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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects
XOpup Interest Group. Puppy Linux for the OLPC XO-1 laptop
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1685

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan 2010, 03:03    Post subject: Re: try  

raffy wrote:

"Could you help us boot Puppy in the XO-1?" is an honest enough question, isn't it?

Actually no, if you do not have a response on the answer "ok, what is your problem"? And _I_ do not. I'm sure when it comes to that, questions will be asked and answers will be given.

Quote:
But you chose to froth instead:
Quote:
BTW is the first time that I hear that a FOSS piece of software must be replace by a proprietary one so another FOSS piece of software can run!

Developing free software can cost the intended user, right?

Wrong. Development of free software _does_ cost (maybe more than the commercial) but the cost is not enforced on the end user, which is the intended user. Specially if you consider the XOpup intended users.
No government or other organization is "asking" for an XOpup.
Unless you want me to pay Laughing

Quote:
I guess you should begin trusting people rather than associating prejudices with them.

I believed I made all the arguments I could. In contrast you never offered any argument for the _need_ of a BIOS. Please do instead of resorting to prejudice accusations.
Flames can not cover it. Tell us why a bios is mandatory for puppy.

Last edited by mavrothal on Tue 12 Jan 2010, 05:40; edited 3 times in total
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4774
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan 2010, 04:57    Post subject: email  

hailpuppy wrote:
HI Mavrothal, why cant we seek help of Mitch Bradley who developed OFW for xo ( He can be reached at ~snip~ ). In a previous post you had wished we had a FORTH programmer to help us with this if my memory is correct. Then after that we may be able to seek the help of Barry in this regard. Mavrothal, I ve seen you being very active on OLPC related issues . You may have even contacted Mitch by now.

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OFW_FAQ

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Wmb%40firmworks.com

Hope above links would help you guys.
Good luck!!!


OK, I sent an email to Mitch CC ttuuxxx. Please reply to Mitch directly.

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amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2257

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan 2010, 05:30    Post subject:  

If I understand all this correctly, it is not a BIOS problem at all. If the Puppy kernel even begins to boot, then there is no BIOS problem. As mavrothal has suggested, the problem lies within Puppy's init sequence. He correctly states that the Puppy init process is extremely complex. It is not tailored for use on the XO, and usage from hard-drives or removeable reas-write media is an afterthought. from the start, the Puppy init process was conceived for a LiveCD distro. In general, this process is *very* different from a normal boot sequence. To get Puppy running on the XO, it will probably be necessary to start from scratch with the intrd and init scripts. Not doing so means that an extra layer of complexity will have to be added to the existing scripts -and for a situation which is completely unforseen by the curent init sequence. Adding to the existing setup would mean a much slower boot than what is necessary. Replacing the init scripts with a more 'normal' init routine -modified for use with BIOS-less XO, would yeild a better result and be easier to implement.

I am still of the opinion that trying to make the OS run from RAM on such low-powered hardware is a mistake. Sure, it will be hard to improve on what other distros have done as far as boot-times. But there is still plenty of room to implement other facets of the Puppy paradigm -the desktop with the GUI helpers, the root-only or power-user concept. I think that the desktop concept that Puppy uses should be separated from the boot concepts it uses. In other words, a more normal installation -fully read-write and running from the installed read-write media, but with a Puppy desktop interface.
One size does not fit all, and it is a waste of time to try and make the XO act just like a PC running from a LiveCD. To reach the goal, one should be willing to abandon any pre-conceptions which stand in the way.
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1685

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan 2010, 06:13    Post subject:  

amigo wrote:
In other words, a more normal installation -fully read-write and running from the installed read-write media, but with a Puppy desktop interface.

This is done with palydayz' uPup451 (and hopefully 453 in a couple of days).
The problem is that running an OS from a (camera) SDcard or USB stick, even in a fast machine, is slow because of the extremely slow random read writes of small files in these media. Adding the fact that nobody really knows what the actual erase block in these media is (needed to format them optimally for ext2/3) and that you have to erase and move the entire block if you need to write something else that crosses block boundaries, makes things even worse. I have experienced delays of 1-3 seconds waiting for the read/writes.
The sfs loading into RAM has three additional advantage. a) When read and writes are needed, involve big continuous files where SDcads/USBs can comfortably go up to 6-8MB/sec. b) You do not need to reformat the card/stick maintaining the factory block optimized vfat formatting. c) you minimize wear and tear of the card and reliability of the install.
It is not really the boot times that "worry" me, you boot your machine once every day or every few hours. Is the actual continuous use delays and overly sluggish feeling that is the problem.

+1 for the rest Very Happy
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan 2010, 07:55    Post subject:  

mavrothal

Quote:
The problem is that running an OS from a (camera) SDcard or USB stick, even in a fast machine, is slow because of the extremely slow random read writes of small files in these media


that sounds more like slow 1st generation sd card to me

check out OCZ, I posted a link in the AAO thread here

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=380663#380663

They make fast SSDs & excellent flash drives

SDs for cameras need to be 300x or so for good write speeds, e.g. Sandisk Extreme 3, but flash is fastest I think

Don't use SDHC as they crawl IMHO

Aitch Smile
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1685

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan 2010, 09:47    Post subject:  

Aitch
Thanks for the info. AnandTech had actually a nice article on these drives

Aitch wrote:


SDs for cameras need to be 300x or so for good write speeds, e.g. Sandisk Extreme 3, but flash is fastest I think

