Why we should forget about converting Windows Users

[john biles]

Hello to those who really want to be here in the Linux World,
I've spent a lot of my time working on TEENpup to make it as "Window User" friendly as possible in the hope of converting people to Linux. I've spent a large amount of time trying to convert family, friends, workmates and anyone else who would listen. How many did I convert answer = none.

Not one person I 've shown Linux has become a Linux user in any form. Why? Simple, they don't want to be Linux user's, they want to be Windows user's. Now with this revelation comes the exciting prospect that the User I should target TEENpup at is the person excited about Linux and the freedom it brings to people like myself who like knowing how their PC's Operating System works.

Lets take the average Windows User's I know, do they want to know how their PC works? No it just another appliance. They just expect it to work. Now here's where I've been getting it wrong. I've been trying to get TEENpup to work like Windows which had hundreds of daemons running in the background baby sitting these so called PC User's hopefully getting them out of trouble. Doesn't always work does it, and we hear them complain all the time how crap Windows is.

So how did I find out about Linux? Did someone work on me, keep giving me different Linux Distro's to try until they won me over, NO!

My brother is a computer animator and because he had 1 legal copy of Windows and 5 copies of that 1 legal copy of Windows running on his 6 PC's set up with Maya Animation Software, when Microsoft brought in that online validation software that scanned your PC to see if Windows was a legal copy or not and he could no longer update 5 of the 6 PC's he had he turned to Linux and told me about it. Maya also makes a SuSE version and this is what got my brother interest in Linux. He later couldn't get Maya running as fast in Linux as it did in Windows, so he went back to Windows.

So from discovering there was this free Operating System I'd never heard about, I decided to investigate what this Linux thing was. Nobody gave me a CD with Linux on it. I brought a magazine that had the whole of Debian 3.1 on 2 DVD's included and little did I know how lucky I was in finding that Magazine. Those 2 Debian DVD's are the most prized iso's I have.

Some of you may thing I'm angry at all those Windows User's I tried to convert to Linux and this is why I'm posting this now. I was months ago and haven't show anyone a Distro in at least 6 months, don't speak about Linux anymore to anyone. To be honest I hope Linux never comes mainstream, I like being part of an exclusive group of Computer Users who know better. My 3 and 5 year old daughters are Linux Users and I take great pride in seeing them navigate the menu and find the game they want to play. Linux is allowing them to collect knowledge that they would never get using Windows. I know they'll have no trouble when they go to school and use PC's.

Simply I think Linux is "Super Cool" and I think I'll make TEENpup the Hardest Linux Version there is to weed out those that should really stay in the Windows world where they belong. Let's see no Menu, no Toolbar all Applications have to be started from the command line. I like it.

Hey Complaining Windows User's, I laughing on the inside at you!!

Linux the future of Windows, the future is OPEN.

So did someone twist your arm and force you to become a Linux User?
What's your story.

[droope]

Hi there. I don't think there is a real need to make linux harder... really

In my case, just like you said, noone told me to use linux, I was simply recommended to do so by my father. Of course, I didn't listen to him, I was a bored windows user, but felt ok about it.

But a day came that my hard drive passed away, and I had no money to buy a new one.Also, at that time the school I had been attending to asked me to build a project, and, as I had read how easy it was earlier, I decided that the project I was going to develop was a linux distro.

So that was my first experience with linux, an attempt to make a spanish version of Puppy linux, without having a hard drive.


So I am kind of new here, since that happened in 2008. But I must say, linux has boosted my skills a lot. Now, instead of playing, I code. and i like it.

Cheers!
Droope.

PS. I really believe your efforts in building TeenPup have been useful. I, personally have not used it, but I believe there is a lot of people who are currently using it, right?

[Lobster]

Great post John.
Glad your daughters are being brought up in the way of the Penguin.
All my family use Windows.

I started with Slackware and then Knoppix but it was Puppy that made everything fun, educational and accessible.

