The i-opener is a relic from the dot com days. It has 32MB of memory, a builtin 16MB flash disk, and a 266MHz processor. You can buy them on ebay for $30. I am working on a project in Africa that uses these to guide health care workers through patient care in hospitals. We have hacked these to have touchscreens and a second swappable flash disk via an IDE controller. I have something called Midori Linux running on it, and it works okay. Ideally I would like to get a very small, lite and fast version of Linux with firefox running on it. So I am trying to use puppy at the moment, and I am hoping to get minimo (mini-mozilla) running alongside. Any chance I can do this on my 16MB flash disk (and therefore save a lot of money per unit by not needing the second flash disk). Has anybody done minimo on puppy? Please get in touch if you have ideas and or want to get involved. (apologies for the extra post, but I realized this post needed its own topic!)
Mike mikeymckay@gmail.com
Link for Midori Linux: http://m4i.homeip.net/
Puppy Linux on an $30 internet appliance (i-opener)
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mikeymckay
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Lobster
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Re: Puppy Linux on an $30 internet appliance (i-opener)
These are smaller resources than Puppy uses.
There was talk of a console based Puppy but it is undeveloped.
I do not think Puppy is suitable for what you are doing at the moment.
I believe that to survive Puppy needs to move into mobile devices - but next generation (and certainly cheaper than yesterdays $30 devices).
This is something I have mentioned many times and in time the need will arise.
I think you would be better looking at embedded Linux (as you have done). If you wish to develop a console based Puppy than this can be supported as there are many resources that have accumalated with such a possibility. I wish you luck with what you are doing but I do not think Puppy is what you require.
Maybe this Linux
http://www.2x.com/pxes/
which is mentioned here in reference to Puppy
http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/02/13/1854251
Hope that is honest.
Good luck
There was talk of a console based Puppy but it is undeveloped.
I do not think Puppy is suitable for what you are doing at the moment.
I believe that to survive Puppy needs to move into mobile devices - but next generation (and certainly cheaper than yesterdays $30 devices).
This is something I have mentioned many times and in time the need will arise.
I think you would be better looking at embedded Linux (as you have done). If you wish to develop a console based Puppy than this can be supported as there are many resources that have accumalated with such a possibility. I wish you luck with what you are doing but I do not think Puppy is what you require.
Maybe this Linux
http://www.2x.com/pxes/
which is mentioned here in reference to Puppy
http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=06/02/13/1854251
Hope that is honest.
Good luck
Last edited by Lobster on Sat 25 Feb 2006, 01:55, edited 2 times in total.
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mikeymckay
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I still thnk it is possible
Thanks for your suggestion. Maybe this will change your mind though. Currently, we have a deployed system that boots Win98 Lite from a second flash disk that we have added on. Win98 Lite is basic windows with a bunch of cruft stripped out. The system then launches a VB application. At the very least I should be able to boot a simple Linux and then launch an application free of Windows. So I was sort of associating Puppy with Win98 Lite. Also, note the recent thread about running Puppy with less than 24MB of RAM.These are smaller resources than Puppy uses.
There was talk of a console based Puppy but it is undeveloped.
I do not think Puppy is suitable for what you are doing at the moment.
I believe that to survive Puppy needs to move into mobile devices - but next generation (and certainly cheaper than yesterdays $30 devices).
This is something I have mentioned many times and in time the need will arise.
I think you would be better looking at embedded Linux (as you have done). If you wish to develop a console based Puppy than this can be supported as there are many resources that have accumalated with such a possibility. I wish you luck with what you are doing but I do not think Puppy is what you require.
Can you recommend a good (actively developed and supported) embedded Linux?
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mikeymckay
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minimo vs dillo
Minimo is basically a slimmed down firefox. Dillo is small and lite, but it can not do any CSS or Javascript and that is critical for our application.
Basically to prove the concept I need to be able do everything that a VB app does and just as quickly. With firefox and ajax I can do this - so I just need ot figure out how to get these capabilities onto our i-openers.
Basically to prove the concept I need to be able do everything that a VB app does and just as quickly. With firefox and ajax I can do this - so I just need ot figure out how to get these capabilities onto our i-openers.
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Lobster
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Re: I still thnk it is possible
No I am sorry. If you are working with firefox and Ajaxmikeymckay wrote: Can you recommend a good (actively developed and supported) embedded Linux?
this would be good - but you still need a min OS
http://portableapps.com/apps/internet/b ... le_firefox
Maybe someone else can advise?
To do it would require no ramdisk at all so apps. have room to run, as Lobster said, Puppy's not made that way.
