So ... This is it? Puppy is dead?

[WhoDo]

to guide the geniuses who CAN code so that they code what the users and potential future uses want and need!

This is the attitude that causes the problem. The is what is meant by "entitlement" and "welfare mentality." ...[snip]... But the ultimate reason for coding is because the euphoria of problem solving is addictive. And we seek more and harder problems, like an addict desperate for a fix. ...[snip]...

Programming is a very personal search for self actualization...[snip]... so when users somehow get the idea that any of it is "about them," it's almost a laughable misunderstanding. It's such a wonderful feeling when I discover that other people like and use my work - but even if everybody hated it, I would continue to do the work in private...[snip]...The benefit comes from being able to bring forth my own vision into existence. Few people can tell me what this vision is better than me, but I often invite dialog with the purpose of generating new ideas, because I like nothing better than new ideas. I collect ideas in my mind like a numismatist collects coins, cherishing them, polishing them, sometimes trading them in for new ones.

To sum it up, and cut it short: no open source developer has any obligation to users whatsoever.

Ah, vindication! I love it!!! One of the frequent questions from "users" when I was coordinating the 4.2.x series development project was "why don't you listen to us?" The degree of presumption in that question is just staggering! I felt like saying "NO is also an answer"! Maybe I did, once or twice.

[rant switch = on]
I've been saying for years, from the perspective of a project leader managing volunteer developers, that you simply cannot TELL volunteers what to do! You can ask. You can beg. You can bribe or encourage; but you can't TELL. They do what they do because it is fun! If they did it because it was what the users wanted and that's not what they also wanted it would no longer be fun; it would be work! Work requires payment because it is a chore not a pleasure. Even professional coders prefer their own projects to the ones they're paid to produce! Fun vs. work! It's so simple I have trouble understanding why so many others simply don't or won't get it!

I'm sure there are people out there lucky enough to be paid for what they enjoy doing. That said, let's not get confused between simply coding (the act) and coding (the realisation of ones own ideas). The former is usually work. The latter can be great fun if you're a coder!

I'd say that jemimah is probably a Jungian introvert; needing only the self-satisfaction of solving a problem or realising an idea. There are coders who are Jungian extroverts; ttuuxxx for example. They need at least someone outside of themselves to appreciate what they do or they move on. I think Barry is probably more like jemimah than ttuuxxx in that regard, but I'm sure there is an element of the extrovert in his make-up; otherwise he wouldn't be so concerned with apparent criticisms on his blog.

Either way - introvert or extrovert - when it stops being fun volunteers will quickly find another outlet for their creative natures to explore. Barry did it for a while with Woof and Quirky and feeling refreshed by that was moved to offer to rejuvenate his original baby that was Dingo (4.x series). All I can say is that, at the moment, Puppy is NOT dead, the sky is NOT falling and Barry and the other devs are NOT motivated by what users want unless they want to be!

Barry's blog is now locked. I think Barry will come to regret that because it presently isolates him from a whole bunch of other coders who can feed his creative ideas, as he does theirs. All the same I'm not surprised. I don't think ICPUG and Jota were at all unreasonable in their posts, but they weren't necessarily feeding Barry's creativity either. "Erk! That tastes bad so I'd better spit it out!" was probably his unconscious reaction. I'm sure he will find another way to get valuable feedback to nourish his creativity.

To the "ordinary users": by all means make your feelings known, but don't expect that they will be shared or acted upon. That's a matter of choice and the choice is always with those who have the ability, not those who need it. Don't be misled that this project is about your wants and needs; it isn't. Enjoy it for what it is or move on. If you need something changed, fixed or updated and no-one else seems inclined to oblige you in that need, find a way to get it done yourself or not; that's your choice. Whatever you do, do NOT nag or whine to get your way. The people you nag or whine at may chose to move on themselves and that will be everyone's loss, not just yours!
[rant switch = off]

If you've read this far, thanks for "listening". If not, no problem. To those who may be tempted to accuse me of being an "armchair psychologist", I freely admit I'm no expert. As a professional educator and manager for over 40 years, however, I believe I do have some insight into people and what makes them "tick". Take that FWIW and nothing more.

Cheers

[shariebeth]

To the "ordinary users": by all means make your feelings known, but don't expect that they will be shared or acted upon. That's a matter of choice and the choice is always with those who have the ability, not those who need it. Don't be misled that this project is about your wants and needs; it isn't.

