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Puppy related raves and general interest that doesn't fit anywhere else
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bugman

#21 Post by bugman »

Bruce B wrote: What to make of this change in number from 10 to
number 8?
that there is no accurate way to measure the popularity of freely given, freely acquired software

perhaps if everyone running a server were to count iso downloads . . .

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Mr Henderson
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Joined: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 10:32
Location: Teddington, UK

#22 Post by Mr Henderson »

Dogle's inital point is worth revisiting: that most Puppy forum members fade away, and this might correspond to members ceasing to use Puppy after an initial trial. While I agree with others that forum involvement is probably an inexact marker of Puppy usage, there's an underlying concern here that may be valid. A drop-off in forum involvement could be predicted as Puppy becomes better known, because Puppy will have attracted a higher proportion of people who expect their computer to work with a minimum of effort on their part, who give up on Puppy rather easily when it disappoints them. The present sitation is hard to read, but this might happen in the future. It's a worrying possibilty because it suggests that Puppy's success may be self-limiting: as the number of people trying the OS grows, so too will the proportion of dissatisfied customers. This would damage Puppy's reputation and lead to a drop in interest.

The only suggestion I can make is that Puppy's limitations should be presented to potential users before they even download an ISO. For instance, looking through the forum discussions on wireless cards (an area where I've had a bit of a struggle) it seems that many can only be got working properly under Ndiswrapper. It would be better to explain this clearly, and reassuringly, from the outset. A clear and up-to-date list of problem-free cards would be helpful too. No doubt this would put off some potential users, but it would produce the maximum proportion of satisfied users.

Bruce B

#23 Post by Bruce B »

Mr Henderson wrote:Dogle's inital point is worth
revisiting: that most Puppy forum members fade away,
and this might correspond to members ceasing to use
Puppy after an initial trial.

{text cut for brevity}

Are we proselytisers?


If so, then more questions, such as: Why? How? When?
Mr Henderson wrote:The only suggestion I can make is
that Puppy's limitations should be presented to potential
users before they even download an ISO. For instance,
looking through the forum discussions on wireless cards
(an area where I've had a bit of a struggle) it seems that
many can only be got working properly under Ndiswrapper.
It would be better to explain this clearly, and reassuringly,
from the outset. A clear and up-to-date list of
problem-free cards would be helpful too. No doubt this
would put off some potential users, but it would produce
the maximum proportion of satisfied users.
Why can't people look at the box? If it specifically
mentions supported Windows versions, but doesn't say
Linux, (or Mac) and one wants to use it for Linux, (or an
unsupported Windows version, or ... );

Square pegs in round holes? What possesses people to do
such things?

Certainly, as you suggest, an up to date list of supported
hardware would be nice!

As an alternative, one can visit the prospective vendor
website to see if they dare mention the 'Linux' word on
their website. Maybe they don't even want our business!

Another way, if the purchase is already made, is take
various Linux distributions for a test drive. See which one
works for you, if any.

Full circle to the subject of proselyting, if Puppy
won't work on your hardware, and another distro works, I
think:

Drop the forum a note and state the facts, and say
good-bye.

I don't think I'd let any distribution be my hard luck, not if
another distribution pulled through and gave me the
hardware support I need and want.

( but then in all candor, I'm not having problems, I think
some of it has to do with careful shopping and not stuffing
round pegs in square holes )

~

Bruce B

#24 Post by Bruce B »

bugman wrote: perhaps if everyone running a server were to count iso
downloads . . .
So a friend of mine, innocently looking over my shoulder,
noticed a directory called puppy_parts.

So he starts mumbling, "puppy parts, puppy parts!, puppy
parts? . . . "

Nuff already, "Look, I save puppy parts. Well, that's how
it is, now you know."

~

Opps! I almost forgot the moral to the story.

Here it is, just because I downloaded 3.01 doesn't mean
I'm still using it.