With much modification like BladeRunners PXE boot version of Puppy that uses no ramdisk it could work.
I beleave the FULL H.D. install of Puppy (not poormans) uses no ramdisk, maybe not anymore, I'm not sure.
The post you refered to I think shows how to do it, or look for a distro that uses no ramdisk.
With much modification like BladeRunners PXE boot version of Puppy that uses no ramdisk it could work.
I beleave the FULL H.D. install of Puppy (not poormans) uses no ramdisk, maybe not anymore, I'm not sure.
The post you refered to I think shows how to do it, or look for a distro that uses no ramdisk.
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Guest
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mikeymckay
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Its a good idea, but we want to stay away from moving parts. We are talking hundreds if not thousands of machines deployed to some very rough environments. So no moving parts and each hardware is an added cost to a very tight budget.Personaly I woul look into cramming in an old Ebay 2GB or 3GB laptop HD (about $10) into one of those and do a "poor man's" install with 256MB set up as swap.
Good project
Have you tried the "links" browser, a console-based software?
Caution: The following post talks mostly about Puppy - pls be patient, we have the same need for a tiny PC that runs a sophisticated browser.
Anyway, it's really nice to hear about your project. The best chance you have is to run EmptyCrust from the Flash disk, plus your choice of browser. That will need 64 MB of primary storage, as EmptyCrust is already 40+ MB. Therefore, you might just use the standard Puppy, which is a little over 60 MB.
Note that Flash disks are not designed for intensive read-save operation, and additional memory is important. So you would need to expand memory to 64 MB as well
To use limited memory, you might install Puppy to storage, and this will expand the files to 160+ MB, so you would probably need 256 MB flash, part of this will be for swapping (which based on the last point above is not advisable for flash drives). (Hey, I have read somewhere that 50 MB mini-drives are made available for WinXP embedded - this could be useful as swap if adding memory is not possible.)
Now, there was also a mention of that fully-capable IDE adapter (no moving parts) in this Forum, though I cant locate it now. I had it saved somewhere, though...
Will be back as soon as I find the link. Cheers to your project!
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Hi, sorry for the late post, I was travelling all day yesterday and there was that coup threat (Philippines) that hugged my attention all day last Friday
(today is Sunday)
Caution: The following post talks mostly about Puppy - pls be patient, we have the same need for a tiny PC that runs a sophisticated browser.
Anyway, it's really nice to hear about your project. The best chance you have is to run EmptyCrust from the Flash disk, plus your choice of browser. That will need 64 MB of primary storage, as EmptyCrust is already 40+ MB. Therefore, you might just use the standard Puppy, which is a little over 60 MB.
Note that Flash disks are not designed for intensive read-save operation, and additional memory is important. So you would need to expand memory to 64 MB as well
To use limited memory, you might install Puppy to storage, and this will expand the files to 160+ MB, so you would probably need 256 MB flash, part of this will be for swapping (which based on the last point above is not advisable for flash drives). (Hey, I have read somewhere that 50 MB mini-drives are made available for WinXP embedded - this could be useful as swap if adding memory is not possible.)
Now, there was also a mention of that fully-capable IDE adapter (no moving parts) in this Forum, though I cant locate it now. I had it saved somewhere, though...
Will be back as soon as I find the link. Cheers to your project!
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Hi, sorry for the late post, I was travelling all day yesterday and there was that coup threat (Philippines) that hugged my attention all day last Friday
(today is Sunday)EmptyCrust only has the Dillo browser, not what I'd call sophisticated...
A new usr_cram.fs file needed that's less than 24MB (size of the flash drive - 8MB user space).
Don't load the usr_cram.fs file into memory to keep as much as possable free for apps. to run in.
EmptyCrust has a 18MB image.gz file (expanded) + 2MB for kernel, so it'll fit in 32MB with 12MB to spare.
Probably not enough for FireFox or Mozilla, but Opera might be smaller, I don't know.
BUT... if the most of the image.gz were put into the usr_cram file file, more memory would be free.
A tight squeeze at best, more memory would definately help, & more flash wouldn't be bad either.
A new usr_cram.fs file needed that's less than 24MB (size of the flash drive - 8MB user space).
Don't load the usr_cram.fs file into memory to keep as much as possable free for apps. to run in.
EmptyCrust has a 18MB image.gz file (expanded) + 2MB for kernel, so it'll fit in 32MB with 12MB to spare.
Probably not enough for FireFox or Mozilla, but Opera might be smaller, I don't know.
BUT... if the most of the image.gz were put into the usr_cram file file, more memory would be free.
