The Mission

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ecomoney
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#21 Post by ecomoney »

Why not use 4.1.2
I plan on using many Puppies/Puplets here, it is an open testbed for all. Can your puplet pass the Puppy Linux Mission test? 8) :lol:

Today I visited the Mission, and setup two machines and the wiring. There was a conflict between the smoothwall and the existing "sonicwall" firewall, which currently supplies wireless connectivity to the Admin side as well as the windows computers.

I plan on sending the connection Logs via the very helpful guys on the Smoothwall forum, who will hopefully diagnose the problem. The admin side is planning on getting their own (separate) internet connection soon so this wont be a problem. The current support contract for the Windows XP computers there has now expired, so theyre living on a "wing and a prayer" for the time being.

Im calling again on Monday to see what else we can do.
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#22 Post by ttuuxxx »

Hey Ecomoney, you said before you'll be the tester, well I haven't seen you around the Woof Upup software section I started, Woof is at alpha7 now and well next is beta, plus those package might be going to the repo soon, So we need them to be tested, inside and out. Once they get to the repo, they usually don't get updated or deleted. So if you don't start helping, I will not answer to any of your complaints for series 5. You decide either help or keep it to yourself. No sense in waiting till everything is up and running and crying blue murder.
ttuuxxx
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=41937
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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ecomoney
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#23 Post by ecomoney »

Ive been to the Mission again today, and had fun setting them up a separate internet line.....they were running the XP cybercafe and their admin XP computers off the same wireless network...and they were all unpatched!!! :o

They now have their own dedicated line for the cybercafe side of things, and are wireless free (the passing ships radar played havoc with it). Because of the undocumented wiring in the building, I didnt have time to figure out the connecting the Smoothwall. Weve got two computers set up (with hard disks disconnected), which I have already netbooted once from the Smoothwall box though, so I know that side of things is ok. I will be heading there tommorow for a full day sorting it out. Its a weight off my mind knowing that whatever I do the Mission admin side is now safe...I wouldnt want to get on the wrong side of a "committee" :)

@ Ttuxxx

Testing is really important (it ensures QUALITY), but what with setting up the Cybercafe and trying to get some kind of release/testing procedure in place (for these purposes) Ive been very busy. All the time involved in the forum has meant that both my personal income and my "Real World" projects have fallen behind schedule. :roll: But it was worth it in terms of what now exists for the future of Puppy Linux. Having a "linux newbie" testing centre will be of benefit to Puppy's new/future users, but only if the research from it is taken into consideration by Puppys developers and Council,

For those that havnt read the recent history, last time I did any testing of the next PL (4.2), I submitted a few random bug reports/suggestions, and then ended up with my name in the release notes as a tester of the only top ten distro that couldnt open native M$ Word documents or print reliably (which is STILL ATM our offering on www.puppylinux.org). :oops: When I pointed out this might pose a problem to "Linux Newbie" target audience...well.... here is one independent Linux Bloggers take on the whole "debate" that followed, who knows a fair bit about "abuse".....

http://www.computerbob.com/wp/helping-v ... part-8.php

Im sorry I to need to bring all this up again for our fresh readers on this thread, and remind old readers of the whole saga Ttuxxx. I hope we have both learned a lot from it and it will never be repeated. I am certainly no "victim" 8)

I will make some time to take a deeper look at Woof, but I am quite busy setting up this project at the moment - which will benefit puppy more in the longer term. I have found the time to have one quick look at it, as well as shown it to just a single "linux newbie". I will report back what they had to say about it, and I will also submit a package for testing to the thread you mention.
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#24 Post by ttuuxxx »

Ya ok just remember this is the base, and what you are showing to new users, is the outcome of a not fully tested base,lol and your doing it again, man get it straight, This is what leads to what you have, what happens today or not today can effect your future, as you say"In the real world" well your real world revolves around this one, you sure as heck have demonstrated it. So if you don't want to be a tester, fine, then keep it to yourself later on, like if you submit a bug after the release, no naming names, pointing fingers etc, just report what happened and what was running when it happened, thats it. Also take what you get and the quality/bugs you get, and if you want to blame someone, take a mirror and have a look. Because I'm just going off of what you said about wanting to be the main tester and any issues that arise will be your fault for over looking them, within reason of course, like we couldn't blame you for not checking every network driver etc, but general applications yes.
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
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#25 Post by ecomoney »

Testing and feedback are important Ttuuxxx, and I will do what I can around getting the Mission Testing Centre and the HanSamBen Kids Educations project.