~

n01fu
Posts: 9
Joined: Fri 10 Apr 2009, 21:42

#25 Post by n01fu »

i'd like to second a lot of what popeye said in his post. I tried and used puppy versions 2, 3 and now 4. I drifted away from v 2 and 3 less because of problems with puppy, but more because i just dont have a good understanding of how linux works and got frustrated trying to run some windows programs i need under wine. I still dont have all of them working under wine, but have taken the dual boot approach and run most of my day to day stuff (web, email, chat) under puppy, and a couple of other programs under the windows side (gpredict, mixw, winaprs).

so for me it's just that my level of understanding of how linux works is much less than my understanding of windows, especially as related to certain programs.

on the other hand, this forum is absolutely wonderful, have found a lot of answers here that helped me stay with puppy, and puppy just runs a lot faster than windows.

I also think that there are a number of puppy users you will absolutley never hear from. Two in particular are my oldest son and duaghter, who both have a dual boot setup with 4.2 & XP home on their notebooks, and who use puppy most of the time. again most of it is for web based stuff and they dont understand linux as well as they understand xph, but that may change over time too.

so maybe the big issue is that people arent just as used to linux as winxp.

idk, just a thought...

bugman

#26 Post by bugman »

@bruce, @mr henderson, @bruce [again]

right, right, right

you are both right, but swimming upstream against a mighty flow

the dustbin of history awaits you

:lol:

Bruce B

#27 Post by Bruce B »

bugman wrote: you are both right, but swimming upstream against a mighty flow
How could I be more off base ! ?

To imagine: I thought it was like a slowly rising tide which
never recedes.

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rarsa
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#28 Post by rarsa »

My 1.3 cents (woow, I lost 0.7 cents with the crisis!)

There are many ways to read forum numbers, Of course there may be opportunities to improve the forum but I don't think that the goal should be to attract "market share" but to help the ones that jump in.


Don't try to read too much on the raw numbers as we can get totally contradictory conclusions from them:

e.g.

- Puppy works better every time, that's why people don't come and ask questions

- Puppy works worst every time that's why people are not interested in Puppy any more

- The forum used to be friendlier, not people are fighting and that pushes new users away

- The people helping are getting better so users find what they want faster so they don't need to come so frequently

- The people helping are getting worst so users do not find what they want and they stop coming.

In my particular case, I was a prolific poster to the forum for a couple of years.

But then I got busy in other endeavours and found that other people were responding the questions faster and better than me.

I am still a Puppy user, I am still a Puppy advocate but now I rarely need to come to the forum to search for answers and I have limited time to post responses.

What I can tell you is that I visit many forums searching for other answers and I've always marveled at how active and helpful this particular forum is.
[url]http://rarsa.blogspot.com[/url] Covering my eclectic thoughts
[url]http://www.kwlug.org/blog/48[/url] Covering my Linux How-to

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Béèm
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#29 Post by Béèm »

n01fu wrote:so maybe the big issue is that people arent just as used to linux as winxp.

idk, just a thought...
Well bear in mind there are people fleeing Vista right now. Returning to XP or eventually trying Linux.
Vista has some nasty things which need a learning curve as well.

Wonder what Windows 7 will be in that aspect.
Time savers:
Find packages in a snap and install using Puppy Package Manager (Menu).
[url=http://puppylinux.org/wikka/HomePage]Consult Wikka[/url]
Use peppyy's [url=http://wellminded.com/puppy/pupsearch.html]puppysearch[/url]

bugman

#30 Post by bugman »

Bruce B wrote:
bugman wrote: you are both right, but swimming upstream against a mighty flow
How could I be more off base ! ?

To imagine: I thought it was like a slowly rising tide which
never recedes.
and i was imagining "a shaft of gold when all around is dark"

:wink:

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Mr Henderson
Posts: 39
Joined: Fri 17 Apr 2009, 10:32
Location: Teddington, UK

#31 Post by Mr Henderson »

Bruce B wrote:
Are we proselytisers?

If so, then more questions, such as: Why? How? When?
I did not say or imply anything about proselytising. However, you may want to look at the forum thread subtitled 'Promote Puppy'.
Square pegs in round holes? What possesses people to do
such things?

