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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
So ... This is it? Puppy is dead?
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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1741
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 15:56    Post subject:  

jemimah wrote:

To sum it up, and cut it short: no open source developer has any obligation to users whatsoever. Suggesting otherwise is extremely harmful.


Oh please.....if your programming is so sacred and you have no obligations to users, why even release it? Or are we to prostate ourselves to pay homage to you and seek comfort in the gift from the annointed one?
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 16:10    Post subject:  

tlchost I trust jemimah to be totally right on that one.

They do it because it is fun to do it. If the users start to demand things that take away the fun and there goes the inner motivation.

If you are able to fix things feeling to be a core and a PITA then what stops you from being a developer yourself.

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DaveS


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PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 16:15    Post subject:  

tlchost wrote:
jemimah wrote:

To sum it up, and cut it short: no open source developer has any obligation to users whatsoever. Suggesting otherwise is extremely harmful.


Oh please.....if your programming is so sacred and you have no obligations to users, why even release it? Or are we to prostate ourselves to pay homage to you and seek comfort in the gift from the annointed one?


Know what? Barry is DEAD RIGHT!

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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 16:25    Post subject:  

It's really easy to see why Barry locked down his blog........
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linuxsansdisquedur


Joined: 13 Jan 2009
Posts: 250
Location: South of France

PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 16:58    Post subject:  
Subject description: good idea never die
 

never heard 'dows users or 'buntu ones using sort of threat against bill G or M$huttleworth or their devs !! Shocked
is puppy and his devs too friendly ?
is the hard work of amateurs doesn't worth as much as work for money ?
It is NOT my opinion !
I like puppy because of its powerful lightness (i went to it because of its) and also for its not professional side (i love it for that utopian way).
Sure, a distro that provide in official OS the way to remasterize and make pupplet (thank to Barry) can't be a one way thinking dogma but a protean one with some anarchy in development and a Barry is needed to unitize it.
I can't imagine Barry leave its beloved creation.
But i'm sure puppy gonna live as long as this forum can work and our shared ideas and work can build a future for it Cool

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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 17:51    Post subject:  

@shariebeth, I didn't intend to single you out as specifically as I did. No personal offense intended, "welfare" and "entitlement" are Barry's words. This is a long standing conflict that comes up over and over.

@tclhost, programming is only "sacred" to me. I don't expect others the care about it. When they do, it's surprising. Honestly, gratitude make me nearly as uncomfortable as demands.

@sylvander, I don't necessarily agree with your stats teacher either. But if something is even marginally useful only to me, that's still enough reason to do it.

@ttuuxxx - but tinycore already has the best window manager, FLWM. No need for JWM or icewm. Of course their build of it needs a little work... like Xft support. Razz Anyway, don't take it personally - I'm sure this whole situation will sort itself out when everybody calms down.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 18:03    Post subject:  

Which Quirky version is it Barry plan to present as the official one? there is 13 of them. is it 13 then that has the best chance? Where can I download it?
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MinHundHettePerro


Joined: 05 Feb 2009
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 19:13    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:
Where can I download it?
Here

hth Smile/
MHHP

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nooby

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PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 19:34    Post subject:  

Thanks
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looseSCREWorTWO

Joined: 04 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 20:00    Post subject:  

Jemimah said:

Quote:
The great thing about Puppy is that you don't have to customize it. The out of the box experience is pretty darn good for the size.


"pretty darn good" is one way to describe Puppy Linux.

Personally, I would have said "absolutely bloody amazing"

And if someone has been developing this amazing OS for years and years I think he should be able to take some "time out" without having the finger pointed at him
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 20:38    Post subject:  

jemimah wrote:
shariebeth wrote:
to guide the geniuses who CAN code so that they code what the users and potential future uses want and need!


This is the attitude that causes the problem. The is what is meant by "entitlement" and "welfare mentality." ...[snip]... But the ultimate reason for coding is because the euphoria of problem solving is addictive. And we seek more and harder problems, like an addict desperate for a fix. ...[snip]...

Programming is a very personal search for self actualization...[snip]... so when users somehow get the idea that any of it is "about them," it's almost a laughable misunderstanding. It's such a wonderful feeling when I discover that other people like and use my work - but even if everybody hated it, I would continue to do the work in private...[snip]...The benefit comes from being able to bring forth my own vision into existence. Few people can tell me what this vision is better than me, but I often invite dialog with the purpose of generating new ideas, because I like nothing better than new ideas. I collect ideas in my mind like a numismatist collects coins, cherishing them, polishing them, sometimes trading them in for new ones.

To sum it up, and cut it short: no open source developer has any obligation to users whatsoever.