Don't use SDHC as they crawl IMHO

Aitch Smile


XO-1 can only use SDHC cards and USB sticks. SD slot is nicely tacked under the screen and a perfect place for a "permanent" drive as oppose to a usb stick that can be removed at any point by mistake.
Normaly I use class 6 cards on the XO even if I have a SanDisk Extreme. A $60 card is an overkill for a $200 laptop but even worse, it does not perform any better than the $10 Transcend or Kingston class 6 card. XO-1's card reader is also pretty "picky"... (long story)
Anyway the bottom line is that talking about the XO-1 (and the upcoming XO-1.5) SDHC cards is the likely way to go. Thus RAM-running-puppy a good option.
(see here an extensive discussion regarding SD storage for the XO specifically, if interested)
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4774
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan 2010, 20:18    Post subject: Reply  

Please find Mitch Bradley's reply (attached).
mitch-reply-2010-jan-13.zip
Description  Reply by Mitch Bradley re: "Help in Booting Puppy Linux in the XO-1"
zip

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Filename  mitch-reply-2010-jan-13.zip 
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hailpuppy

Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jan 2010, 23:22    Post subject:  

hi bUddies,
Thanks raffy you've managed to get Mitch also involved in this effort it seems. Very Happy . I see only one missing piece in this,Barry to see this thread!!!. Im sure if he sees this he l to join in. Like Raffy did if a BIG GUY in the puppy field like ttuuxxx can invite Barry to join in this would get much easier i guess. by the way as I said i am no tech guy have zero knowledge in linux compared to you guys.if raffy can get Mitch to realy get involved in this it would be even greater.In his mail he himself has said that he was too interested in porting puppy. So we can keep our hopes up i guess.
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10821
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan 2010, 00:09    Post subject:  

Hi guys I read mitch's reply, I'll give it another shot tonight or tomoorow, I usually get frustrated with Xo and go back to another project and come back again, lol Its just that it takes so long to compile a kernel, change the settings, build a release, transfer to a sdcard, test it and within 5 seconds it fails, lol we are talking 4-5 hrs of very borring stuff just to see it go up in smoke in 5 seconds, lol sometimes I do this 1-2 times and skip over to another project for a day or 2, etc but at least I keep trying Wink
ttuuxxx

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hailpuppy

Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan 2010, 03:06    Post subject:  

hi ttuuxxx,

Please keep it up ttuuxxx,if you get puppy to run in ram on xo puppy will be the all time most successful linux distro to ever reach xo.We are all with you,Im sure Mitch will join hands with you if you reach him with your success so far with xo.Nobody can resist a being impressed at such consistent "never say die"effort!!! Damn!! not a day passes without me regretting that I do not have the necessary skills to help you out in this project.
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1685

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan 2010, 03:47    Post subject:  

Raffy good you e-mailed Mitch (I'm serious).
However, his answer have us exactly where we are. To be specific.
I do use an OLPC kernel with aufs2 and squashfs support and the proper olpc.fth for paths ect. All these are well known. With these (and an olpc initrd) I can get puppy to work in full install which means that OFW is OK with puppy.

Last night I tried lemimah's Puppeee which is designed to boot from an SD/USB after I changed vmliuz and zp431315.sfs (the kernel modules) to an OLPC's ones as well as the "version" with the corrected md5sums . Boots and guess what? "Can not find the sfs files" Sad as all the other pupplets...

Let me repeat once more. Is the damn init script people! (obviously damn only for the XO Very Happy )
The problem is that the init script (and the entire initrd) is the exclusive territory of Burry Kauler (ok maybe Big_Bash too). Very few people even attempt to touch it. So I think hailpuppy you are ritght, BK is the man for this.

Now ttuuxxx, kernel building is 30 min work and I already send you an easy howto. I can also send you an already compiled kernel with squashfs and Aufs2 support all you need is to rpm -i it and is installed. But is not going to cut it! Is the initrd, not the kernel not the bios not the OFW not anything else! If there is something that needs work, is the init. You do not need to build anything else and spend 5 hours work each time. Just get an initrd to find the sfs files in the stick. Even if the SFS files are the wrong ones for the XO doesn't matter. You are done! Then is all downhill.
PS: If you seriously want to look at puppy init, $pmedia and/or $pdev1 is where the problem lays I believe.

Last edited by mavrothal on Wed 13 Jan 2010, 04:33; edited 1 time in total
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4774
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan 2010, 04:01    Post subject: one file  

Quirky originally started as a one-file implementation. That way, the program sfs will be there in RAM and must be easy to find. (From previous posts, ttuuxxx is trying Quirky on the XO-1.)
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1685

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan 2010, 04:35    Post subject: Re: one file  

raffy wrote:
Quirky originally started as a one-file implementation. That way, the program sfs will be there in RAM and must be easy to find. (From previous posts, ttuuxxx is trying Quirky on the XO-1.)

Yes, but is not implemented yet and as far as I know ttuuxxx is not trying(ed) quircky/woof builds yet.
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hailpuppy

Joined: 28 Oct 2009
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan 2010, 04:46    Post subject:  

Hi Mavrothal,

Why dont you try to contact BK on this. Iv PM him yesterday on this and still its in outbox.
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4774
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Wed 13 Jan 2010, 14:46    Post subject: quirky-004 (single file)  

We already have Barry's attention:

"Test single-file Quirky"
http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=01337
Quote:
..if you can get the kernel to start booting, that's it, you should get a desktop..

..the parameters are very simple, something like this to boot from a USB Flash drive:

kernel quir004.t00
append pmedia=usbflash

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