Certainly, as you suggest, an up to date list of supported
hardware would be nice!
It is difficult to respond to this part of the post as it is not entirely clear whether you agree or disagree with me. We are in agreement that it would be good if information was more accessible, yet you are scornful of people who have problems because the information is not easy to find. Perhaps you are saying that the main problem with Puppy is that it gets used by the incorrect type of person. A defensible position, but if true, I had better go back to Windows.

(Incidentally, I'm not sure that this thread should be in the Beginner's Help section, as it is not offering help to beginners. Puppy Power? Misc?)

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dr_willis
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#32 Post by dr_willis »

Just a few barks about what i 'see' hanging on irc a bit. (Ok.. so i LIVE on irc, I admit it)

New users in the channel seem to be turned off of using puppy more for the following reasons.

#1 - lack of full multiuser support (they want each faimly member to have their own account just like other disrtos do)

#2 - Confusion in the package manager listings, redundant packages, having to search the forums and irc channels for links to what they consider must have packages.

#3 - Scared by the running as root (related to #1)

#4 - there is no #4 (at least None i can think of)

#5 - i would say lack of good docs.. but I notice that the wiki pages are improveing. Someone has been doing some editing and updates! (Good job!) of course this assumes the new users actually bother to read any docs. (most dont seem to even know they exist) So there is no #5 :)

Well this is my viewpoint from the trenches. Keep up the good work.

gerry
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Location: England

#33 Post by gerry »

Magazine reviews always say that:-
Puppy is tiny, and very fast, and amazingly complete.
But actually, being tiny does mean that Puppy may not do everything that a seven-times bigger distro does. So then the newbie comes onto the forums- and WOW! there seems to be no distinction between users and developers. And there are so many Puppies! Which is the real one? Which is the bug-free stable one? It's terrifying. With most distros, development takes place behind the scenes, and now and again the developers descend from the mountain and release a stable, fully tested, bug-free distro for the users to use. If that's the environment that the newbie feels most comfortable in, s/he will go there. Those that are happy to take part in the process, or to request a feature and see it get incorporated for them, or even just stand on the touchline and keep an eye out for what they want, stay.

Gerry

tuxr99
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Joined: Sun 11 May 2008, 19:40

#34 Post by tuxr99 »

Béèm wrote:It's not because someone don't post that he doesn't uses the product. If he is satisfied and has no problems.
I agree. I myself have been using puppy for a while, but really had no need to post here much, as everything works great. I do most of my "chatting" elsewhere. But I will make a point of coming here more often.

bugman

#35 Post by bugman »

tuxr99 wrote:But I will make a point of coming here more often.
please do

that avatar, it's freaking hyponotic

[i will be calling my wife 'dave' before long]

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Max Uglee
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#36 Post by Max Uglee »

Sorry I am responding to a post two pages back, I just noticed this thread.
popeye wrote: I have tried Puppy of couple of times in the past but stopped because it was too difficult to get my hardware working (as a newbie I can't always follow the the explanations in the forum or the explanations just don't work as described). Puppy 4.2 is the first version that recognizes all my laptop hardware. Having said this I tried to install it on my new family computer and the wireless card was not recognized. Once I swapped out the new card for the old one all was fine but many newbies would be afraid to do this.
Yea I used Puppy 2.(don't remember) awhile ago and had a very similar experience with a wired PCMCIA ethernet card. No problem in 4.2, Puppy is reallly growing up. 4.2 is almost everything I need and runs much faster than other ditros/oses. The whole hardware/driver thing is very intimidating for new users. I am glad a lot of that is being worked out.
Also not having had any formal computer training, using the command line is somewhat challenging. Many of the explanations in the forum make assumptions / expectations that the reader is familiar with Linux commands. For most of us this is not true. Instead what us newbies do is type in exactly the code we find on the forum pages and if this doesn't work we more than likely give up and go back to whatever system we were using before.
True that, after a few years of using Linux I am beginning to understand terminal commands a little (I've learned a few things the past couple weeks trying to repair my Ubuntu install after upgrading to 9.04 :x ). I think it would be worth breaking the 100MB limit to make things a little more graphical. From what I understand the Geany Vala thing can create really small but nice GUI tools, right?
I was lucky and it worked but if it hadn't I most likely would have gone back to Ubuntu.
I have two XP partitions, an Ubuntu partition and a Frugal install of Boxpup 413. One of the xp partitions is for gaming and playing around, the other one I don't even have the network enabled on because i use it strictly as a DAW. I use Ubuntu or Puppy for everything else. I have been trying to use Puppy more and more but my girlfriend (a Mac person without a working Mac) prefers ubuntu. When i get home from work the comp is always booted into Ubuntu. Sorry I'm rambling but my point is she likes it because of the interface and i like it because of the package manager. These are two places I think that Puppy could improve.
I am having a hard time adjusting to ROX and haven't been able to get Thunar working for me yet..
I don't like ROX either. Try boxpup 413 if you havent already the default file manager is Thunar. Since it came out I haven't used any other puplets.