Then don't ask us what we want and need. Don't ask us to test your projects and "Give feedback please!" Don't complain when people don't (I have seen many a volunteer dev, and Barry too, complain that nobody gave feedback and therefore they are dropping the project due to lack of interest).

Make up your minds what you want.

But asking for our feedback then calling us selfish greedy demanding leeches for giving it especially when it isn't what you wanted to hear puts you all lower than the welfare and entitlement labels you are sticking on us.

[raffy]

HO HUM...

In that page linked to by Barry, I also said that being in the "top ten" of distrowatch has its own problems, certainly like this one.

Anyway, there are devs and users: Devs solve problems, and users want to go to devs for their own problems.

But NO - Puppy enables users to be devs of some sort, so they can therefore solve their own problems. This must be one reason for the ascending rank of Puppy in distrowatch.

What we wanted to avoid is for devs to be treated as if they are servants of users. They are not - look at the big print: NO WARRANTY, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

The success of Open Source is that individuals (devs) are able to do what used to be done by corporate entities. And that these devs (individuals) are here with us is something to be grateful about.

Am certainly grateful that Barry has been picking up the pieces for Puppy 5, and that jemimah is here leading development for puppeee.

Am I a user? Yes, and I try to represent user interest from the education field.

Do I do my share of the work? Yes, I try to be admin of puppylinux.org, and shortly, puppeee.org. I take part of the load of devs so that they can focus more on the important issues. Shouldn't everyone do as well?

Do I complain? HO HUM, there must be better things to do, OK?

And if other people here do what I have been planning to do, that is already a large benefit in being here.

[WhoDo]

So ... is Puppy dead?

No.

... if the community-effort to build Puppy 5 is all about using the junky Ubuntu packages, Puppy lost it. It won't support old hardware and Ubuntu's huge size and bloat won't do wonders with Puppy. This is no longer Puppy. Just a silly Lubuntu-like distro with JWM.

You've missed the whole point of Upup, which is to bring the speed and lightness of the Puppy architecture to the users who like the look and feel of Ubuntu, and access to the Ubuntu package choices. It is NOT about making Puppy bloated or being an Ubuntu derivative or clone.

The current development model of Puppy is bad and it simply doesn't work. People invent nifty improvements here and there, which eventually appear only on one puplet and get lost in the heaps of topics of these huge forums. Puppy remains old, stupid and stands in the same place for years instead of rushing forward and adopting new technologies. This cannot happen in a normal distro. Especially not in the 10th most popular one.

I don't think you have any real idea what you are talking about here. Debian is a classic Top 10 distro that made its name simply be standing "in the same place for years instead of rushing forward and adopting new technologies." Puppy sits fairly happily in its own niche, neither being at the technological bleeding edge like Tiny Core or Zenwalk nor lagging behind so far as Debian.

The Puppy "base", all the architecture-independent data, stuff like the directory structure, desktop files, all that, must be stored on some git repository or something, so people can change it. That's true open development model. Puppy, until now, was developed in a very close and stiff way.

If you had been following Puppy development you would know this is already the case. Git was tried and discarded as not suiting Puppy's purposes but it has been replaced with a more Puppy-friendly system that is part of the Woof build system.

Also, Puppy mustn't include Flash or anything that is not free. That is bad for Puppy and good for corporations, who find another crowd of unwilling users. Alternatives exist. That's one of the reasons why free software exists at all.

You have missed the original Puppy philosophy; it "just works" for most users. A totally FOSS philosophy sacrifices that. You may be passionate about that but most users just want something that works. Puppy devs continue to investigate the alternatives and offer them when they are considered mature enough to fill the bill; not before. Try OpenSUSE if you want a FOSS-only distribution, but be prepared for some things that work poorly at times or others that simply don't work at all.

I'm sorry, but if Puppy goes to the Ubuntu direction, I'm outta here. There's nothing I can do anymore. I've written many articles for the wiki (see my sig), many guides, packaged software and I truly believe that I did a lot for the Puppy community. I feel betrayed. I will NOT support Ubuntu, Adobe or any company. And I will not assist Puppy on its way to the grave.

So be it. I think you're wrong but that's my right just as it's yours to leave if you wish. Ubuntu exists at the top of the distro rankings, so it must be doing something right. Offering those who prefer Ubuntu a much lighter and faster alternative is a good thing, not a sell out to Canonical, any more than offering Window$ style interfaces is a sell out to Micro$oft. Passion is great. Zealousness often goes beyond reason.