Ah, vindication! I love it!!! One of the frequent questions from "users" when I was coordinating the 4.2.x series development project was "why don't you listen to us?" The degree of presumption in that question is just staggering! I felt like saying "NO is also an answer"! Maybe I did, once or twice. Smile

[rant switch = on]
I've been saying for years, from the perspective of a project leader managing volunteer developers, that you simply cannot TELL volunteers what to do! You can ask. You can beg. You can bribe or encourage; but you can't TELL. They do what they do because it is fun! If they did it because it was what the users wanted and that's not what they also wanted it would no longer be fun; it would be work! Work requires payment because it is a chore not a pleasure. Even professional coders prefer their own projects to the ones they're paid to produce! Fun vs. work! It's so simple I have trouble understanding why so many others simply don't or won't get it! Confused

I'm sure there are people out there lucky enough to be paid for what they enjoy doing. That said, let's not get confused between simply coding (the act) and coding (the realisation of ones own ideas). The former is usually work. The latter can be great fun if you're a coder!

I'd say that jemimah is probably a Jungian introvert; needing only the self-satisfaction of solving a problem or realising an idea. There are coders who are Jungian extroverts; ttuuxxx for example. They need at least someone outside of themselves to appreciate what they do or they move on. I think Barry is probably more like jemimah than ttuuxxx in that regard, but I'm sure there is an element of the extrovert in his make-up; otherwise he wouldn't be so concerned with apparent criticisms on his blog.

Either way - introvert or extrovert - when it stops being fun volunteers will quickly find another outlet for their creative natures to explore. Barry did it for a while with Woof and Quirky and feeling refreshed by that was moved to offer to rejuvenate his original baby that was Dingo (4.x series). All I can say is that, at the moment, Puppy is NOT dead, the sky is NOT falling and Barry and the other devs are NOT motivated by what users want unless they want to be!

Barry's blog is now locked. I think Barry will come to regret that because it presently isolates him from a whole bunch of other coders who can feed his creative ideas, as he does theirs. All the same I'm not surprised. I don't think ICPUG and Jota were at all unreasonable in their posts, but they weren't necessarily feeding Barry's creativity either. "Erk! That tastes bad so I'd better spit it out!" was probably his unconscious reaction. I'm sure he will find another way to get valuable feedback to nourish his creativity.

To the "ordinary users": by all means make your feelings known, but don't expect that they will be shared or acted upon. That's a matter of choice and the choice is always with those who have the ability, not those who need it. Don't be misled that this project is about your wants and needs; it isn't. Enjoy it for what it is or move on. If you need something changed, fixed or updated and no-one else seems inclined to oblige you in that need, find a way to get it done yourself or not; that's your choice. Whatever you do, do NOT nag or whine to get your way. The people you nag or whine at may chose to move on themselves and that will be everyone's loss, not just yours!
[rant switch = off]

If you've read this far, thanks for "listening". If not, no problem. Wink To those who may be tempted to accuse me of being an "armchair psychologist", I freely admit I'm no expert. As a professional educator and manager for over 40 years, however, I believe I do have some insight into people and what makes them "tick". Take that FWIW and nothing more.

Cheers

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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 20:46    Post subject:  

WhoDo wrote:
To the "ordinary users": by all means make your feelings known, but don't expect that they will be shared or acted upon. That's a matter of choice and the choice is always with those who have the ability, not those who need it. Don't be misled that this project is about your wants and needs; it isn't.

Then don't ask us what we want and need. Don't ask us to test your projects and "Give feedback please!" Don't complain when people don't (I have seen many a volunteer dev, and Barry too, complain that nobody gave feedback and therefore they are dropping the project due to lack of interest).

Make up your minds what you want.

But asking for our feedback then calling us selfish greedy demanding leeches for giving it especially when it isn't what you wanted to hear puts you all lower than the welfare and entitlement labels you are sticking on us.
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4798
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 20:55    Post subject: top ten  

HO HUM...

In that page linked to by Barry, I also said that being in the "top ten" of distrowatch has its own problems, certainly like this one.

Anyway, there are devs and users: Devs solve problems, and users want to go to devs for their own problems.

But NO - Puppy enables users to be devs of some sort, so they can therefore solve their own problems. This must be one reason for the ascending rank of Puppy in distrowatch.

What we wanted to avoid is for devs to be treated as if they are servants of users. They are not - look at the big print: NO WARRANTY, USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.

The success of Open Source is that individuals (devs) are able to do what used to be done by corporate entities. And that these devs (individuals) are here with us is something to be grateful about.

Am certainly grateful that Barry has been picking up the pieces for Puppy 5, and that jemimah is here leading development for puppeee. Smile

Am I a user? Yes, and I try to represent user interest from the education field.

Do I do my share of the work? Yes, I try to be admin of puppylinux.org, and shortly, puppeee.org. I take part of the load of devs so that they can focus more on the important issues. Shouldn't everyone do as well?

Do I complain? HO HUM, there must be better things to do, OK?

And if other people here do what I have been planning to do, that is already a large benefit in being here.

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 21:08    Post subject: Re: So ... This is it? Puppy is dead?
Subject description: Let's put the cards on the table
 

Iguleder wrote:
So ... is Puppy dead?

No.

Iguleder wrote:
... if the community-effort to build Puppy 5 is all about using the junky Ubuntu packages, Puppy lost it. It won't support old hardware and Ubuntu's huge size and bloat won't do wonders with Puppy. This is no longer Puppy. Just a silly Lubuntu-like distro with JWM.

