it interests them to do so, respond by providing some of the requested features and benefits. Just because users don't drive Puppy's direction doesn't necessarily mean that they have no impact. Nothing is ever all black or all white and gray or shades of gray is not all that lies between those two extremes. There is a whole rainbow of possibilities that can be overlooked if you adopt the black/white polar view.
Now we come to a serious parting of the ways. I and many others here do not share your "social source of reference". We do not all equate "success" with "rankings" or "popularity". Barry is concerned with the latest Puppy rankings, yes, but I don't believe his concern is with popularity so much as what falling popularity says about the usefulness of his gift for others. He doesn't need the users but that doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy their satisfaction with his freely given gift. Remember, too, that Puppy is called Puppy because it was named for his long time companion; a chihuahua called "Puppy". I'm sure Puppy's popularity probably has some emotional overtones for Barry. It ensures his faithful companion of many years will not be forgotten. That's Barry's way of giving back the unconditional love that his companion showered on him. He has staunchly resisted changing the name of his distro for the sake of more popularity. It is a mistake to overlay our own thoughts, ideas and values on the actions and reactions of others IMO.
Maybe. I freely admit I don't have the patience with fools that many others have. That's not to say you are a fool, only that I don't have much patience with them when I find them. I can accept my "feet of clay", but can you? I came to Puppy because it met a need. I was rebuilding discarded PC's for charity and we couldn't afford to buy licences for MIcro$oft products. We started using Ubuntu (4.10 then 5.04) and Mandrake but both were just unusable on the old machines we had to donate. I discovered Puppy by searching the Distrowatch rankings for small and fully featured Linux OS's. We tried Damn Small Linux and Damn Small Linux Not, but they weren't very refugee-friendly (I coined that term "Windows refugees" by the way). In the end we found that we could customise Puppy to look like Windows XP and so lessened the culture shock for the users for whom we built the machines. That's how I came to develop the EZPup add-on, and many of the Icewm themes I created. The bottom line is the rest of us are "on them" (meaning Puppy and its derivatives) because they meet OUR needs, not those of Barry and the devs. I find it hard to understand why you and some others find it hard to fathom that. It's like you are saying "Hey, you gave us this great OS but it doesn't do exactly what we want; so FIX IT!" How reasonable is that attitude? If I have misjudge you in that assessment, I apologise. It is, after all, only my interpretation of words in an imperfect communication medium. Hopefully I will at least have made my thought process, with which you disagree, a little clearer. _________________ Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't! SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com |
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WhoDo
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 4441 Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia |
You are most welcome. ttuuxxx was one of the lead developers on that project and it wouldn't have come to fruition without him and the others. I just provided the direction and some of the polish.
Thank you, Steve. Your story gives me a very good feeling about my hobby. It gratifies me to know that someone else is getting something worthwhile out of what we did for fun and in my case my effort to repay a personal debt. It seems to have given you a renewed purpose, too, and for that I am most grateful. When I was rebuilding PC's for donation to charity, it was as the leader of a Work for the Dole team here in Newcastle. At first the participants were resentful that they were being used as "cheap labour" to earn their dole. Eventually they all came to appreciate that it is what we give, regardless of how little or how much we have, that is the true measure of our worth in society. Most of my participants went away knowing they were worth far more as individuals than the sum of their dole payments could ever convey. _________________ Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't! SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com |
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cthisbear
Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 2942 Location: Sydney Australia |
john biles is a bloke that's had his Puppy disappointments. Even uses Mandriva??? at times. Renegade. There are well over 50,000 downloads of his last 2 Teenpups. Plus his previous form and other sites. http://linux.softpedia.com/progMoreBy/Publisher-John-Van-Gaans-6558.html Say if only 10% use it regularly...how many comps were saved from landfill. Still John carries on and hoists the flag for Puppy. Probably against his own better judgement. For the users that whinge....how many are grateful This bloke is an Aussie in the true spirit. http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=407394#407394 " I also love to hear for users like yourself that TEENpup was useful and not a waste of my energy after all. :D " """""" 01micko is another one. Hidden talents this one. Mr 486...wonderful. Is it worth it? (Absolutely!!! http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=36843 His website: http://users.tpg.com.au/01micko/ http://users.tpg.com.au/01micko/theshed.html But he can't shutup Total posts: 3146 ////////////// Puppy is about making a better world. WhoDo wrote: " He doesn't need the users but that doesn't mean he doesn't enjoy their satisfaction with his freely given gift. " " Puppy is called Puppy because it was named for his long time companion; a chihuahua called "Puppy". " """""""" And many people laughed at Puppy, derided us for the name. Now they aren't laughing so much when they step in our puddles. If you don't like dogs keep away from Paris. Such a romantic place...if you are wearing gumboots. Chris. |
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WhoDo
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 4441 Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia |
Ah, Chris. Still making me laugh. You are definitely a unit, mate. 