EDIT: I'm not spitting at Barry, the community or Puppy. I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm full of appreciation and thankfulness.

That's good to know. Don't "cut off your nose to spite your face" is a common expression to those with English as their first language. I hope you will understand and appreciate that sentiment.

[WhoDo]

To the "ordinary users": by all means make your feelings known, but don't expect that they will be shared or acted upon. That's a matter of choice and the choice is always with those who have the ability, not those who need it. Don't be misled that this project is about your wants and needs; it isn't.

Then don't ask us what we want and need. Don't ask us to test your projects and "Give feedback please!" Don't complain when people don't (I have seen many a volunteer dev, and Barry too, complain that nobody gave feedback and therefore they are dropping the project due to lack of interest).

Make up your minds what you want.

But asking for our feedback then calling us selfish greedy demanding leeches for giving it especially when it isn't what you wanted to hear puts you all lower than the welfare and entitlement labels you are sticking on us.

Ok, I can see you feel personally aggrieved here so I will try one last time to explain the difference between "feedback" and "demanding change".

When a dev requests feedback, what they're asking is "does my code do what I intended" and not "does my code do what you think it should.

There is a vast difference between answering that call for specific information and making personal demands for the development of solutions to meet the needs of a particular user or group of users.

I have never known a dev, volunteer or otherwise, to complain about being told a particular piece of code has a bug - that is doesn't work as the programmer intended. I certainly have heard of devs complaining about users labelling as "buggy" code that does what the programmer intended but not what the user wanted. I repeat, volunteer devs are not here to meet the expectations of users unless by serendipity those happen to coincide with their own.

When devs complain that users aren't testing their code, it usually comes AFTER they were forced to release buggy code because no-one had tested it for them. To then complain they are either bad coders or not listening to what users want and need is adding insult to injury.

shariebeth, I understand your position. Please accept that the emphasis in my post (and jemimah's, I believe) was on the expectation that devs, particularly volunteer devs, will always respond in the way that users want or need. That simply cannot be the case in a voluntary project, I'm sorry. You have a right to expect that from Micro$oft, and to some degree from Canonical if you bought support with your pre-loaded Ubuntu package, but not from Puppy. As raffy has pointed out, there are no warranties either expressed or implied when you choose to enjoy the benefits of Puppy freely given.

BTW, I don't recall anyone here calling you or anyone else "selfish greedy demanding leeches". If they had I would deplore that as much as you.

[rcrsn51]

... That simply cannot be the case in a voluntary project, I'm sorry.

This community has provided BK with free testing, free user support, free software and free web hosting for HIS project. Anyone who has successfully managed a volunteer enterprise understands the importance of keeping the troops happy.

[Aitch]

Aitch wrote:
Iguleder

You seem to have caught the puppyite virus

I recommend running a shower to clear your mind, and if that doesn't work.....
.....ask someone near to give you a tap on the head

Please don't contaminate the forum

Aitch


I'm speechless. .....

yet clearly not enough to continue....

I'm disgusted. I suspect this thread was created out of frustration and desperation because the more "appropriate and private" venue's were either ignored or blocked. Anyone who has the common sense and foresight to see what is happening, and speaks up, gets the shaft here.

I'm sorry I don't think you've been around as long as some of us

My post wasn't a shafting, merely a diversionary humour
I have the common sense and foresight to see what is happening, so, I try it every time one of this type of post gets started, because it brings out the viral behaviour seen here.....negativity begets negativity

Hence, diversionary humour....obviously not seen for what it was so.....
Are you the same shariebeth who also said,

It is always good to practice the tolerance we preach of.

Let me remind you....

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 519#398519

that was the IRC channel negativity thread

My final words in that thread are

Do we have this in perspective now, folks?

Big Planet, small 'problem' - and shrinking happens by not feeding the 'problem'

....unless you aren't conscious of the effect you DO have in the big planet, via the internet

Aitch

Now, is there really any need 'to air the dirty washing' like this?

Are WE ALL collectively so darned fragile that we fall to pieces because someone gets upset with something???


WhoDo

I wish it were so simple as to see things in terms of intro- or extro-vertian, [Jungian or not] - however I DO think you nailed it when you said 'When it stops being fun........'

For want of being predictable,

Do we have this in perspective now, folks?