From what Ive seen already, the main barriers to people adopting Puppy Linux over a Windoze OS are usability issues, not specific bugs. From my three years of experience using Puppy in cybercafes and peoples homes, the current "top ten" of issues that need addressing for PL to become more a popular OS are..

1. Extremely difficult to install without in depth linux knowledge (here)
2. Lack of the most popular applications available through the installer (FF, OO, aMSN,Skype)
3. Looks "old", Grey Win98 look/console loading/Xorg config is unattractive to new users.
4. Pup_save.2fs fills up, without resizing automatically.
5. Java does not install automatically to support things like facebook chat/ebay.
6. The internet connection wizard is unintuitive, and does not open automatically when needed (i.e. opening Seamonkey with no active Connection)
7. Single click on the desktop creates unfamiliar first impression.
8. Mousewheel over desktop make application "appear" to crash (here).
9. Mime Types are incomplete + unhelpful errors if filetypes are not supported.
10. Lacks Internet connection sharing feature

Most of these issues would be relatively easy for an experienced programmer to resolve, however, because these issues to not effect developers personally there is a lack of will to resolve them....Puppy needs a "hero" to get us to No. 1 :wink:
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#26 Post by Aitch »

Hey Rob

Why not set this as your users default homepage/desktop link?

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

Solves lots of 'expectancy problems' IMHO

Aitch :)

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#27 Post by ecomoney »

@ Aitch

Yes the "Linux is Not Windows" argument, that link was very good reading Aitch thanks for posting it...the cybercafe will be having its own home page however, which I will be writing.

The link does describe Linux "in general"...Puppy is a special type of Linux...its a linux that aims and goes out of its way to be "Friendly to Linux Newbies". This does not mean making it a clone of Windows....it means just that....making it friendly to people that have not used linux before.

I often explain Linux/Open Source using the car analogy. Windows is like a car wth the bonnet welded shut....you get access to all the easy bits like the accelerator and the steering, but if it ever needs any repairs, maintenance, or "tweaking"/customizing then you are stuck.

With Windows, a lot of the reason for my grey hairs, lost years and frown lines was that it was impossible to get under the bonnet to see what was actually going on....this is one of linux's great strengths Im not saying "dispose of all the difficult bits/concepts", I am saying put them away out of sight of the "newbie" so they dont confuse them, and automate the main functions that get it "just working" straight away. 8)

2 examples...

The GRUB config/installer...the grub boot method and the screens are VERY flexible once a person knows the concepts, however...should we expect users to edit text files, manage partitions and boot with "puppy pfix-ram" just to be able to recycle an old pc that is too old to run Windows? :shock:

The answer would be to keep the utilities that are already present, but label them "advanced installer". The default "Installation Wizard" would be a much simpler (and less flexible) one that would work for them in the majority of cases...they just have a pc with one hard disk that they want to boot with either Linux/or dual boot linux/windows.

Internet Connection........ideally there would script called "check4connection" that was run when the user clicks on the icon for any internet-requiring applications (seamonkey/gaim etc), but before the applications actually launched. This would check for a connection (possibly by "pinging" google.com) and if a connection was not found would display a message such as
You dont appear to have an active internet connection, would you like to set this up now (Y/N)
Which would either continue and open the app, or launch the internet connection wizard. a tick box with "dont show this again" (seamonkey style) would provide "bug-me-not" facility.

This would prevent the user thinking that EVERYTHING has been set up automatically...currently when new users boot puppy, they open up the internet browser and get a "Page cannot be displayed" error...its up to them then to find the "Network Wizard" which will provide them with a connection....something thats not intuitive ("Network" does not mean "internet" to most users), and will only add to the myth (?) that Linux is for Linux developers with in depth computer knowledge. Saying click the "connect" button does not help..."connect what..a printer/a pendrive?).

In short, puppy needs to be designed around a users "workflow", prompting them and teaching them about linux and its concepts as they go along/without getting in their way.
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#28 Post by bones01 »

If the mission statement is the main guide, then that should help to solve the question of what are the main problems to solve.

i really enjoy using PL, particularly when my laptop will load puppy in one minute compared to the 15-20 minutes for xp. But, when xp is going, it goes pretty well and I can add other programs to it without much trouble.

I look forward to puppy being like this too. I'm using choicepup now, and it's terrific. The flexibility of adding sfs is great.