_________________ Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't! SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com |
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looseSCREWorTWO
Joined: 04 Feb 2010 Posts: 812 Location: Australia, 1999 Toshiba laptop, 512mb RAM, no HDD, 431 Retro & 421 Retro |
From the messages received since my last couple of Posts, I now realise how much emotional attachment many Devs and Users have with Puppy. Phrases like "blood sweat and tears went into that Code" speaks volumes. If Puppy is the "child" then Devs have a parental attachment and how does a parent react when they believe their child is threatened? The parent reacts ferociously, that's how. Which explains some recent Posts on this Thread. A thread which is provocatively titled - Is Puppy Dead? lguleder is not to blame for this. iguleder has a "parental" attachment to Puppy like all the other Devs, so when Barry K shut down his blog lguleder saw that as a threat to Puppy and reacted with "parental ferocity". Barry K is not to blame for shutting down his blog. Subconsciously Barry K views Puppy as his "baby", and when events led him to question the future viability of Puppy he also reacted with "parental ferocity" and shut down his blog. The people who Barry K blames for this are not to blame either. What they said and did was also motivated by "parental ferocity" and when acting from "gut instinct" there is always a danger of over-reaction. This applies to everyone who has invested so much time and trouble and love into the birth and development of Puppy. Puppy is a child of many mothers and many fathers. Users are like the God-Parents. One step removed from the "blood sweat and tears that went into that Code", yet the Users also have an emotional investment in Puppy. They try to "sell" Puppy to their friends, knowing all the while that there may be sniggers behind their back from the ignorant. But then occasionally a friend will "convert" to Puppy and that makes it all worthwhile. We all love Puppy. That's why these discussions can so easily turn nasty. Emoticons do not replace the nuances of face-to-face interactions. Someone makes a joke, but without the hint of a smile and the raised eyebrows, someone else takes it as a personal insult and then one thing leads to another and before you know it these 2 brilliant people (I know youse are brill cos youse both luv Puppy) end up hating each other. I luv youse all. Even wearing Gumboots in Paris and having an Enver Hoxha sort of moment when the Doover-Lacky won't compile. Steve Last edited by looseSCREWorTWO on Sun 04 Apr 2010, 01:28; edited 2 times in total |
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shariebeth
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 271 Location: Florida |
@WhoDo Much to ponder in your posts, thank you for taking the time to address my comments in depth. A few things jump out at me I think you have misunderstood, or that I disagree with. Mostly I think you have misunderstood my intentions or reasons for my words, possibly looking at them through assumption colored glasses? Most likely I will comment again as more settles in my mind. (Yes I know you are thrilled  )
1. I am not asking or demanding for puppy to change to suit me. Personally I am thrilled with it as it is. (However I am aware that things need to change and grow or they become stagnant) Many comments are based on what I have seen here and have read here. I am aware of some of the struggles of the past, forums do make for very interesting reading. Mostly I have observed. Most of my comments and suggestions are based on a desire to not lose Puppy. Do I thank Barry (and the rest of you with the ability and desire to work on puppy) for puppy? You better believe it. 2. I absolutely positively unequivocally do not believe that ratings, popularity, or money measures success. I do not share that "social source of reference" as you call it. What I was trying to say, is I have seen multiple people worry over the ratings, and it certainly seems like some people do consider that important. My comment was directed to those people: If that is important to you, you need the users to accomplish that. 3. I hope he never changes the Puppy name! It's what stood out like a beacon, in the pile of so many other distros to look at. My thought at the time was..."How can I possibly not check THIS one out?" (ahem, I have 6 rescued dogs...if that explains it just a little  )