I like Xandros (on the Eeepc) and OSX on the Mac, which I also use a bit.

Many people use a second big dog Linux. I quite often install them but never find them being used.

I like Puppy Users who seem more courteous and friendly. I just enjoy using Puppy.

[Sylvander]

I regularly post at the PC-Guide forums, and was [still am] running Win2000Pro, and most people there were running XP and disliking Vista, and waiting for Windows7 to be released.

But I was disliking more and more, the "Big-brother" way that Windows was going.
I was either going to be forced to upgrade to XP, which was already out of date, or else wait until a new Windows was released that was at least well thought of.
But I don't like to be manipulated by a big-brother Windows operating system.

I'd tried a number of the major Linux distros, and found doing the simplest of things seemed to be difficult.
That business of typing the sudo command in a terminal and providing passwords.
Too much like making a simple thing look difficult. [Seemed so to me as a total beginner to Linux]

So I was talking on the phone to another old-time regular at the PC-Guide, ErnieK, and explaining this and that, and he said "why don't you give Puppy Linux a try?"

That was all it took.

Downloading a 100MB iso file was quick and easy.
Burning it to a CD-RW disk was easy.
Booting it was easy.

Now this is the bit I really liked:
During the boot sequence, when I was expected to choose various configuration settings...
IT ACTUALLY EXPLAINED THINGS!
Nice one!

Then when it got to the desktop, the 1st thing that caught my eye was a red link to an information window.
Another nice one!

So as instructed I used the "Connect" icon and connected to the internet.
How easy was that?
Another nice one!

The more I explored the better it got.
It was SO FAST !
I discovered "X File Explorer" [Xfe].
SO MUCH BETTER THAN WINDOWS EXPLORER!
And there were LOTS of Puppies, all more or less different to each other.
And all FREE!
And one Puppy could fix Windows or any other Puppy.
[I normally have at least 3; one as a conventional install on an internal HDD partition; one installed to a 1GB Flash Drive; one as a frugal install with a pup_save file on my internal F: partition]
And making backups of various partition contents with programs run within Puppy is really easy.
And non-destructively re-arranging partitions using GParted is really nice.
AND...
AND...
I just want to explore what the various Puppies & puplets can do.

I've wanted TEENPUP for a long time now, and I'm waiting for your new version you say you're releasing in September, that works with more modern hardware [mine has a PCI to IDE RAID Controller Card].

Some of the latest features added in version 4.3beta1 are NICE!

And even an ordinary user like myself can help by trying out the odd new program, and reporting back on how it performs.
With Windows I've never been able to interact with the makers of software.

Oh, and by the way...
I think what I've been posting at the PC-Guide forums has resulted in a few individuals either switching to Puppy, or adding it to their list of OS's in use.
Even Paul Komski [one of the most knowledgeable contributors] has begun suggesting people use it in certain circumstances. [He runs a copy himself]

[big_bass]

Hey
John,droope ,lobster,Sylvander


sometimes we want everyone else to be happy with everything that we are doing

but we have to get over that limitation that everyone is going to be happy with everything we do


we have to do what we believe is right

and keeping to the linux modular{ install what you want} remove any program that isnt linux friendly that works for only one distro or only for one version

motivate and support people to write programs that are linux friendly and work for many linux distros (if possible) yes, I said that even
puppy code that only works in puppy I consider non-linux friendly


so you have more testers and more developement and less ego based
code that will eventually end up in a cyber junkyard of broken unuseable code



windows users ? let them alone
focus on linux users and new linux users




Joe

[4-stroke]

I was about to write a huge post about how I came to use Linux...

Screw it...

This:

windows users ? let them alone
focus on linux users and new linux users

sums it up.

