Suggestions for Forum Improvement

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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bombayrockers
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Suggestions for Forum Improvement

#1 Post by bombayrockers »

I have started this thread to suggest improvements to the puppy forum

My suggestion
1. All images submitted to the forum get automatically posted on www.tinypic.com

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pakt
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#2 Post by pakt »

A direct link on the forum to the wiki. This has been suggested a number of times...

kethd
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Need to Preserve

#3 Post by kethd »

I can't agree that we should be encouraging the hosting of anything but the most temporary extraneous stuff on tinypic, until someone can tell me how long they keep things, and what algorithm they use to expire.

As the Puppy community grows, we need to be more concerned about ensuring the group preservation of our core aggregate resources: the forum and the wiki. I care very little about images; I care very much about text.

We have already been through some glitches with the wiki; we are about to lose some early wiki legacy material (history).

We need to strive to make the infrastructure "public" as much as possible. Multiple people in multiple countries should be making archive copies.

kethd
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Forum Improvement Suggestions

#4 Post by kethd »

I have made a number of Forum improvement suggestions elsewhere in the forum.
* Improve sub-titles on the forum main page
* Repeat the sub-title on the front page of each individual forum, and add more explanation there at the top, about what material does and doesn't below in that forum.
* Fix the forum clock
* Explain the Personal Messaging mailboxes
* Add such material to the Forum FAQ
* Make it easy for all users to add to the Forum FAQ, such as by linking from the FAQ to a Forum Forum or Puppy Forum Wiki page.
* Make it clear to everyone which Forum is the right place for discussions of the Forum, and Wiki, and all such misc infrastructure and meta issues.
* Host somewhere in the Forum a permanent sticky thread/poll on >How did you hear about Puppy?
* Make it possible to search the forum, searching ONLY in the subject line/title
* Every forum page have a standardized link to PupCentral, pupweb.org. And a standardized search bar for the whole known PupVerse.
* The Forum should be listed higher up on the pupweb.org main page.

However, the reality is, we simply have to be very grateful for what we have, the Forum as it is. It makes it possible for us all to easily work together! We have a small crew of volunteer administrators, who I am sure are way too busy trying to do way too much. The Forum itself is an open source tool created by volunteers at phpBB. So at this time even something as trivial as editing the Forum FAQ is beyond our capabilities. Does anyone want to volunteer to help with understanding/improving our Forum infrastructure?

See also:
http://www.murga.org/%7Epuppy/viewtopic.php?t=3871
WIKI, Forum, Meta PupVerse discussions?

http://www.murga.org/%7Epuppy/viewtopic.php?t=3873
PUPWEB.org = PuppyCentral?

http://www.murga.org/%7Epuppy/viewtopic.php?t=3976
Sentbox Savebox confusion

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aahhaaa
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#5 Post by aahhaaa »

I'd suggest that the forum categories be re-organized somewhat...

what some people consider Beginners info can be mighty puzzling to real Linux newbies- that's a big divide. some folks add extraneous problems to the HOW-TO posts- these should be kept concise, up-to-date, and clearly labled as to version; otherwise you can't use them with proper confidence.

My suggestion would be to define new subcategories related to things like Installation, PUP001, Communications, Printing, Games, Desktop Tweaking, Adding Dotpups, etc; and maybe one we don't have much of- using the apps. Wiser heads may come up with better categories. :D

As somebody new to both Linux & Puppy, I'm always finding little nuggets of handy info in the middle of threads, but they are mighty hard to find again later.

This is no complaint, I'm clam happy; but I think any changes should be made before the next burst of growth. (looked at the Frapper map lately?) :wink:

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Flash
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#6 Post by Flash »

Certainly the forum could be improved, as JohnM and time permit, but I don't see any need for a sudden and drastic redo. Incremental changes would be better, I think.

Keep in mind that administering the forum takes time I could spend playing around with Puppy :wink: or doing much-neglected chores :roll:

I looked for a way to set the clock, but without success. Some of the other things mentioned also seem beyond my control.