Puppy will win in the end. It is ahead of its time.

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mowestusa
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#37 Post by mowestusa »

dr_willis wrote: New users in the channel seem to be turned off of using puppy more for the following reasons.

#1 - lack of full multiuser support (they want each faimly member to have their own account just like other disrtos do)
#2 - Confusion in the package manager listings, redundant packages, having to search the forums and irc channels for links to what they consider must have packages.
#3 - Scared by the running as root (related to #1)
#4 - there is no #4 (at least None i can think of)
#5 - i would say lack of good docs.. but I notice that the wiki pages are improveing. Someone has been doing some editing and updates! (Good job!) of course this assumes the new users actually bother to read any docs. (most dont seem to even know they exist) So there is no #5 :)
This was an excellent summary of why some new Puppy users might not stick around. I would agree with this list a new Puppy user myself. I believe I have to help solve some of these issues though. I could do some more reading about 1+3 in how to secure Puppy, and why Puppy has chosen to run as root. 2 is a big one for me. Could be fixed with one repo for each major release number so 4 uses 4 packages. If packages from 2+3 work then they could simply be moved into the 4 repo instead of remaining in separate repos. Community packages that work could be in a community repo like Arch. 5 is true of most open source and free software projects, but I will admit that the manual is really a great read for a beginner with Puppy. Also I have found some excellent wiki articles. I would love to see some of the forum how tos turned into wiki articles too. Documentation is an area most of us could lend a hand as well by editing the wiki.

dogle
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Joined: Thu 11 Oct 2007, 12:41

#38 Post by dogle »

I would love to see some of the forum how tos turned into wiki articles too. Documentation is an area most of us could lend a hand as well by editing the wiki.
Dead right, mowestusa. I reckon that could really make a big difference.

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[deXter]
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#39 Post by [deXter] »

My main complaint about puppy is that the default/official build comes with way too many icons on the desktop. That just doesn't have any professionalism and it can even be argued that it slows down startup time and increases memory usage by a bit.

On the other hand, I like how NOP/boxpup is turning out, and ideally the official puppy should be somewhat like it - I mean, professional. Hey, take a look at CDLinux, for example. It's not that big, but atleast it has a decent interface. Interface might seem like low on the priority of things but the fact is it's the looks that catches people's attention first.

And PWidgets only makes it worse.

The other major complaint is that there is no proper repository like in other distros. PETget is a joke. It doesn't even scale to different screen resolutions. If any of you recall, one of the major reasons Ubuntu found success was because it was so easy to find, download, install and manage apps. App management in puppy needs a major overhaul.

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markofkane
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#40 Post by markofkane »

My 2 cents:

1. When a question is asked, it is assumed that the person posing the question knows the inner workings of Puppy (the answers are too confusing sometimes)

2. If a person cannot figure it out, a lot of times the person is treated like a dummy.

3. I am no Puppy pro in any sense of the word. I know Windows, but Puppy is still a mystery to me. I like Puppy a lot. But when I ask how to do something, I want step by step instructions, or I may not know what the heck I am doing.

4. I left Puppy for awhile after discovering it in 2005, because I did not want to take the time to learn it. I left it again after finding my favorite programs would not work in it (Like UltraHal, Haptek Player, etc)

5. A section for novices would be nice with tricks you can do with Puppy. Wow users.

I want to continue to play around with Puppy and want to make another donation soon. 8)

Just my 2 cents.

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