Big Planet, small 'problem' - and shrinking happens by not feeding the 'problem'

....unless you aren't conscious of the effect you DO have in the big planet, via the internet



We are Puppy - Resistance is Futile! [but humour helps allay negativity ]

Enough already! Please!

Aitch

[raffy]

The original post is by Iguleder, who has done some work in "unofficial 4.3.2" here.

He could follow Ttuuxxx's example and call his build, say, "iggy" version (the same way Ttuuxxx called his version "puppies"). One more example, see slaxer by big_bass.

Iguleder, please do what you like to do, and if it happens to be your own unique build of Puppy, am confident that people here will be happy and willing to help.

Or you can handle the more challenging role of collecting innovations for the next Puppy build.

[Jota]

@ ttuuxxx:
Congrats for the 4.3.2 effort! So far it looks good.
Ah and instead of Tinycore take a look at Slitaz... It's a saner base to build upon. You will be happy!!
http://www.slitaz.org/en/doc/releases/3 ... es.en.html

@ jemimah, about the relationship between devs and users:
"Men have forgotten this truth," said the fox. "But you must not forget it. You become responsible, forever, for what you have tamed. You are responsible for your rose . . ."
Le Petit Prince, by Antoine Exupery
http://waterviolet.blogspot.com/2010/02 ... rince.html


....

On a keynote:

It seems that were my posts on Barry's blog that leads him to "close" his blog to others people opinions.

I don't know for the others, but for me, thanks for the education that my parents gave to me, I'm pretty open-minded. Critics have always helped me to grow as a person and as a professional.

So, in my opinion, Barry's attitude has been brutal. I just feel sorry for him.

If anyone read with attention my posts, I had not used any offensive words, not even close. On the contrary, I did offer some ideas to help Puppy be a better distro.

But it is funny that no-one had commented on that ideas, only commented on the bits where I criticize Barry!

I really do believe that Puppy developers should have more interest in merging new features and bug fixes into a common mainstream code rather than spawning forks (puplets) all along, as it has been the case.

For some time I have fixes and solutions to some of the problems that Barry is currently investigating. But where to send them? To Barry?? To some of the pupplets? (neither to say that some of the fixes and enhancements are very technical and probably only Barry or a few people will understand them)

But, for now I will take a (very long) Puppy break, and focus my attention and skills on other things.

Good coding to everyone, special thanks to Barry for some of the things I've learned with Puppy in the past 4 years, but now it's time to move on!

[shariebeth]

@Whodo: I don't expect anything from any of you. I came into Puppy for what puppy was when I saw it. I do not criticize anything I've seen nor do I make demands. I am thrilled to have found puppy. I can put together "Hello world", and make a grocery list, and my dog's names and birthdates in C and C++ spit out. That is the extent of my coding abilities or I would have long since volunteered to help as well. I DO expect that if someone asks for opinions or for "feedback", they accept the good, the bad, and the ugly...and the occasional comments of what users would like without throwing their toys out of the pram in a fit. That is part of the package deal when you interact with "the public". Interaction goes both ways.

I am curious though, why the obsession with rankings, if devs don't care what the users want or need. Aren't those same users the ones who click and vote?

@Aitch: First and foremost, I am sorry if what you said was an attempt at using humor to defuse the situation. Given the rest of the comments and tone, it was an easy assumption (yes I know what they say about assuming) to think you were serious, and I am sorry I fell into that trap.

What tolerance am I preaching of that I am not practicing? If anything, I am asking Barry and the devs to be more tolerant of the users they are ultimately coding for. As has already been pointed out by others, if they weren't interested in the users, why is any of this up for public consumption? I am certainly tolerant of devs and their talents and their quirks too. I have great respect for the whole project and everyone involved. I ask you to find me an example of where I have been negative to any dev or any puppy.

I'm also curious what my length of time here has to do with anything. Am I less worthy than you to have an opinion? Perhaps you are not familiar with the concept that sometimes it takes an "outsider" looking in, to see the big picture clearly. Of course I don't see myself as an outsider anymore but obviously the old-schoolers here do and do not welcome anyone new rocking their boat.

I have no wish to air dirty laundry in public, I quite abhor that whole concept. I also don't see where I have been the one to start anything in public. However I also have an equal dislike of unfairness and hypocrisy, and if I see someone being unfairly slandered or attacked, I will speak up.

Finally: yes it should be fun. For everyone.

