"Just Works" Configuration of Ethernet at bootup

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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ecomoney
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"Just Works" Configuration of Ethernet at bootup

#1 Post by ecomoney »

Puppy is great at detecting hardware and "Just Working", but for one subtle point. An ethernet internet connection via dhcp (by far the most common type) is not auto-detected and configured. With Ubuntu and Windows it is.

Would there be any reason for this? I understand BarryK uses some kind of dial up/satellite connection. Could this be an oversight?
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SirDuncan
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#2 Post by SirDuncan »

As I understand it, the original reason was that DHCP on boot was run synchronously. This meant that the boot process paused while this happened. Barry felt it was better to have it not take up time on the first boot in case there wasn't actually a live connection or the user was just booting up to do PC rescue work where the connection was unnecessary.

Now that DHCP is run as a background process, I don't think that is still an issue. It's probably more of a legacy thing at this point. Like you said, Barry may not think about it since he doesn't use it.
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drongo
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Minimally invasive

#3 Post by drongo »

Don't think it's an oversight. Puppy started off as a minimally invasive live-CD. It didn't mount disks or connect to networks. It was more like a tiny "forensic" CD but without all of the applications. I think this is probably a question of philosophy rather than a mistake.

Puppy leaves you completely in control. If you want to install it on your harddrive it doesn't repartition the drive and destroy your boot partition so you can only use Puppy. (Unlike some Linux distros).

Probably better to regard Puppy as a base from which other distros can be built (as MU has suggested). Some of us, however, are happy with it as it is.

If you want auto-DHCP on ethernet, automounting of disks etc you'll have to modify some of the scripts in Puppy.

Woof should make this kind of customisation (at least of apps) much easier.

I vote for not doing everything automatically and leaving me in charge of my machine.

If Puppy does everything the same as other distros what would be the point of having it? if every distro cloned the functionality of every other distro you would only need one distro.

Leave the base Puppy alone, it's fine as it is. Modify it for your needs.

I don't run an internet cafe in Scunthorpe. I don't need a Linux which is optimised for this.

If I wanted to use Ubuntu or Windows I would. I don't want to. I use Windows at work because I have to. I use Puppy (and other Linuxes) at home because I want to.

Puppy is a good foundation for building other, app-heavy Linux distros. Don't muck about with the foundations, you'll muck up the rest of the building!

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Re: Minimally invasive

#4 Post by tlchost »

drongo wrote:
I don't run an internet cafe in Scunthorpe. I don't need a Linux which is optimised for this.
Neither do I. However, I'd love to know how to do it...since there is requirement to use Puppy as the OS for an application that will be used by folks who may not have the skills to setup the Internet connection.

Thom

tubby
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#5 Post by tubby »

Try adding to your /startup dir
dhclient
dhclient-script
dhcpcd (symlink to dhclient)
dhcpd
All downloadable from the ibiblio packages.
Worked ok for me on a frugal install, found and connected to ETH0.
You may not need all of the above but i went for belt and braces. :lol:

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runtt21
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#6 Post by runtt21 »

Might be a good idea to have the firewall running first.

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racepres
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#7 Post by racepres »

Well.. I use "full" installs, and my box always comes up connected to the "last connection used". Not a new one, however. Good enough for the girls I go with...
RP

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drongo
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#8 Post by drongo »

If you do a full install or a frugal or you save an sfs file from a live-CD session and you go through the network wizard once, tick dhcp and then save the session on closedown you will get automatic connection every time you boot. (As far as I know, I have never done a full or frugal install of Puppy.)

Is there a requirement for the live-CD to automatically do dhcp on the ethernet connection when there is no sfs file? Well I don't have that requirement. If other folks do, fine, but make it an option not a default.

If you want a machine that will boot off a CD and auto-dhcp why not create an sfs file?

I absolutely agree that Puppy should be easy to use but if we start reducing user options how will it differ from Windows or Ubuntu?

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#9 Post by tlchost »

drongo wrote: I absolutely agree that Puppy should be easy to use but if we start reducing user options how will it differ from Windows or Ubuntu?
A software package has been produced for Senior Citizens that is extremely simple to use. I suggested that the Linux version could be distributed using Puppy as the OS, and produced an iso for that.

