That's a very good question and the fact you needed to ask that speaks volumes.jamesbond wrote:With respect - who exactly needs to do "what needs doing"?shariebeth wrote:Stop playing puppy politics and get on with what needs doing!
cheers!
So ... This is it? Puppy is dead?
-
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Tue 26 Jan 2010, 19:37
- Location: Florida
-
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Tue 24 Mar 2009, 11:41
Barry is not dead. I wish people would stop behaving as if he were.
Puppy will not die. There are too many here who will forge on. We may just have personal versions, but it will live on.
K
Puppy will not die. There are too many here who will forge on. We may just have personal versions, but it will live on.
K
[quote="Lobster"][quote]Read this: Fear Not Root, and tell us what you think.[/quote]
I thought reading this was preferable to running around like a headless penguin
exclaiming, 'Beware the root'. :roll:
[/quote]
I thought reading this was preferable to running around like a headless penguin
exclaiming, 'Beware the root'. :roll:
[/quote]
This is the attitude that causes the problem. The is what is meant by "entitlement" and "welfare mentality." "Geniuses" do not exist for the purpose of serving the users. If we did, we would ask for money.shariebeth wrote:to guide the geniuses who CAN code so that they code what the users and potential future uses want and need!
If a coder asks for user input, it's because he or she thinks the interaction is fun, and educational. But the ultimate reason for coding is because the euphoria of problem solving is addictive. And we seek more and harder problems, like an addict desperate for a fix.
I can only speak for myself, but I will do that, in hopes that at least a few other people will read and understand.
Programming is a very personal search for self actualization, and in a way, an almost religious experience. I am always reaching for new planes of understanding, honing my skills, like a Jedi in training.
And so when users somehow get the idea that any of it is "about them," it's almost a laughable misunderstanding. It's such a wonderful feeling when I discover that other people like and use my work - but even if everybody hated it, I would continue to do the work in private because I need it to maintain my own mental health.
The benefit comes from being able to bring forth my own vision into existence. Few people can tell me what this vision is better than me, but I often invite dialog with the purpose of generating new ideas, because I like nothing better than new ideas. I collect ideas in my mind like a numismatist collects coins, cherishing them, polishing them, sometimes trading them in for new ones.
To sum it up, and cut it short: no open source developer has any obligation to users whatsoever. Suggesting otherwise is extremely harmful.
Quite often...
When a person want's to get their own way...
They tell everyone...
"If you don't do this thing there will be a terrible disaster!"
And proceed to "lay it on thick".
Hmmm...
Now where have I seen that before?
@jemimah
I remember my statistics teacher saying something like that.
I said to him:
"But surely, anyone to does something, must have in mind that at some point in the future there will be some USE for what he does!"
And he said:
"No, the thing is, and should be, done for its own sake."
Then and now, I still find it hard to agree with that.
When a person want's to get their own way...
They tell everyone...
"If you don't do this thing there will be a terrible disaster!"
And proceed to "lay it on thick".
Hmmm...
Now where have I seen that before?
@jemimah
I remember my statistics teacher saying something like that.
I said to him:
"But surely, anyone to does something, must have in mind that at some point in the future there will be some USE for what he does!"
And he said:
"No, the thing is, and should be, done for its own sake."
Then and now, I still find it hard to agree with that.
Last edited by Sylvander on Fri 02 Apr 2010, 19:01, edited 1 time in total.
- ttuuxxx
- Posts: 11171
- Joined: Sat 05 May 2007, 10:00
- Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia
- Contact:
Who know's if a couple of us get tired of things like being locked out of a developers blog, maybe a move to tiny-core wouldn't be all that bad, not that I want to but its an option, I could hack that 10MB release and make it say 60 mb or less with just about everything puppy has in it. I just had a look at the inners of the tinycore.gz, wouldn't be all that hard to add gtk2,rox,jwm or icewm,Firefox or seamonkey. I don't know I went to bed feeling like crap because of Barry and his blog, got up and still feel like crap when I read that red text he added to the top of the blog.jemimah wrote: There already exists a very modular linux called TinyCore. Unfortunately, the initial learning curve is too steep for me. I look at their website, install their 10MB image, and I'm bored with it before I even figure out what I'm supposed to do.
well back to 4.3.2
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)
That's how the ripples in the pond spread out.
A couple of people said things that made Barry feel like crap...