4. I am most definitely a windows refugee. Heh. 5. I am curious how one can release a distro, or anything really, to the public and not expect some "fallout". Once you put yourself in the public eye, you are fair game. Well maybe not so fair, but it is what it is. In this case, the fallout is people love puppy. They want more. They want it this way, they want it that way. Change it, don't change it. Of course it is overwhelming, but it is part and parcel of creating something great and sharing it. The next logical step is deciding if he wants to let it expand and grow. Obviously he did. Given he has no cryptonite, he will need help. Developers, testers, users. Isn't this the point it stops being a personal hobby? Isn't there a bit of admittance in the growth that it is somewhat about the users? Even if the goal is to make it better for all those needy people he is donating to...aren't the "regular" people just as useful and helpful to knowing what the people he wants to help want and need too? No matter what his personal wish is, everyone here HAS helped (even the demanding and whinging ones in their own way-it is just as useful to know what doesn't work). Does it help at all to know that these people who Barry, you, and the other devs see as demanding and with expectations come across that way because they love what they have? Even the devs who have been upset...are upset out of love for puppy, not a desire to ruin it or upset the applecart. This is my point...some of you need to step outside of your own boxes and see why puppy comes to this point so many times. I think it is a legitimate fear that Barry will go away, and Puppy will fizzle off into too many unguided directions and spread itself much too thin to ever stay solid, steady, reliable, and long term. I know that bothers me. It took me a long time to find Puppy, I am not happy with it having an uncertain future, and don't want to give it up without a fight. |
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James C
 Joined: 26 Mar 2009 Posts: 4741 Location: Kentucky |
Since there is no real purpose to this thread, or any of the other Chicken Little threads we've periodically had to endure, and no opinions are likely to be changed...........why not just end this thread now.This back and forth is making me dizzy.
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jemimah
 Joined: 26 Aug 2009 Posts: 4309 Location: Tampa, FL |
WhoDo, thank you for your thoughtful comments, and patience. I agree with James C - I think this debate will wear on into eternity regardless of the quality of the logic used. Those who are attempting to civilize, organize, democratize, and commoditize Puppy, and who think that complaining is a relevant contribution, will continue to think that long after all the devs have left in disgust or despair. |
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shariebeth
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 271 Location: Florida |
It is this sort of response that is highlighting the different reference points and rather than helping, it just widens the gulf of misunderstanding and upset. It certainly does not represent the developer base well at all. |
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Trobin
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 872 Location: BC Canada |
Becauase it will just pop up again, under some other guise, when Barry, or some other major developer, does something like Barry has done. Might as well get it out in the open now. _________________ http://speakpup.blogspot.com |
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WhoDo
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 4441 Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia |
I certainly don't mind civil debate, shariebeth. And yes I am a little "thrilled" at the prospect of continued reasoned discussion of philosophical options for the future of Puppy. It's my baby too in many ways.