[bugman]

i am here partly for the philosophy, partly for the aesthetics

[partly for the anti-corporatism, partly for the minimalism]

as far as converting people goes, i do not care much for evangelism

and most people i know are somewhat afraid of their computers

[and as long as dumbshit bugman will still fix their windows problems for them . . . ]

[ttuuxxx]

I've converted or helped to convert lots of new users on here who were frustrated with windows and frustrated with puppy, The best way to convert windows users over is simple, don't push linux on them, slowly educate them. Its always better not to talk about windows when trying to convert someone, just push linux, like instead of saying, "Windows is full of virus/spyware and it crashes a lot" Say "Linux doesn't get virus/adware and its stable/free" etc. Well thats how I look at it
ttuuxxx

[DaveS]

Often, the best you can do is just make people aware there is a viable alternative to Windows/Mac. Curiosity will then do it, or...................... not. Also, making somebodys old inadequate hardware live again.................

[tlchost]

Hey Complaining Windows User's, I laughing on the inside at you!!

It's good that folks who make statements like the one above have decided to forget about converting windows users.

I'm one of the folks that uses Windows, and Linux in my web hosting business and Puppy to teach myself more about Linux.

I'm sure glad I started using Puppy before I saw your comment.

[john biles]

Adults say Linux is to hard to learn, Children don't.

[john biles]

another

[cthisbear]

John:

No shortage of Dum Dum in this world.
Just check out the Lemmings in the Windows Whirlpool forum
posts. The spin never stops.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum/10

////////////

But I feel that you are a little tired at the moment.
A bit like Barry was when he relinquished being the
Supreme Commander for Puppy 4.2.1.
But now he's back in there beavering away.

Being human doesn't mean being smart.
You have 30 plus years of MS beating their drum.
So do you think that people will forget that MS tune easily?
Like one of those bad ads that you try to forget,
but which pops into your head occasionally.

All that you have to remember is that Microsofts Hocus Pocus
has turned in Porko Focus.
They are driving people away with license checks, updates
that turn off legit users...needing complete re-insatls etc.
Mate! they don't need your help as well.

MS are our own best friends.
Windows 7....too many issues already,
people can't even mount their drives.

I think that you have put out ripper Puplets.
Just continue along that path, don't get disillusioned.

Hardware support is the goal.

I fix enough Windows machines, but when i want a rest
from the wild side....I check out a Puppy.

Want internet banking....still run Puppy 1.07 multisession,
with all my bookmarks but no more saves.
yeah over three and a half years old, New Year 2005 released.

gpossil, ttuuxxx, Barry are really getting into the swing of things.
Let's not forget the big fish....Big Bass: also the Macpup team,
Grey for NOP, Sidders with the great HSB, Ecomoneys Cybercafe
is fantastic...and Hacao who even releases his version in English.
Mu a pioneer...Muppy 3 flavours releases. WhoDo of course.
We have so much talent in Puppy.

So I agree don't try to convert the masses...total waste of time.
If you release your next Teenpup in a years time, write the code
when you feel up to it...do it that way.

But keep it simple. Puppy is Linux...but Linux ain't Puppy.

Maybe less clutter on the desktop and simple menus.
Have an option for commandline for people wanting
to learn that. Like Sidders has in Hansamben to lock
and unlock his desktop....you could lock and unlock commandline.

Personally I hate commandlines.
I wants now, I want fast with low end comps, I want usability.
I've often been tempted to set up a Puppy booth at
the North Rocks Computer fair.

Have different low end machines running different Pups.
Just selling enough Puppy cds to cover costs and donating the
bulk back to Barry, Caneri, even John Murga etc.

Nothing better than letting the punters have a go.
If they bork it even show how quickly it can recover.

Just my thoughts big fella.
Maybe if you had met some of your world wide Teenpup users,
who have been able to keep an old comp going through
your largesse and competence, you would not doubt your skills
or your customer base who appreciate your talents.

Chris.

[PaulBx1]

John, I can understand the frustration.