If you have suggestions for improving the categories, please post them to look as much like the finished product as possible. Like this for example:
Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Booting, installing, newbie

Users ( For the regulars )
Using applications, configuring, problems

HOWTO ( Solutions )
How to do things, solutions, tutorials

Bugs ( Submit bugs )
Please post any bugs you have found

...Etc...
If you can, please explain the advantages of your proposed arrangement.

...And thanks for your help. :)

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aahhaaa
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#7 Post by aahhaaa »

Hi Flash- no complaints about the job you're doing! :D

For what I mean, I'd just point out this HOWTO sticky thread:
Step by Step: Installing Puppy Linux to Your Hard Drive
http://www.murga.org/~puppy/viewtopic.php?t=1598

It starts with 1.0.4, has good info scattered thru it, but by page 3 it tails off with unanswered Qs. I would have liked to see it locked & referred to the wiki on the first page, possibly with a comment that it is superceded in later versions or not.

If there was a section called something like Puppy on Hard Drives, I think posts that are now scattered over Beginners, Regulars, HOW TO, Bugs, etc would be more focussed. I know to search, but sometimes I don't know what to search for. (Like in above thread, comments about having DOS on the HD). There are general areas - like wireless, OO2, USB, etc that maybe should develop their own sections? Or maybe just more obvious connections to the wiki and the manual project?

Another active area recently has been tweaking the desktop. Threads that start with 'download this pup' wind up with everybody posting their problems onto that thread, which I think discourages many people from trying things 'for now'. I like the SOLVED idea, that's a big improvement when hunting for a tip.

As I said, I'm not complaining, but am wondering what the forum would be like if the number of posters starts to go up geometrically; which I think is kinda likely. :D

Guest

#8 Post by Guest »

I thought a forum was for discussion, the actual instructions on how to obtain and install Puppy would be better handled by the documentation project.

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aahhaaa
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#9 Post by aahhaaa »

Try finding the documentation project from this page. From any page on this forum. The wiki directs newbies here for more info...

I don't see how my suggestion interferes with discussion; it only groups similar discussions in easily findable places. This is a basic idea in educational design.

When a discussion that starts with HOWTO install turns into a discussion of compiled code that doesn't work, or various ways to disassemble a HD, it can be intimidating to people, even to most people.
Also, not everybody is an under-the-hood enthusiast, they are first-looking at Puppy to see if it is a replacement for BillOS.

For those of us on dial-up, its taking serious time to keep up with the forum posts, and these are early days.

We have new users now. New to Linux and new to Puppy both. Every hurdle, no matter how simple, loses us some potential users. Mebbe they aren't great Linux hands, but they might be great musicians or writers or graphicists, or will become great Linux hands with a machine to learn on.

imho :wink:

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pakt
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#10 Post by pakt »

aahhaaa, I couldn't have said it better myself. Your suggestions are much needed.

(This is not a criticism of the work that has already been done by the moderators and others who have spent a lot of time and energy to write the help information on the forum.)

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willhunt
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well...............

#11 Post by willhunt »

greater docs on how to use the search page?
Usergroups
Xorg
Xorg tips and tricks

Wireless
wireless drivers and problem solving

Dialup
Dial up drivers and problem solving

Desktop
window managers, theme's ect....

Scripts, Perl, Python
abandon all hope :oops:
of course I would like to thank everyone for the great work they have done so far!!!
after all it's the forums that really make puppy great

Dex

#12 Post by Dex »

I think the forum has become bloated with Old Topics that are no longer needed. Maybe archiving everything created at a certaint date and older?

raffy
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Main site

#13 Post by raffy »

There is now opportunity for everyone to put material helpful for newbies at the main site (puppylinux.org) :D

aahhaaa is already there and can write pages directly.

kethd
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Back Up Forum???