No, you are not demanding change. Others have. I have twice lead the Puppy development effort; once with 2.15CE which was a community edition, and I fancy the beginning of Barry's search for a way to hand off Puppy development and so ensure its future, and once with 4.2x Deep Thought. On both such occasions there have been those who genuinely wanted to help with constructive criticism and others who saw a way to get someone else to develop Puppy into what they or someone they cared about specifically wanted. I can't blame either group, but I could only accede to the hopes and desires of the former without taking the project in a direction away from what someone or some other group saw as desirable. In the end I had to make some choices; such is the lot of the project team leader. Barry has been in that same quandry since Puppy 2.0 at least, maybe as far back as 1.07, and long ago decided to please himself first. Since it's his hobby I can't blame him for that, but I didn't have that luxury. I stepped into the role apparently for the same reasons that you and others are now questioning Puppy's structure and direction; I wanted Puppy to survive Barry's retirement (or burnout) and I wanted Barry to have time to see a future too. I've learned that nothing lasts forever, but like you I didn't want it to go down without a fight. I didn't realise in the beginning, though, how acrimonious a fight it could become with some people willing to employ any strategy to get their way whether or not it was at the expense of others.
Point taken. I just wanted you to be sure of the nature of the man that I perceive is Barry Kauler. I defend him and his motives because I firmly believe that he and they are worth defending. Yes, he is human and, despite a long fuse (far longer than mine), he does sometimes react to protect himself. That's human nature and a survival instinct.
Oh yes, that does explain it a little. I avoided Puppy for a while on the basis of the name and that was my loss. I couldn't see how it could be a "serious" distribution with a name like that, and I needed a serious solution to our problems. Later I learned that it wasn't "serious" but that it was also just what I and my group needed. It was easy to learn that Puppy is flexible enough for anyone; all you have to do is be prepared to make the changes yourself if necessary. If you don't know how then you can learn, and most here are only too willing to teach an eager student. Just ask 01micko, trio and others.
So was I. I never subscribed to the belief that Bill Gates is the Devil incarnate, but I do believe he is the quintessential opportunist who often needs others to miss those same opportunities in order to be successful. I find that more than a little parasitic and in saying that I'm not at all sure that I've overplayed the analogy!
Unfortunate but true.
Barry trusted me with his "baby" when he offered to let 2.15CE be released as an "official" edition. I was very flattered but also worried that my project wouldn't live up to what had gone before. I guess it did because he trusted me with the baby again for Deep Thought. I volunteered that time because I could "feel" Barry's frustration at being tied to a regular release schedule to satisfy the user community while all the time wanting to spend time on Woof, Upup and later Quirky. I stepped up to buy him that time, and for a while after I handed the reins back I felt like I might have let him down. I guess he was hoping he could step into the background permanently and just do what he does best without worrying about keeping the Puppy releases rolling out. I guess it was like a false labour in a way; Barry was trying to give birth to a new model for Puppy development that left him with the freedom to return to being a hobby developer. In a very real way, we both learned that the community wasn't ready to take over and give Barry that opportunity. One day it will be, I'm sure. Yes, you cannot have a successful distribution without user support but you can produce a successful distribution without user direction. If you turn one way, some users will say "that's not for me any more" and off they'll go. Others will say "now that's more like it, I'll invest some more of myself in this new direction". It happened following both releases for which I was responsible for direction. Barry didn't want form at the expense of substance, but I think I showed him and others that Puppy could be "pretty" and still be Puppy. In some sense I feel great pride that Puppy has been markedly different in many ways after each time I've had a hand in its direction, without losing its core focus as expressed in the original Puppy philosophy.