On my favorite forum I kept mentioning Puppy when people complained about windows. "So easy", etc. No one even tried it. Then I wrote a basic how-to over there, how to get puppy and try it. The response was good, about 10 people converted over. Now we even have a board only about Puppy and Puppy applications!

It made me think that just saying "try puppy" is not enough. You have to give simple steps to do that. A recipe. Then some people bite.

As to me, I just got more and more irritated at Windows. Always fighting malware, big impersonal corporation, etc. There had to be a better way. Having a live-CD did it for me more than anything, because I always had my security blanket Windows to go back to if I needed to run an old application or something. Tried Knoppix first, but then looked around some more at different live CDs and Puppy was the one.

[john biles]

Hello cthisbear,
I like that link you posted. To anyone saying Linux is too hard, send them there.

I am tied but not the way you think. I've been focusing on Windows Users when I should have been focusing on Linux Users that's all.

When I said

I think I'll make TEENpup the Hardest Linux Version there is to weed out those that should really stay in the Windows world where they belong. Let's see no Menu, no Toolbar all Applications have to be started from the command line. I like it.

I was having fun, it was just a joke.

I have been a bit slack with TEENpup 2010 mini and watched a bit more TV lately. One of my favourite shows of the 70's is "CI5 The Professionals" I finally have the whole collection on DVD and I watch a couple episodes every so often. Great script writing brought to life by great actors.

As you say 30 years of Microsoft is a hard habit to break.
I never expected to change over to Linux when I first heard of it. I hate doing what everyone else does and always like doing my own thing. I like Linux because it's not the norm and because it works better for me than Windows does. I've designed a Amplifier for my Home Cinema which uses off the shelve components and is fixable like Linux is. There's a 70% finished sportscar in my garage which I built from scratch, designed and fabricated the chassis, body the whole lot. about 8 different makes with parts coming from Ford, Mazda, Lancia, Holden, Nissan etc etc. It passed the inspections and was given a VIN number, but since getting Married 9 years ago it just sits in the Garage. Will I finish it? unless I make more money most likely not. And you know I don't really care if I do as constructing it I discovered that I could do things I never thought I'd be able to do. And this is the same with Linux and TEENpup. You really don't want to know how I put TEENpup together. It not pretty and no way how most Distro's are created. It works and that's all that matters.

I see this post got a few bites and I will continue making TEENpup in the hope it's useful.

If I offended anyone just remember I still Love You and will still talk to you about Windows if you want. I just won't try and convert you to Linux unless you ask nicely. Don't take my posting to seriously.

[dejan555]

Me: Lemme show this, look how fast system is, and there are no unnecessery items in menu, with lots of spam links beside program name, and I haven't had one single virus, nor I use antivirus here, I have many programs, many of them are also used on windows, there's Firefox and OpenOffice and great music players, look this one it's called amarok!

They: Oh, lemme see what you got! Wait, where's "My computer" ?

Me: Lemme boot this on your PC, see how fast it boots! And don't need antivirus that slows down everything. I'll connect you to net in seconds! Here just get ip from your lan dhcp. You can install this and keep Windows and use this one for browsing only so you're sure you don't get viruses!

They: Um, yeah... whatever


Personally I like using puppy and I'm cool cause my box is superior then other PC's just because of this little OS that hides a lot in that 100 MB iso. When you boot it you actually realize it's powerfull in many ways!

John, I have both teenpup isos you released, I don't use it much though cause I don't need so much apps but I really like how you built it, perfect for users that need many tools, especially graphic ones, doesn't have to be for winshit users only

[37fleetwood]