I also like puppy because it's australian.

Good luck with what you're seeking to achieve.

Bones
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#29 Post by ecomoney »

AT LAST! The cybercafe is in and working!

Image

The Missions first Linux user...who came in and started using the p.c. while I went outside for a cigarette...he didnt realise it was Linux...or knew what linux was!

Our first usability issues to be addressed...

Its only running on two of the ten P.C's at the moment (ones where the Windoze had failed), and these are only on three days of the week.

Currently it needs the manager to come down and set up xorgwizard and the internet connection every day. Hes only at the Immingham site three days, and its too complicated for the other staff to use.

I already knew that the "just works" aspect of Puppy was incomplete in these areas, and is long overdue for a re-work.

Code contributions for the following identified features would be very welcome.

Net-Setup

I know that more experienced linux users use a myriad of ways to connect to the internet, but the vast majority of people connect either via a ethernet router or an ethernet modem. For this AutoDHCP works just fine in 99% of cases. Puppy could simply do a check on loading that there is a cable plugged into eth0, and if there is, run autoDHCP to obtain a connection automatically. Currently puppy just boots, and when the browser is opened it shows a "page cannot be displayed" error....not user friendly.

Xorgwizard
The xorgwizard, while being a useful script in a small minority of cases, is simply just another "hassle" in most. It detects the correct resolution in the vast majority of cases (and even suggests it to the user). Its had a massive amount of testing and bug reports for it have all but dried up. It also looks far to much like the windows blue screen of death...full of complicated codes. I have seen many first time linux users see it, and they automatically assume when they see it something has gone wrong.

My suggestion here would be to simply set up with the detected mouse, resolution at the second lowest detected available resolution, and to pup up a dialog box asking for the preferred keyboard layout. [ctrl]+[alt]+[bkspace] would bring up a "setup menu" offering the xorgwizard text based configuration editor or dropping to the command line for the the serious linux users.

I have it on promise from the Manager that, should these issues be resolved, then we can roll out Puppy linux to the rest of the cybercafe :D ...but for the moment I can see his point its practically unusable as it is in this environment (i.e. around linux newbies!).

Many thanks to everyone who has helped in getting Puppies mission completed this far.

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#30 Post by gposil »

Rob,

Are the two pc's in the mission diskless workstations...or do they have hard disks?
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#31 Post by ecomoney »

They are both (actually 3 of them now as there was another XP failure this morning) diskless. The setup of the cybercafe as it is is described here

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=39321

if you would like some bedtime reading

Therefore there is no way of storing the xorg/network settings for the machine. This would go again both puppies mission (of "just working"), and the requirements of the Seamans mission (that non-technical staff will be able to just plug any old machine in via ethernet and it "just works").

gposil, you are a very talanted programmer, and (far more importantly to my mind) put your talents into areas where they will be of most benefit...would you take a look at the XORG and rc.init scripts to solve these problems for everyone?
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#32 Post by ecomoney »

As an update...Ive just recieved this email from Phil, who is the charity manager at the Mission. Hes given me permission to quote him for now (I will be enrolling him at some point though).
Hi Rob

Just a note to confirm where we are.
We now have three desktops working on linux via the smoothwall. They are being controlled via the laptop in the shop. We will leave the machines working over the weekend and see what happens. Issues still to be resolved.

On Saturday and Sunday there will be no one at the Centre who knows how to start up the machines if they are switched off. I will try to pop in if I can but I don't work weekends. The shortcut from switch on to the correct screen is important.
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#33 Post by gposil »

ecomoney said:
would you take a look at the XORG and rc.init scripts to solve these problems for everyone?
Yes, Rob, i'll look into it...
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#34 Post by raffy »

Good work. :D

Looks like your first Puppy Linux user in the Mission is a seaman from the Philippines, or if not, definitely an Asian.
Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? [url=http://puppylinux.info/topic/freeoffice-2012-sfs]Get the sfs (English only)[/url].

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#35 Post by ecomoney »

How have you been getting on? It would be great to re-install the entire cybercafe tomorrow...but I can only do this with the display and connection issues fixed.
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#36 Post by ecomoney »

Yes, quite a large proportion of the cafe clientelle are from Indonesia/Philippines (Obviously no "Scunny Puppy" would be suitable here :lol: ). Raffy, would you translate some signs/posters about the Mission project please?