So he protected himself by ending any responses...
And that passed the feeling along.
LIKE:
The King elbows the Queen...
And the Queen slaps her maid...
And the maid slaps her boyfriend...
And he hits his little brother...
And the little brother kicks his dog...
And the dog bites the King...
A couple of people said things that made Barry feel like crap...
So he protected himself by ending any responses...
And that passed the feeling along.
LIKE:
The King elbows the Queen...
And the Queen slaps her maid...
And the maid slaps her boyfriend...
And he hits his little brother...
And the little brother kicks his dog...
And the dog bites the King...
-
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Tue 26 Jan 2010, 19:37
- Location: Florida
@jemimah:
Where has anybody said they think you or any of the other talented devs owe them anything? I know I certainly didn't. I am grateful for puppy and all of the work you and everyone has chosen voluntarily to do for it! Nor would I ever presume to assume you do it for me, you do it for the love of it. I know that. I also know that puppeee and other distros fill a need. Whether it be the developer's personal need or a need the community at large has, it's done for a reason. I also would think your thread has 99 pages because you care what works for other people and want to make a damn good distro that people will actually use.
I am talking about two things here.
One:. Puppy as a core distro, which everything else has been based from, including your puppeee (which I think is fantastic), has some problems, not just in the actual distro itself, but in how the whole thing is run. If puppy wants to move forward, it needs 4 things:
1. An organized documentation system.
2. A stable base puppy version, regularly updated for bugs and upgrades needed to keep up with linux at large.
3. A cutting edge division where everyone can work on their own derivatives and move puppy forward with everyone else.
4. A retro division to make sure puppy works for the people it was originally intended to work for: the old and less-than-optimal pc's and laptops that need special distros.
Two: How people have been treated who have devoted a lot of time and energy and effort into puppy. When opinions are asked for and projects are asked for, both of talented experienced devs and the "average user", it seems that there is interest in knowing what the "community" is thinking and wants. You cannot fault the common user and talented dev for thinking their opinions and work matter if it was asked for in the first place. (I also take great umbrage to being asked for an opinion or feedback then told I have entitlement and welfare mentality for offering it. I find that rather rude and arrogant.)
I will repeat, in case you missed it, do not assume people think you owe them anything. Nobody said that that I have seen, and I definitely do not think that. Please read carefully before jumping to offended conclusions.
Where has anybody said they think you or any of the other talented devs owe them anything? I know I certainly didn't. I am grateful for puppy and all of the work you and everyone has chosen voluntarily to do for it! Nor would I ever presume to assume you do it for me, you do it for the love of it. I know that. I also know that puppeee and other distros fill a need. Whether it be the developer's personal need or a need the community at large has, it's done for a reason. I also would think your thread has 99 pages because you care what works for other people and want to make a damn good distro that people will actually use.
I am talking about two things here.
One:. Puppy as a core distro, which everything else has been based from, including your puppeee (which I think is fantastic), has some problems, not just in the actual distro itself, but in how the whole thing is run. If puppy wants to move forward, it needs 4 things:
1. An organized documentation system.
2. A stable base puppy version, regularly updated for bugs and upgrades needed to keep up with linux at large.
3. A cutting edge division where everyone can work on their own derivatives and move puppy forward with everyone else.
4. A retro division to make sure puppy works for the people it was originally intended to work for: the old and less-than-optimal pc's and laptops that need special distros.
Two: How people have been treated who have devoted a lot of time and energy and effort into puppy. When opinions are asked for and projects are asked for, both of talented experienced devs and the "average user", it seems that there is interest in knowing what the "community" is thinking and wants. You cannot fault the common user and talented dev for thinking their opinions and work matter if it was asked for in the first place. (I also take great umbrage to being asked for an opinion or feedback then told I have entitlement and welfare mentality for offering it. I find that rather rude and arrogant.)
I will repeat, in case you missed it, do not assume people think you owe them anything. Nobody said that that I have seen, and I definitely do not think that. Please read carefully before jumping to offended conclusions.
Oh please.....if your programming is so sacred and you have no obligations to users, why even release it? Or are we to prostate ourselves to pay homage to you and seek comfort in the gift from the annointed one?jemimah wrote: To sum it up, and cut it short: no open source developer has any obligation to users whatsoever. Suggesting otherwise is extremely harmful.
tlchost I trust jemimah to be totally right on that one.