Hi,
I saw this thread and hope you are only momentarily upset and it will pass and you'll keep on going.
viruses and cost were the driving factors that pushed me to Linux. this was before Linux looked very good. now with Compiz and all the available "bling" if you will, Linux is also super cool looking.
I have successfully switched several people over to Linux but I also have run into what you are talking about. most people don't want to try out of fear. they're afraid they'll have to learn really hard things, and they're afraid if they try it and don't like it they will lose what they have that's working for them now. I have two techniques I use with people I think will benefit from Linux (I think that's an important aspect to the issue as well, you have to find the people who will truly benefit from switching).
technique one is I have a fairly decent laptop running a pretty hopped up version of Ubuntu and several wm's and Compiz. lots of apps and Office installed in wine. for someone used to Xp my laptop looks amazing and runs lots faster.
the other technique is to carry a Puppy cd in with my laptop. at $.10 for a blank disc I just put it in their computer show them how to boot it and leave them playing with it. often I get a call asking how hard it would be to switch over to Linux full time and what's available. I usually start with N.O.P. as it is fast and easy to figure out. also it isn't as cluttered with apps they'll never use like the regular releases of Puppy.
funny thing I find is that often people are more intrigued with the Wm's that don't look like XP at all. I have a friend who wasn't too interested until I gave him a live cd of OpenGEU which is running e-17. don't assume it has to look and act like Windows, it just has to work reliably and make sense in the way it does things. most new users don't want to try to figure out the terminal.
finally if they switch I try to be there to help them get it installed and setup so everything works.

P.S. think of all the people who have stumbled across your TeenPup without your knowing and it has changed the way they look at their computer.

[dogone]

I'll throw my four-cents in at this point.

$0.01 The best way to help your Windows user friends and relatives is to show them Linux and let THEM decide.

$0.02 The biggest mistake a Linux supporter can make is to spend valuable time berating things Microsoft when they could be working to improve OUR product.

$0.03 It's dangerous to confuse value with acceptance. Most things accepted by most people have relatively little value.

$0.04 Linux will fare better as a project and as a solution if it minds it's own business and tends it's own house.

[puppyite]

I think I'll make TEENpup the Hardest Linux Version there is to weed out those that should really stay in the Windows world where they belong. Let's see no Menu, no Toolbar all Applications have to be started from the command line. I like it.

Are you serious? If so I don’t get it, maybe I missed something. Why punish the people who use (might use) your product by making it harder for them? It’s your stuff so do as you please but I don’t see how this accomplishes anything.

Hey Complaining Windows User's, I laughing on the inside at you!!

This may be gratifying but IMO not productive, YMMV.

As for my reasons about why I'm here I don't have time to adequately state them now. I may make my own thread about that someday if I find time. Likely it would either put people to sleep or cause a row I don’t know which.

PS: IMO anyone who would try to convert people to Linux had better have a talent for sales. As an aside I’ve tried self-employment on more than one occasion and learned that a key ingredient is salesmanship, something for which I have no talent whatsoever. Without that talent you will quickly get ground down, bitter or depressed. I say leave sales to those who are good at it and stick with what you know. You’ll live a longer happier life.

If people complain and you’ve made an honest effort to meet them half way then turn a blind eye. My two cents and change.

[john biles]

Hello puppyite, 37fleetwood and dogone,
The line about making TEENpup as hard to use as possible wasn't meant to be taken seriously and was a bit of tongue in cheek humor meant to relate to all us Linux users who have taken the time to really see how this Operating System works and the satisfaction and rewards each new discovery has brought. The users I want to spend my time and energy on converting them to Linux have the same passion and drive to learn something new as I do. I'm just sick of the people I interact with on a daily basis that complain about Windows but want to do nothing about it.

OH yes I've given them Live CD's and they've got online and surfed the net, but see Linux as a novelty, not a real Operating System. Free to them equals dodgy, How could anything for free be better than Windows which costs $$$ and the list goes on.

So don't worry TEENpup isn't going back to a terminal based OS, I will still try and make it easy to use as possible. I'll just have Linux Users in mind when trying to bring out the best OS I can make.

All I'm trying to say is look after those Linux User's who will appreciate it and don't worry about the Windows Users who won't.

Basically as soon as a Windows user decide for themselves to enter the world of Linux they become Linux users like you and me and their the PC users I want to give my time to.