You've missed the whole point of Upup, which is to bring the speed and lightness of the Puppy architecture to the users who like the look and feel of Ubuntu, and access to the Ubuntu package choices. It is NOT about making Puppy bloated or being an Ubuntu derivative or clone.

Iguleder wrote:
The current development model of Puppy is bad and it simply doesn't work. People invent nifty improvements here and there, which eventually appear only on one puplet and get lost in the heaps of topics of these huge forums. Puppy remains old, stupid and stands in the same place for years instead of rushing forward and adopting new technologies. This cannot happen in a normal distro. Especially not in the 10th most popular one.

I don't think you have any real idea what you are talking about here. Debian is a classic Top 10 distro that made its name simply be standing "in the same place for years instead of rushing forward and adopting new technologies." Puppy sits fairly happily in its own niche, neither being at the technological bleeding edge like Tiny Core or Zenwalk nor lagging behind so far as Debian.

Iguleder wrote:
The Puppy "base", all the architecture-independent data, stuff like the directory structure, desktop files, all that, must be stored on some git repository or something, so people can change it. That's true open development model. Puppy, until now, was developed in a very close and stiff way.

If you had been following Puppy development you would know this is already the case. Git was tried and discarded as not suiting Puppy's purposes but it has been replaced with a more Puppy-friendly system that is part of the Woof build system.

Iguleder wrote:
Also, Puppy mustn't include Flash or anything that is not free. That is bad for Puppy and good for corporations, who find another crowd of unwilling users. Alternatives exist. That's one of the reasons why free software exists at all.

You have missed the original Puppy philosophy; it "just works" for most users. A totally FOSS philosophy sacrifices that. You may be passionate about that but most users just want something that works. Puppy devs continue to investigate the alternatives and offer them when they are considered mature enough to fill the bill; not before. Try OpenSUSE if you want a FOSS-only distribution, but be prepared for some things that work poorly at times or others that simply don't work at all.

Iguleder wrote:
I'm sorry, but if Puppy goes to the Ubuntu direction, I'm outta here. There's nothing I can do anymore. I've written many articles for the wiki (see my sig), many guides, packaged software and I truly believe that I did a lot for the Puppy community. I feel betrayed. I will NOT support Ubuntu, Adobe or any company. And I will not assist Puppy on its way to the grave.

So be it. I think you're wrong but that's my right just as it's yours to leave if you wish. Ubuntu exists at the top of the distro rankings, so it must be doing something right. Offering those who prefer Ubuntu a much lighter and faster alternative is a good thing, not a sell out to Canonical, any more than offering Window$ style interfaces is a sell out to Micro$oft. Passion is great. Zealousness often goes beyond reason.

Iguleder wrote:
EDIT: I'm not spitting at Barry, the community or Puppy. I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm full of appreciation and thankfulness.

That's good to know. Don't "cut off your nose to spite your face" is a common expression to those with English as their first language. I hope you will understand and appreciate that sentiment.

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Apr 2010, 21:30    Post subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
WhoDo wrote:
To the "ordinary users": by all means make your feelings known, but don't expect that they will be shared or acted upon. That's a matter of choice and the choice is always with those who have the ability, not those who need it. Don't be misled that this project is about your wants and needs; it isn't.

Then don't ask us what we want and need. Don't ask us to test your projects and "Give feedback please!" Don't complain when people don't (I have seen many a volunteer dev, and Barry too, complain that nobody gave feedback and therefore they are dropping the project due to lack of interest).

Make up your minds what you want.

But asking for our feedback then calling us selfish greedy demanding leeches for giving it especially when it isn't what you wanted to hear puts you all lower than the welfare and entitlement labels you are sticking on us.

Ok, I can see you feel personally aggrieved here so I will try one last time to explain the difference between "feedback" and "demanding change".

When a dev requests feedback, what they're asking is "does my code do what I intended" and not "does my code do what you think it should.

There is a vast difference between answering that call for specific information and making personal demands for the development of solutions to meet the needs of a particular user or group of users.

I have never known a dev, volunteer or otherwise, to complain about being told a particular piece of code has a bug - that is doesn't work as the programmer intended. I certainly have heard of devs complaining about users labelling as "buggy" code that does what the programmer intended but not what the user wanted. I repeat, volunteer devs are not here to meet the expectations of users unless by serendipity those happen to coincide with their own.

When devs complain that users aren't testing their code, it usually comes AFTER they were forced to release buggy code because no-one had tested it for them. To then complain they are either bad coders or not listening to what users want and need is adding insult to injury.

shariebeth, I understand your position. Please accept that the emphasis in my post (and jemimah's, I believe) was on the expectation that devs, particularly volunteer devs, will always respond in the way that users want or need. That simply cannot be the case in a voluntary project, I'm sorry. You have a right to expect that from Micro$oft, and to some degree from Canonical if you bought support with your pre-loaded Ubuntu package, but not from Puppy. As raffy has pointed out, there are no warranties either expressed or implied when you choose to enjoy the benefits of Puppy freely given.

BTW, I don't recall anyone here calling you or anyone else "selfish greedy demanding leeches". If they had I would deplore that as much as you.

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