The applications folks want to roll-out the ISO for distribution in Europe and the US....and requested a version that did NOT require setting the internet connection parameters.

So, instead of debating issues, I'd simply like to produce the ISO as requested.

Thom

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drongo
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Senior puppies

#10 Post by drongo »

So make an ISO for seniors. Puppy base is a 100MB iso or thereabouts. It can't contain everything or please everyone as is. Since it is customisable I would guess that it could be made useful to many, many people.

Either users can customise it themselves or devs can produce variants. Turbo-pup has double-click enabled for instance.

With a live-Cd you only really have about three options.

Developer decides on what he thinks are sensible defaults and you are stuck with them.

Developer decides on what he thinks are sensible defaults but has lots of simple dialogue screens to change stuff after initial boot. (Current Puppy base mode of operation.)

Developer lets user customise everything and makes them make lots of choices at every boot. (Currently you only really need to choose screen resolution, keyboard and time-zone. I'd be happier with more, but I bet most users wouldn't be.)

(Puppy has fourth way of saving decisions in sfs file.)

I don't want the standard base Puppy to have an unalterable default of "dhcp on". That changes the nature of the beast from minimally invasive to "we know best". In my opinion that is a major change in philosophy.

Puppy is small and agile.

There are bigger, maybe slower to boot, versions for people who want MAC look and feel, children's games, retro game emulators, graphics, religious studies, ham radio programs etc.

I fully support the idea of a variant for less technical seniors and variants with assistive technologies included but these should no more be part of a standard Puppy than, say, a genealogy suite of programs surely? It's only 100 MB, not 650 MB or 4.5 GB.

It's great that a Puppy variant can run on an ASUS EE (or whatever it's called) but it shouldn't mean the base iso can't run on anything else.

Help - save our Puppy from special interest groups who know what's best for everybody. I'm part of the group "everybody" and I like stuff just the way it is.

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#11 Post by nooby »

I fully support the idea of a variant for less technical seniors and variants with assistive technologies included but these should no more be part of a standard Puppy than, say, a genealogy suite of programs surely? It's only 100 MB, not 650 MB or 4.5 GB.
Could one not do a compromize.

At boot it ask if one are experienced setting up networks and sound and whathaveyou and if one answer one are not good at it then it do things automatically and if one are experienced then it let the thing work as you wanted it? :)

I too often fail to do the network thing.

so I chose Puppeee 4.3.1 because that one do get the wired LAN out of the box. Sound works too. Streaming video works. I used month on this 2008 and never got it to work until nimblex linux had a version that just worked. You tube failed for me until I found a version that just worked. Puppeee does that.

I tested some 40 different linux distros and only five worked out ofthe box and if it failed then I failed to install it too. So some of us "stoopid" people need the preinstalled just working out of box versions.

I like Puppy very much and want one for the advanced people and one for us who always fail with things like computers.

that way everybody is happy.

Maybe Woof and Quirky will get me what I want when they are ready for stable versions. total customization.
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not an ideal solution though

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Re: Senior puppies

#12 Post by tlchost »

drongo wrote:So make an ISO for seniors. Puppy base is a 100MB iso or thereabouts. It can't contain everything or please everyone as is. Since it is customisable I would guess that it could be made useful to many, many people.

I fully support the idea of a variant for less technical seniors and variants with assistive technologies included but these should no more be part of a standard Puppy than, say, a genealogy suite of programs surely? It's only 100 MB, not 650 MB or 4.5 GB.
It is made....and I simply asked how to get it to autodetect the internet....I never said to change the puppy basic ISO, create a huge ISO or anything like that.

If you can tell me how to do it, I'd appreciate it....I simply don't have the time to engage in the Puppy-Dialectics.
It's great that a Puppy variant can run on an ASUS EE (or whatever it's called) but it shouldn't mean the base iso can't run on anything else.

Help - save our Puppy from special interest groups who know what's best for everybody. I'm part of the group "everybody" and I like stuff just the way it is.
Try to stay on topic.....none of the stuff in the two paragraphs quoted above was mentioned, suggested or desired.

thom

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#13 Post by tlchost »

nooby wrote: Could one not do a compromize.
Having a compromise might offend the purists....I never suggested chaniging Puppy....simply asked how to incorporate a feature in an iso I created.