[Aitch]

shariebeth

Oh dear that virus really is more powerful than I give it credit.....

In the post of mine which seemed to get you all fired up, quoted previously, I referred to the puppyite virus

Puppyite was a person who started a thread similar to this which turned very negative, and sadly loads of forum members 'joined in' - just like this one was veering towards

My comment that you haven't been around as long as some, was merely an attempt to show you that we've been here before

puppyite left leaving a bad taste on the forum in November 2009, before you joined 2 months later...no more no less...nothing inferred that you have no right to speak - I merely rock the boat on how people speak, so I'm very familiar with that tactic
Neither was I inferring that you had not practiced what you preached, just that I observe it to be difficult to be tolerant when upset/ranting
I also find it's not just about who starts something negative, but about the willingness of people to let go when in its grip - that's all ....you took it how you did, not my projection onto you, or picking on you, at all, OK?

Now, I'll try again.....

When I first joined the forum, I posted a picture not dissimilar to this.....and was criticised, but seriously folks.....what can you see if you do this? [attached]



maybe that'll kill the thread? or get it locked....or do we really see how far we can get this self destruct gravy train to go.....?

It's a personal choice! OK?

....and that's my humour....

Edit: attached image removed wrt ttuuxxx's request

If you're desperate to know what it was, if you missed it, pm me

Aitch

[jemimah]

@Jota, Touche'!
I have but one question: Who is John Galt?
http://www.turtletrader.com/who-is-john-galt.html

[cthisbear]

While we hit it whinge button....

just change the verse from I to We.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25npytHm ... re=related

Then let's dance around and give everyone a smacking.

"""

For added Smacking...thanks Johnny.
Anarchy in the UK Sex Pistols

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQkActP- ... re=related

Even better The Sex Pistols -
Pretty Vacant - Live On The Late Late Show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvxrYm4n ... re=related

/////////

WhoDo got us to Number 2....that's all you lot need to know.

It wasn't always pretty....still we survive.
Barry only hit Number 3 ??? >> Puppy 4.3.1

This alone brought us more forum members.
People sat up and took notice.
Our deal breaker.

Improvements > some >> continue.
HP invent...but we achieve.

Want to help Puppy then:
Chip in and help out with testing and ideas.
Donate some money for servers - reliable Bandwidth is needed.

Some laughter and humour would be most advisable.
Get off your high horses....most advisable.

Short and sweet>> For all the whiners>>>Piss Off.

None of us own Puppy...only BK.

We survived before you lot turned up.
And we'll survive any ranting and hissy fits.

Big Bazza is the king of his termite anthill.
Plenty of us natives have enjoyed dancing in his shadow.

One of our most cherished and unsung members
of our musical troupe is our conductor John Murga.

This forum of his is the rehearsal room for Puppy.

We have had plenty of guest musos from time to time.
Some have left the orchestra, don't like the tune
or hate the drummer, some don't show up at rehearsals.
Still we continue to play.

We've had some good reviews.
Of course there are stinkers too.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=54084

Although we bang our different drums, sometimes together,
many times out of synch - there are moments we work together...
keep it simple and play a reprise to the audience.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekWTf_o85CY

Chris.

[ttuuxxx]

hi Aitch you might want to remove that image, Its a bit disturbing and I wouldn't want to explain it to my 7yr old daughter.
Thanks
ttuuxxx

[raffy]

@Aitch: And the puppyite "virus" has "Puppy achievement" code written in its DNA, see the puppylinuxfaq that puppyite is now maintaining.

[8-bit]

Iguleder,

I have to bring this up.
You created a snapshot of Puppy 431 with bug fixes and included SCSI in it.
You went so far as to do a second snapshot with further fixes.
Then Control of making an updated version of 431 was given to Tuxx even though you had started the ball rolling.
Were you upset by this?

By the way, I liked your second version and still have it on me PC.
I also like Tuxxx's update and he brought us an updated Browser still staying with the original look and feel of Puppy.

I know you both put effort into the updates and I for one did not look for major changes as to substitution of a different browser or adding a bunch of programs that were not included in the original.
To me, an update should be just that. A big fix update.
If programs are added that were not in the original, then I consider it a derivative.

I have not yet tried my hand at making a custom (derivative) Puppy.
I know a lot is involved in the process and I do not know enough yet to end up with a functional release.

Anyway, not I have got that off of my mind and will exit stage left.
But not from Puppy!