They do it because it is fun to do it. If the users start to demand things that take away the fun and there goes the inner motivation.
If you are able to fix things feeling to be a core and a PITA then what stops you from being a developer yourself.
They do it because it is fun to do it. If the users start to demand things that take away the fun and there goes the inner motivation.
If you are able to fix things feeling to be a core and a PITA then what stops you from being a developer yourself.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
not an ideal solution though
Know what? Barry is DEAD RIGHT!tlchost wrote:Oh please.....if your programming is so sacred and you have no obligations to users, why even release it? Or are we to prostate ourselves to pay homage to you and seek comfort in the gift from the annointed one?jemimah wrote: To sum it up, and cut it short: no open source developer has any obligation to users whatsoever. Suggesting otherwise is extremely harmful.
Spup Frugal HD and USB
Root forever!
Root forever!
- linuxsansdisquedur
- Posts: 248
- Joined: Tue 13 Jan 2009, 21:17
- Location: South of France
never heard 'dows users or 'buntu ones using sort of threat against bill G or M$huttleworth or their devs !!
is puppy and his devs too friendly ?
is the hard work of amateurs doesn't worth as much as work for money ?
It is NOT my opinion !
I like puppy because of its powerful lightness (i went to it because of its) and also for its not professional side (i love it for that utopian way).
Sure, a distro that provide in official OS the way to remasterize and make pupplet (thank to Barry) can't be a one way thinking dogma but a protean one with some anarchy in development and a Barry is needed to unitize it.
I can't imagine Barry leave its beloved creation.
But i'm sure puppy gonna live as long as this forum can work and our shared ideas and work can build a future for it
is puppy and his devs too friendly ?
is the hard work of amateurs doesn't worth as much as work for money ?
It is NOT my opinion !
I like puppy because of its powerful lightness (i went to it because of its) and also for its not professional side (i love it for that utopian way).
Sure, a distro that provide in official OS the way to remasterize and make pupplet (thank to Barry) can't be a one way thinking dogma but a protean one with some anarchy in development and a Barry is needed to unitize it.
I can't imagine Barry leave its beloved creation.
But i'm sure puppy gonna live as long as this forum can work and our shared ideas and work can build a future for it
le max avec le min
@shariebeth, I didn't intend to single you out as specifically as I did. No personal offense intended, "welfare" and "entitlement" are Barry's words. This is a long standing conflict that comes up over and over.
@tclhost, programming is only "sacred" to me. I don't expect others the care about it. When they do, it's surprising. Honestly, gratitude make me nearly as uncomfortable as demands.
@sylvander, I don't necessarily agree with your stats teacher either. But if something is even marginally useful only to me, that's still enough reason to do it.
@ttuuxxx - but tinycore already has the best window manager, FLWM. No need for JWM or icewm. Of course their build of it needs a little work... like Xft support. Anyway, don't take it personally - I'm sure this whole situation will sort itself out when everybody calms down.
@tclhost, programming is only "sacred" to me. I don't expect others the care about it. When they do, it's surprising. Honestly, gratitude make me nearly as uncomfortable as demands.
@sylvander, I don't necessarily agree with your stats teacher either. But if something is even marginally useful only to me, that's still enough reason to do it.
@ttuuxxx - but tinycore already has the best window manager, FLWM. No need for JWM or icewm. Of course their build of it needs a little work... like Xft support. Anyway, don't take it personally - I'm sure this whole situation will sort itself out when everybody calms down.
- MinHundHettePerro
- Posts: 852
- Joined: Thu 05 Feb 2009, 22:22
- Location: SE
-
- Posts: 812
- Joined: Thu 04 Feb 2010, 13:16
- Location: Australia, 1999 Toshiba laptop, 512mb RAM, no HDD, 431 Retro & 421 Retro
Jemimah said:
Personally, I would have said "absolutely bloody amazing"
And if someone has been developing this amazing OS for years and years I think he should be able to take some "time out" without having the finger pointed at him
"pretty darn good" is one way to describe Puppy Linux.The great thing about Puppy is that you don't have to customize it. The out of the box experience is pretty darn good for the size.
Personally, I would have said "absolutely bloody amazing"
And if someone has been developing this amazing OS for years and years I think he should be able to take some "time out" without having the finger pointed at him