#14 Post by kethd »

Every time I have problems accessing the Puppy Forum (which just happened -- it seemed down hard for quite a while) I am reminded how important I think it is to the Puppy community!

I hope that at least two people are backing up the whole Forum site contents independently, in a form that would allow it to be restored in a full working form on another host!

Ideally, this would be happening at least once a week...

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Flash
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#15 Post by Flash »

I backed it up on the 31st but I don't know what I'd do with the backup file if the site goes down. It's JohnMurga's website. :) I back it up in case someone vandalizes the forum but I can still log on and use the Admin stuff.

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Alucard_the_dex
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#16 Post by Alucard_the_dex »

Honestly I think we should shut down for a few days and clean up the forums? Delete old uneeded topics and users?

Also Is it possible to allow users to delete their own posts? I have seen many times "Edit: Delete me" And things of the sort by users. If we were allowed to delete out own posts this wold save time bloat and allow the Moderators to worry about more important things then deleting blank posts.
~Puppy Linux~ Where mans best friend becomes PCs best friend

kethd
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#17 Post by kethd »

I don't understand the concern with excess verbiage in the Forum... It is very easy to ignore what is not relevant to what you seek. It is a tremendously valuable Puppy database, probably the most valuable Puppy resource after the distributions themselves! (I'm not saying to retain obvious vandalism etc on purpose, but if that is a problem y'all are already dealing with it so well that I never see it.) I don't think any of us have enough excess time to spend making everything neat and tidy in a way that would be sure not to discard stuff of potential use.

I think the legacy infobase is so important that even if we could all agree on a better way to organize the Forum, and were able to implement, it might be a bad idea, because it would confuse the relation of new stuff to old stuff. So I'd say any changes should be quite incremental and compatible. Maybe the most we can do is better annotate what material belongs where, and improve the links that appear around each page (such as the deprecated goosee reference at the top of each page).

But, seriously, someone other than our generous Forum host needs to be backing up the whole thing offline from time to time and have some clear idea about how to restore to working form on another ISP should that ever be necessary... (The only way to really know a backup is usable is to use it.)

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JohnMurga
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#18 Post by JohnMurga »

Flash wrote:I backed it up on the 31st but I don't know what I'd do with the backup file if the site goes down. It's JohnMurga's website. :) I back it up in case someone vandalizes the forum but I can still log on and use the Admin stuff.
The DB backup you have is probably imcomplete as it wouldn't include the file attachment stuff ... Either way there is more than just the DB. I have backups of everything and can re-create the forum from scratch fairly quickly with these. I take backups every couple of weeks.
kethd wrote:But, seriously, someone other than our generous Forum host needs to be backing up the whole thing offline from time to time and have some clear idea about how to restore to working form on another ISP should that ever be necessary... (The only way to really know a backup is usable is to use it.)
Currently providing access to that also entails implicitly providing access to a lot of personal information which is held in the database. I have had a lot of offers of storage following the my bandwidth issues, so I may consider uploading a backup to these locations along with an encrypted dump of the database (that say only Flash, Barry and myself might have the key for).

However ... The time entailed in doing this (along with posting restore instructions) may be better employed upgrading the board (something that I have been promising to do for A LONG TIME).

Cheers
JohnM


Cheers
JohnM

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Yaverot
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Get a fresh cup of coffee, I type alot.

#19 Post by Yaverot »

Being new to puppy and these forums, I don't know what 'quirks' people use here.
{disclaimer}Also I'm not going to put my normal effort at using diplomatic language in pointing out 'problems' in this one post. If I reply I'll be back to saying the same thing - nicer. I haven't been here long enough to have any sort of grudge against anyone here. I know we have friendly people here who provide useful, intresting and fun information... even when it isn't the easiest to find.{end disclaimer}