I suppose I'll have to back to the applications developers and tell them that even if they want to have an international rollout of their linux version, even if they liked the iso I made for them with all the obvious advantages of Puppy, that a simply request to have the system auto detect the internet violates some obscure rule.

Thom

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#14 Post by tubby »

Have you tried my suggestion?.

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#15 Post by tlchost »

tubby wrote:Have you tried my suggestion?.
Sorry, did not see it.....will try and report back...thanks

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#16 Post by drongo »

@tlchost,

tubby has told you how to do it. Nobody has told you you can't do it. There aren't any rules, obscure or otherwise, as far as I know that prevent you from doing whatever you want with your version of Puppy. You might have to make sources available - but even that is moot as most of what makes Puppy unique is uncompiled bash scripts so no sources are required.

I was merely trying to explain to ecomoney why things were originally done that way (i.e. no autoconnect to networks) and why I think it would be a good idea to stay that way.

Nobody else manages to stay on topic, don't see why that rule should only apply to me. I was using an example to try and illustrate a point, Changing the default network behaviour of Puppy changes the way Puppy works and may then make it unsuitable for some types of work for which it is currently eminently suitable. If I'm trying to recover data files or remove viruses from a machine maybe I don't want to connect to a network. Perhaps I don't want to disconnect the ethernet connections from the rear of the machine either.

With all due respect, and no matter how laudable the intent, specialist Puppies for internet cafes and non-technical Silver Surfers are special interest projects.

The deafening silence from others shows me that there is no support for my position or that no-one cares either way. So I shall withdraw and sulk.

Bye.

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#17 Post by runtt21 »

drongo ,you are correct.The official puppy should stay just like it is.It great!!

If someone wants an autoconnect pup ,THEY, should build it. Even if its just a prof of concept project.

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Re: "Just Works" Configuration of Ethernet at bootup

#18 Post by WhoDo »

ecomoney wrote:Puppy is great at detecting hardware and "Just Working", but for one subtle point. ... [snip] ... Could this be an oversight?
At the risk of reigniting heated debates of days gone by, it is important to note that neither Puppy nor any other distribution will "just work" for everyone! There will always be "one subtle point" that grates on someone's nerves, as this does on yours.

The great thing about Puppy is the ease with which people can remaster the original to their own taste. I'm with drongo and runtt21 on this - that Puppy is fine as it is. Even newbies can use a "Connect" icon to get their network running if they wish. Although the Internet has become ubiquitous, not everyone wants to go there from the first boot.

You asked for a reason and the answer is "freedom of choice", which is at the heart not only of Puppy but of all FOSS.

@tclhost - Thom, I agree your request was a reasonable one. I hope you now have your answer

@drongo - some people just rub other people the wrong way without even trying. Heck, I may even be guilty of that myself at times, but the OP is a past master! I don't see any "groundswell" of opinion driving Puppy away from its original philosophy of being a LiveCD. If you are concerned about changes to that philosophy, the project leader for the next base Puppy release and current guardian of that philosophy is Technosaurus. :wink:
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#19 Post by MinHundHettePerro »

As it is, Puppy Just Works!

For any new flavour of Puppy I try out (mostly, manually installed frugals), upon first boot, i.e. when the OP's requested auto-connection to the internet fails, I can happily forget to pull out the cable between my computer and my router. I can then, at my own pace, set up a firewall, disable the various auto-update features of any given browser etc., before I click the connect to i-net icon, and then go on-line within seconds, "and It Just Works!" (reassured that I set up my new installation as I require, before any auto-connection unadvertantly goes onto the internet and connects to who-knows-where, "google", even :shock: ).
I'm quite happy, with not having to care, whether my i-net cable is disconnected or not for my first boots :).

fwiw :)/
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#20 Post by T_B »

I think a "just works" configuration is a very good idea. You could make it the default choice when you boot a cd and are only presented with something like "you want to Puppy to set-up your internet connection automatically? Y/n"
Puppy is already one of the easiest Linux distro's to install for new to Linux users, and this will make it even easier.

Of course you can create your own Puppy, but that is not the one newbies will download. They will download the official version and will complain internet doesn't work with Linux.
To make as much as possible work 'out of the box' is a big selling point.

Most posters on this forum are already into Linux, but how many people have tried one Linux distro failed and never tried again? Might be because of things like this.

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