I was about to set off today, but unfortunately no movement on the xorgwizard problem.....Im going to give them a call and put it off for now.
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#37 Post by ecomoney »

I solved the problem of the xorgwizard running all the time

Code: Select all

rm /usr/sbin/xorgwizard
:lol: 8)

What was happening was the xorgwizard was detecting that it was running on different machines (even though the hardware is identical) and trying to recreate a new /etc/X11/xorg.conf file. This is the file that stores the configuration of the video/mouse/keyboard for a specific computer. Deleting the script that recreates it simply causes the startup script that (somewhere) calls it to fail (silently) and puppy's Xwindows starts up using the one that is already there.

@gposil

Now Ive found a "workaround" for this particular case, perhaps you would add your welcome contribution to this thread when it is ready. As Ive explained on there, its something that puppy needs to do by default as a "just works" distro. I think it would also be very useful for the HanSamBenKids Educational Puppy which is aimed particularly at users with limited levels of computer skill/intolerance for code! I would be very happy to test it at the cybercafe/local schools/generally on the my stock I have for recycling.

Ive now managed to get an interim billing solution sorted for the cybercafe which runs using JAVA. As a result of this and "fixing" (in the loosest possible sense) the xorgwizard problem, Ive been allowed to transfer the rest of the cybercafe over to linux! :D

the intrim solution Ive found (while we develop one the charges laptop users too!) is CafePilot. It works fairly well from a p400/192mb laptop computer behind the main desk, connected to the smoothwall by some mains ethernet adaptor plugs and running puppy 4.2.1. The laptop was given to me because the hard drive had literally been ripped out (socket and all), so at the moment it is running from a 1gb usb pendrive and boots from a 4.2.1 CD. Ive hacked a little script in /root/Startup to launch the CafePilot server at startup. This is really useful as the people on the desk can see how many computers are in use at any one time, and how long each user has left on it....something they couldnt do before. On drawback is that at the moment all the accounts (passwords to get on) have to be created by hand, which is proving troublesome for the Phil (the Charity Manager at the cybercafe) to type in hundreds of each week....never mind think of them.

Anyway, unfortunately, I left the icewm workspaces on the setup, and today when Phil was demoing the billing system to a committee member he went into the cafe and found that two Russians had found a way of using them to bypass the billing system and were using the cybercafe for free! :oops:

Ive now got to do a remaster (its 7:45am here and Ive been up all night) and drive the 25 miles to Immingham to to deliver it for 9am when the cybercafe opens. :evil: Im also (if my sleep deprived brain allows) going to try and make it so I can update the puppy image held on the netboot server from home, so as to save my carbon footprint.
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#38 Post by ecomoney »

Ok the latest update....the cafe is now running 100% puppy linux!!!

Most of the time. Weve been suffering a lot of dropouts of network connections because of the old wiring in the place. The telephone wire that runs from the wall socket is over forty meters long (weve only just discovered where it comes into the building). This is frequently causing the main internet connection to the cybercafe to stop

Ive also tried using mains ethernet adaptors to provide the staff on the front desk with a pc which they can generate passcodes and check howm many machines are free. This didint work as we discovered that the fridges from the bar was causing electricity spikes, removing the sitecafe server from the network and making the cybercafe free to use!

Of course, many of the staff at the centre are non-too pleased with the failures, and I fear they are blaming the Linux system for the unreliability of the setup for which they are having to deal with the dissatisfied customers, even though its that which has by far caused the most "downtime" so far. Whatever, I have to get it fixed before the Puppy Linux system stands a chance.

Ive already ran a 40 meter ethernet cable from the front desk to the server room over the stairs (which involved drilling through two walls and took four hours!). This replaced the mains adaptors we were using and solves the problem with connectivity between the smoothwall and the computer on the front desk running the cafepilot server. However now we need to move the modem to the front desk (where the wall socket for its dedicated line actually is). This means I will need another ethernet cable from the server room to the desk.

I was going to put ethernet plugs on the telephone lead (which stretches from the front desk to a joiner in the server room, and then up the stairs into the office). but I am told that only four of the wires inside a standard 8 wire ethernet port are actually needed (pins 1,2,3 and 6). Im going to splice another ethernet cable into both ends of this, joining pins 4,5, 7 and 8 joined to the wires for 1,2,3 and six. This will mean I can use one ethernet wire for the two connections, and I can leave the telephone wire as a fallback should I do something wrong! :D

I will be having a practice today :D

I also have to get the webcams and the earphones working for the visit by the senior management on tuesday (5 days away) as currently the Seafarers families back home cant see and talk to them from the cybercafe while they are away. Webcams are a nightmare under linux!