For example, some places don't like 20 topics on X (no place likes 20 topics on X in one day). Others refer to adding to real old topics as 'necromancy' and isn't appreciated. (And these concerns depend on how far back the system keeps the old info, and how good that forum's search tools are.)
Puppy is very complicated in comparision, because I don't see where any community standards we have are posted. We have one active and two dead forums, a wiki (maybe 2 wikis), new release notes /appear/ to be posted in three different places each covering different but similar information so none feels complete.
http://www.goosee.com/puppy/ has in the upper right corner: LATEST VERSION: 1.0.6 (I think we can all agree that even if we aren't all using it yet that 1.0.7 is now the most recent).
The wiki refers to pupweb.org as puppy's homepage, but the link at the top of this screen says Puppy home page: www.goosee.com/puppy AFAIK they're effectively the same site (a redirect, or a mirror).
The forum FAQ - http://www.murga.org/~puppy/faq.php is obviously the vague FAQ that comes with the software, making multiple references to what the owner/admin has decided. The forum is up and running, obviously the admin has decided on a number of those issues, a truely excellent forum software would update those FAQ entries when the admin sets his preferences. (I know of no software that's actually that good, but...)

While I'm ranting and allowing myself to be undiplomatic, look at the front page of the wiki, doesn't it seam that that's a few too many sites to all be core to helping Puppy linux? Couldn't half of those site be moved to another page within the wiki? Still useful and important in their own way, but not cluttering the homepage. I see 4 links to download puppy, but none are a direct link. Two remain within the wiki, one dumps you on the ftp site, the other takes you to pupweb.org And this next comment reflects my English language and US centric outlook, but wouldn't the page look 90% more professional if that ugly language bar was dropped to the bottom of the page? Or eliminated and made a simple "Language Options" link near "Change Settings/Logout"? The mainpage should be small and effective; like Puppy itself, I shouldn't need to scroll to find the dinky little search box, or the link to 'just what I need' should be there (I know mind reading software i not yet available...).

Okay back to the forum...
Where is the All My New Replies link? How do I tell the forum to jump to the new message in the thread instead of making me guess where the new messages start, vs the ones I've already read (some 3 or 4 times)?

On community standards, do we prefer to crosslink back and forth between all relivant sources (making wiki pages that jump to 3-4 forum topics as apprpriate, then make the user figure out what in the thread was important) or do we consolidate, clairify, disclaim, and make authoritive and end threads with "And most of the useful information I've reposted as this, this, and that, wiki page - please check my work."

Again, I'm not trying to get anyone mad, nor be a troll, but I'm the type of person who works better with structure; and learned back in the BBS days to lurk and get a feeeling before posting and making a fool of oneself. Here I couldn't get the feeling of the puppy community in observation, nor are the standards posted where I remember seeing them. I know everyone here wants their Puppy to work, work better, be better. I know everyone has their own standard of better too.

kethd
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#20 Post by kethd »

Yaverot,
I had a lot of thoughts like yours, at first, about Puppy Forum etc. Though you seem to have made more of a study of it!

And I can't really disagree with anything you say (I'm not going to think about those kind of details too hard right now).

I just say, I have grown very comfortable with the Forum. I am sure it could be MUCH better. But I am very grateful for how well it DOES work. I find the "View your posts" tool to be extremely effective and efficient, once you get involved in posting.

The simple fact of the matter seems to be, we are all just volunteers, and the whole Puppy universe just is what it is. Criticisms like yours are invaluable -- a person only has fresh eyes once, and I can no longer see those kinds of flaws in Puppy status quo. But whoever has the power to make deep structural fixes to things is probably doing other things, and probably for good reasons. Many kinds of deep changes might have unintended consequences, and might require endless troublesome group discussion to make decisions about...

So, I say, keep making suggestions, but don't be offended if they seem to be ignored. Ultimately, the most useful thing you can do is get so involved with Puppy that you know enough and are in a position to actually make some little part of things better, as best you can (and then be faced with all the opinions of others that might have other views...)

In the meantime, do focus on finding the parts of the Puppy Universe that work the best for you -- and send back messages in bottles to clue the rest of us in on the best stuff!

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