Oh, I know that for sure and I'm pretty certain Barry and most of the devs do as well. There are a few selfish users who have attempted to mould Puppy into what they believe it should be. I've steadfastly resisted that. There are others who are genuinely but mistakenly convinced that volunteer developers will accept being "organised" and "directed"; most of them won't, precisely because this is a hobby not an organised effort to produce something specific like the world's best OS. If that happens it will, for most, be a happy by-product. Those same well-intentioned users usually end up feeling that without that model of organisation Puppy will never be any more than a hobby distro. I'm sure that's why Ladislav at Distrowatch has never really accepted Puppy as a Top 10 distro. All Barry says, and I agree, is that the chaotic model of development Puppy follows often produces the most innovative results. A Puppy without innovation is just another flavour of Linux. It's the innovation that makes Puppy special. That's not to say there is no place for organisation and a less chaotic development process. That's why Barry has always offered to support efforts to fork his project. Grafpup was the first such successful fork but it doesn't have to be the last. I think Macpup may eventually become a true fork. We'll see. Mainsteam Puppy has become fairly well controlled by the Woof process, too. I'm sure Barry's desire to introduce Quirky is a deliberate attempt to reintroduce some innovative thinking. I just wish I was clever enough to be involved right along with him and the other devs like gposil, Patriot, kirk, rerwin, ttuuxxx, jesse, zigbert, etc. (please don't be offended guys if your name isn't there in that very ad hoc list). Why does Puppy "come to this point so many times"? I don't know. Maybe people feel that order and stability are co-dependent. If Puppy gains order and stability, will it still be Puppy? I agree with 01micko on that; I'm not so sure it will. There is a big difference between order and stability vs. direction. Puppy has direction now because Barry is at the helm again. That is NOT a criticism of technosaurus and his progress with 4.4 development. I know enough about how much it takes to lead the project to never be critical of someone who has genuinely tried to do the same. There have been pretenders though, seduced by some imagined "glory" in the role, but they usually give up when they realise just how much work is involved. I think you are right that it is the element of "fear" that we may all lose what we value so highly. I think the only counter to real fear is faith that you can face it and survive. No, that's not rational, but neither is fear! _________________ Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't! SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com |
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Lobster
Official Crustacean  Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 15109 Location: Paradox Realm |
Puppy dead? I didn't even know he had distemper . . . Because the Puppy core of recognition scripts and woof building prowess is so stable and developing further, Puppy can afford to expand and cross breed Warren (WhoDo) is right, his influence modified and enhanced the look and feel of Puppy His people skills - even through the Net are excellent because they are human I sincerely hope a leisurely Woof Puppy 'Whodo with added Ttuuxxx' might (just maybe) be a future option . . .
We do have an expanding array of maturing and grown up talent from Amigo to Zigbert (Pizzasgood grew up on Puppy and hedgehogs) 
Puppy has more vitality, diversity and frisky innovation than ever We need some more up to date promos . . . http://tmxxine.com/p4/img0.html Play, have fun Use Puppy - more fun than a basket of Puppies _________________ Puppy WIKI |
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Billwho?
 Joined: 06 Dec 2005 Posts: 570 Location: still "In The Dog House" East Coast Oz Trialing 4.20 |
First and most important. This is not a dig at anyone, it is a legitimate question I really do want answered. If this comes across as a dig please modify my wording to remove any insult it contains. What are the alternatives to these items and where can I get them? 1/ Flash 2/M$ Office (Abiword, Gnumeric etc are not good enough at the conversion nor was KOffice last time I tried it.) 3/ Java 4/ ZEdit32 (for programming Mobitech electronic destination signs). 5/ HELEN (for programming Hanover electronic destination signs). 6/PGM 2020v254 (for programming 2020 model Tait 2000 two way radios) These are only the first items that came to mind while I was writing this post. While the last three items in this list are specialised programmes that I do not expect to be part of a Puppy itself, I would still love to get my hands on FOSS software that will replace them. Thus removing yet another reason I am still dual booting my laptop with window$98 and Puppy. ( It would have been XP or NT2000 but I need to be able to drop down to pure DOS for the two ways) _________________ Linux = Learning through doing   
The learning curve may be steep but there is a light at the end of the tunnel. You just have to pass the occasional oncoming train to get there. |
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nooby
Joined: 29 Jun 2008 Posts: 9385 Location: SwedenEurope |
Thanks to Whodo and thanks to looseScreworTWO
Yes indeed. Even I whom are the least able to get what I use love and defend Puppy. There is nothing like it. A unique linux distro indeed. _________________ I'm a noob so I use Google Search of Puppy Forum |
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