A tight squeeze at best, more memory would definately help, & more flash wouldn't be bad either.
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mikeymckay
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This sounds really good. But I don't quite know how to do that. Any hints?EmptyCrust has a 18MB image.gz file (expanded) + 2MB for kernel, so it'll fit in 32MB with 12MB to spare.
Probably not enough for FireFox or Mozilla, but Opera might be smaller, I don't know.
BUT... if the most of the image.gz were put into the usr_cram file file, more memory would be free.
A tight squeeze at best, more memory would definately help, & more flash wouldn't be bad either.
Looking at your original post you want to run a heavy weight browser & another light weight one also.
There are small linux distros (Browsix is one I think) that are made to be portable web OSs.
But I'm guessing that even they are at least 30MB to 40MB in size with the big browsers in them.
Linux + Xwin + a small browser might fit under 20MB, but 16MB even if it fit would leave no room for user files.
I saw a distro with 1-2 floppys for Linux & 1 with bare bones Xwin, with Opera at ~5MB it might fit in ~10MB.
Rearranging Linux (Puppy) isn't easy, it's what I'm doing now with LanPuppy.
I suggest you look for premade distros (you probably have), I'll fiddle with it a little bit & we'll post back here .
There are small linux distros (Browsix is one I think) that are made to be portable web OSs.
But I'm guessing that even they are at least 30MB to 40MB in size with the big browsers in them.
Linux + Xwin + a small browser might fit under 20MB, but 16MB even if it fit would leave no room for user files.
I saw a distro with 1-2 floppys for Linux & 1 with bare bones Xwin, with Opera at ~5MB it might fit in ~10MB.
Rearranging Linux (Puppy) isn't easy, it's what I'm doing now with LanPuppy.
I suggest you look for premade distros (you probably have), I'll fiddle with it a little bit & we'll post back here .
I looked for Rules Linux on lots of distro sites with no luck, gotta link?
I took Slim Linux which has Xwin & a min. WM & put Puppy's Opera into it, no big suprise... no workie.
It says the startup script has an unclosed { , I looked & of course the script's just fine.
I tried to run the executable how the script does it & it says opera not found (it's there of course).
I copied ldd from Puppy into Slim & running it on the Opera exec. gets a syntax error.
Anyway... the size is < 8MB, 18MB expanded with kernel, so the flash has ~ 8MB free & memory > 12MB free.
If the ramdisk image file were made into a squash file & use Puppy's kernel then < 30MB of mem. is free.
If it Opera could be made to work the rest of it might be worth the trouble.
I took Slim Linux which has Xwin & a min. WM & put Puppy's Opera into it, no big suprise... no workie.
It says the startup script has an unclosed { , I looked & of course the script's just fine.
I tried to run the executable how the script does it & it says opera not found (it's there of course).
I copied ldd from Puppy into Slim & running it on the Opera exec. gets a syntax error.
Anyway... the size is < 8MB, 18MB expanded with kernel, so the flash has ~ 8MB free & memory > 12MB free.
If the ramdisk image file were made into a squash file & use Puppy's kernel then < 30MB of mem. is free.
If it Opera could be made to work the rest of it might be worth the trouble.
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mikeymckay
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http://slimlinux.freezope.org/
http://freshmeat.net/projects/slimlinux/
I can't find Rules Linux either.
A good site for lots of Linux distros. all in a list.
http://old.lwn.net/Distributions/
There's distros for handhelds, but most of them seem to be for paticular models, some say they'll work on other units.
That probably is definately worth some time looking into, if one will work it'll have apps & stuff for it.
As I said, I put Slim Linux & Opera together & it's ~8MB, but Opera doesn't want to work, can't see what's wrong.
http://freshmeat.net/projects/slimlinux/
I can't find Rules Linux either.
A good site for lots of Linux distros. all in a list.
http://old.lwn.net/Distributions/
There's distros for handhelds, but most of them seem to be for paticular models, some say they'll work on other units.
That probably is definately worth some time looking into, if one will work it'll have apps & stuff for it.
As I said, I put Slim Linux & Opera together & it's ~8MB, but Opera doesn't want to work, can't see what's wrong.
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BlackAdder
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Rule Linux is the one I think you are referring to.
http://www.rule-project.org
http://www.rule-project.org
Searching for login info I found this:
http://projects.o-hand.com/matchbox/
http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT5966737838.html
A WM that looks to be VERY close to what your looking for!
http://projects.o-hand.com/matchbox/
http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT5966737838.html
A WM that looks to be VERY close to what your looking for!