Another problem they have (which Ive tried to explain about in the new MUT interface thread) is that nothing happens in Puppy linux when a Pendrive is plugged in. Its extremely irritating for new linux users though as it assumes prior linux knowledge (how to mount a pendrive, what utility to use etc). Its another classic example of hoe (some) developers think something is a "feature" but the new linux users (who Puppy is aimed at) believe it to be "broken". I also visited a cybercafe in Cornwall this weekend running some Puppy Linux computers, where they had exactly the same usability problems which prevented people using their pendrives.

Im going to need to find out some way of hacking puppy to automatically mount and pop up a rox window with the users files on it when a pendrive is inserted. It will also need to automatically add (and remove) a symlink from /root/ and preferably make a shortcut in the gtk file open dialog. This way the seafarers can send and recieve pictures of their families from abroad, and upload thier pictures to their facebook profiles and email attachments for their families to see.

Any help/advice/observations with these problems gratefully recieved.
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#39 Post by Aitch »

Rob

Re USB mounting, see last post in this thread, then go back up, if suitable, as it's a very old thread

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=2996

good luck, & well persevered!!

Aitch :)

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Meetings.....

#40 Post by ecomoney »

Today I met with the Chairmen of the Board of Directors of the Humber Merchant Seamans Welfare Association. I gave him an update as to how the Project was progressing. I explained such things as managers are interested in, such as how long the computers would last, how much he would need to pay and worry about legally in terms of liciences, along with how much longer the Cybercafe was going to be available (uptime) and how easy and cheap it would be to maintain.

I also explained to him that "deadlines" in open source projects are entirely a non-technical concept. Although we now have a billable cybercafe system, it still has issues regarding usability (pendrives/cd access), charging for laptops (we currently "hire" ethernet wires to connect to a hub and have turned wireless off!). Providing these issues are resolved, I am sure it will be adopted across the Seamans missions around the country....and word of Puppy Linux will travel the seven seas.

The meeting was held at the Hull Cybercafe (currently 100% XP, talked about with picshere). One of my tasks for today was to show them the system that was in use in Immingham. I heard that they were still experiencing a lot of downtime and securiy problems, so I decided to give them the option of booting Puppy linux on every Computer in the centre, sans billing system. 8)

I had prepared some CD's with much help from several people the previous night/that morning that I had hoped would have been able to boot in any one of the computers, that would automatically netboot any of the other computers on the network...this way effectively Linuxing the entire cybercafe in about 20 minutes.

Unfortunately these hadnt burnt correctly and would not work on any of the CD drives there! (I must stop getting my CD's from the £1 shop). Instead of that, I employed a bit of creative thinking, of how to get this done. In the accountants office there is a second computer used exclusively for internet browsing/email (the accountancy PC is Running XP, and is therefore not compatible with the Internet so it has no connection :wink: ).

1 I installed Seekers Puppy Linux installer for Windows 98/ME/2000/XP.

2 I then replaced the pup_421.sfs file that it installed with the pup_421.sfs I use for the cybercafe.

3. Once I had this booting, and it had been booted to create a pup_save.2fs file, I installed the modified tftp netboot server package I created from MagicZaurus's package (here). Into this I put a copy of the netboot initrd.gz and vmlinuz files from the Immingham cybercafe.

4. As the other PC's had an "F12 Network Service Boot" option when the HP Bios Screen came up upon poweron, the instructions to the staff consisted of "Press F12 for Puppy Linux when there is a big "HP" on the screen. It will make the computer work again."

In total it took about two hours to provide Linux to all 15 computers at the Hull centre, instead of 20 minutes. It would probably have taken two days with Windoze XP :lol:

This has given me an idea for refining the system in use at the cybercafe to make it an All-Puppy affair, which will make it a lot more flexible, and will be quicker and easier to set up. It would also mean that the Billing system would be puppy linux based, and hopefully I can make good then on this offer of £150 for its creation.

"Squid" funnily enough, sounds like the way to go...

Im really happy that the system has reached this level of completeness, it certainly would never have been possible without the goodwill and voluntary assistance and expertise of a great many people. Many thanks to everyone who has contributed.
Puppy Linux's [url=http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=296352#296352]Mission[/url]

Sorry, my server is down atm!

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