[russoodle]

My understanding of the bottom line is that Puppy is the product of voluntary effort, further development is contributed to voluntarily, additional software is developed voluntarily by interested programmers....aren't we lucky to have as much of this as we do?

The meaningful word for me here is voluntary, which=effort and output from volunteers, who are not (usually) remunerated for their work and their considerable time...some of these contributors have other jobs/obligations to divvy up their time with as well..

If some suggestions/feedback are not implemented in a particular release (either official or deriv.), then i guess we (users, not coders) either cop it sweet or move on to another playground if it's not what we want.. (i don't see any barbed-wire fences).

Those who possess the skills and knowledge to program and code for Puppy or his offspring can choose to...or not...i don't, so i'm mighty appreciative of the choices that are already available to me here

Anyway, must go...there's a very loud and lively barking going on here, so i know he definitely ain't dead! (probably just hungry..)
.

[ttuuxxx]

@Aitch: And the puppyite "virus" has "Puppy achievement" code written in its DNA, see the puppylinuxfaq that puppyite is now maintaining.

Hi Raffy I personally never like that site you posted a link to, really you should be allowed to copy any puppy documentation without asking the author. I really dislike that that notice that authors signure posted on the bottom. Actually COPIED image below I think its just bad taste to have a notice like that. Not very helpful from a help site.
ttuuxxx

[WhoDo]

... That simply cannot be the case in a voluntary project, I'm sorry.

This community has provided BK with free testing, free user support, free software and free web hosting for HIS project. Anyone who has successfully managed a volunteer enterprise understands the importance of keeping the troops happy.

Hmmmm ... your idea of "free" and mine obviously differ. I don't recall Barry asking for anyone to support Puppy's users. We, not the Royal "we" but the collective "we", volunteered for that ourselves. I don't recall Barry asking for the "free" software either. I thought that was a labour of love; a chance for many of us to give back in repayment for all we have received from Puppy. As for "free web hosting", Barry didn't request that either; I paid for hosting on puppylinux.org for a time, Barry's own domain, by my personal choice as a way of giving back with thanks for all I had received. I'm sure Eric "caneri" Mulcaster did the same with his own hosting initiative. Barry owns and pays for puppylinux.com and always has, so I don't know where you got this idea that it was the community somehow giving Barry something for free! That's just nonsense IMHO. If we give OURSELVES a gift, why should we expect Barry to be grateful?

As for "free testing", something cannot be considered truly "free" if there is an expectation of some payback in the process. For most of us that payback is the new and improved version of Puppy that we both want and expect. Does that mean that Barry has an obligation to provide our idea of that "new and improved version" of Puppy? I don't think so, Tim.

I understand that you and I have never really seen eye-to-eye on a lot of things, but suggesting that Barry OWES something to the Puppy community because he has created the OS around which it has formed is simply illogical. The debt is entirely due in the opposite direction.

As for "keeping the troops happy", that was my role in the 4.2x Deep Thought development effort. My troops then were the volunteer devs, not the noisy nestlings with the mouths open wide looking for their needs to be met. With some I succeeded and with others I failed. I did my best in the circumstances. That said, the community members have never been Barry's "troops"; although occasionally the devs have. Who then should he be keeping happy? Those who contribute or those who only whine when they don't get what they want?

[WhoDo]

I really do believe that Puppy developers should have more interest in merging new features and bug fixes into a common mainstream code rather than spawning forks (puplets) all along, as it has been the case.

Barry has always made that opportunity available. Devs submit fixes and Barry includes those he sees as most valuable and which do not break something else he may be doing. If you read his blog regularly you will see that he clearly acknowledges those fixes that he includes in the mainstream code, presently identified as Woof.

There is still only one true "fork" of Puppy, that was Grafpup. Others have simply been what we usually term puplets; basic Puppy versions with some additions and/or deletions.

Barry is human, and sometimes he misses including some things. So what? He does this for FUN and doesn't have any obligation to provide features, fixes, documentation or anything else we may find useful. If I'm getting tired of parroting this stuff, I can only begin to imagine how tired Barry must be of doing the same thing, given he has several more years invested in this project than I have.

Jota, you are not the first to complain you don't like the way things are "organised" (or not) around here. You won't be the last. Either way you can chose to contribute or move on. That's your choice, take it or leave it. No-one will criticise your decision no matter what it is. Barry and the other devs should be so lucky with their decisions, too.