Sweetness and Light

[Bruce B]

Ecomoney,

Over the course of time, I've noticed users complaining
that an earlier version of Puppy supported all their
hardware, then a newer release didn't support some aspect
of it. Maybe a NIC, soundcard, video adapter, or whatever.

After a sufficient quantitity of reports where people have
gone back and forth between versions and found only the
previous version works. I conclude a dropping of hardware
support in areas as versions.

If this is true, I have problems with these expressed goals.

(i) it will just work, no hassles

(ii) your revision, it will just work, no hassles, objective
is a work-in-progress!

I would rather say to the user, "Stay with the version that
worked. If support was dropped, don't even expect it to be
put back in." (There's probably nothing to look forward to
for your hardware, dropped is not likely to be included
again).

Bruce

[Bruce B]

Ecomoney,

Question for you, is Puppy friendly for Linux newbies?

If not, how so?

Unnecessary reference here if you're interested. Link

Bruce

[ecomoney]

Greetings to you Bruce

For reference here is puppy's mission statement (concise version)

* Puppy will easily install to USB, Zip or hard drive media
* Booting from CD, Puppy will load totally into RAM so that the CD drive is then free for other purposes
* Puppy will be extremely friendly for Linux newbies
* Puppy will boot up and run extraordinarily fast
* Puppy will have all the applications needed for daily use
* Puppy will just work, no hassles
* Puppy will breathe new life into old PCs

The and for clarification the "it will just work, no hassles, objective
is a work-in-progress! " are Barrys Words (not my revision) which I have seen him tag onto the end of the mission statement. You can see this via this google search.. I certainly wouldnt wish to change/add anything about Puppy's goals, and I think that it is very important they are remembered, especially as Barry is retiring. Perhaps this will be an opportunity to look at Puppy's existing mission with fresh eyes.

Older Hardware
If we can avoid the redmundesque "Im sorry your hardware is too old, you must upgrade" then we must. We already do a retro version of puppy with a previous kernel. It seems that this retro kernel is not retro enough. As well as the speed decreases that have been reported in newer Puppies (which need the updated kernel for newer hardware) then there is a strong case for an officially maintained "very retro" Puppy.

Puppy Phoenix which has the older 2.6.18.1 kernel, will hopefully fill this gap, and make much older computer usable again with puppy.

There is a lot of software/drivers already compiled for this kernel, and many of the pseries and other usability applications that have been developed recently can be "backported" to it. When designing it, I will also be employing a more "linux/newb centric" approach, and will need the feedback from yourself and Beem/others that help out regularly in the user support sections.

Im looking forward with having more constructive discussion with you BruceB

[Bruce B]

Ecomoney

Over the course of time, I've noticed users complaining
that an earlier version of Puppy supported all their
hardware, then a newer release didn't support some
aspect of it. Maybe a NIC, soundcard, video adapter, or whatever.

{relevant text cut}

I didn't mean this as anything to do with 'retro'. Neither
was I referencing anything to do with 'retro' which may
have less hardware support.

I'm talking about Puppy version releases dropping
hardware support. I don't know keywords to search for to
show a few cases.

So, will you accept it at face value?

===============

As far as this . . .

(i) it will just work, no hassles

(ii) your revision, it will just work, no hassles, objective
is a work-in-progress!

I attributed (ii) to you, because the only place I've seen it
worded that way was in your postings. Now I understand
where the attributions belong.

Bruce

[DaveS]

I hope you dont mind me joining in here, but I have been through a number of Puppy versions now, and have experienced some of the hardware issues you discuss. Two points: first, mistakes get made. So OK, mistakes get recognised and fixed, always going to happen. Secondly, but much more serious: somewhere along the line a self imposed limit of 100 MB has crept in. OK. Hardware constantly evolving and profiles being added, same with software. So must the iso size, or stuff HAS to be left out. Is the 100 MB thing now harming this distro? I think so .............

[Burn_IT]

I suspect the 100Mb limit is a target to aim for NOT a strict limit.

It is there to encourage efficiency and thought about which packages to include;
partly so as to NOT include non-essential parts of packages for space reasons, but also that smaller is quicker.

[DaveS]

I suspect the 100Mb limit is a target to aim for NOT a strict limit.

It is there to encourage efficiency and thought about which packages to include;
partly so as to NOT include non-essential parts of packages for space reasons, but also that smaller is quicker.

Understood. But that only works for as long as full functionality can be maintained. As more hardware support gets included, the iso must grow some.

[Bruce B]

You guys should certainly feel welcome to join in. No reason Ecomoney and myself couldn't discuss things privately, if we wanted. It's pubic forum.

[Béèm]

Well the subtitle Ecomoney v Bruce B was kinda deterring.

Well I agree with DaveS that full functionality should be maintained through out puppy versions.

But how far goes a version?
Is puppy 2 a continuation of puppy 1?
Is puppy 3 a continuation of puppy 2 which is a continuation of puppy 1?

Is Dingo still puppy?

Is Deepthought still puppy?

Is Woof still puppy?

In my opinion, yes.
So I expect previous hw is still supported and new hw added.
I suppose this is done through newer kernel's, but compiling them in such a way previous hw is still in there.
I expect the window manager to be still JWM and no other one added like ICEWM.
This doesn't exclude that other WM's can be added as an option.

Two illustrations of my hw issues.

FireWire (1394)
Having such an interface on my laptop and my desktop, I wanted to take benefit of IP over 1394. Support started to come, I think around 2.x and Nathan tried to help to get it working. I think in 3.x I got support for it and Dougal helped to get the interface device recognized in the network wizard.
It wasn't an issue in 4.x but in 5.x I found that Woof alpha 6 didn't support the 1394 anymore. In Woof alpha 8 support is back, but the network wizard doesn't recognize automatically the device.
These are things which make me feel uneasy. But as Woof is in the alpha phase still, it could be an excuse, but still.

Medion MD8818 sata HDD's
Not seen by puppy 2 and 3 and somewhere in the 4.x the first HDD was recognized, but not the second one. When Woof (upup) came with kernel 2.6.29.rc7 I saw to my great pleasure, the second HDD was seen also. I stayed in that euphoria until the change to kernel 2.6.29.2 (Woof upup alpha 7) No joy to boot Woof, probably because the HDD's aren't seen anymore.
So again I feel uneasy. The puppy I had isn't my puppy anymore.

Now I wonder to what extend do I have a solid base to work with Linux (puppy) with my equipment?

[Bruce B]

Well the subtitle Ecomoney v Bruce B was kinda deterring.

Yeah, Béèm, if it just pops up out of nowhere. In this case
there is an earlier beginning. Then before that an earlier
beginning.

I think it is all friendly and in good spirit, however it looks.

[ttuuxxx]

I expect the window manager to be still JWM and no other one added like ICEWM.

Hi Beem you should try to understand something, Them Icewm packages I have made have been downloaded over 1000 times, It one of the most installed applications that puppy has that and browsers,.
The package I made for 4.2 was about the size of 1 theme durring 2.15 era, That package had 4 themes,icewm,the shutdown menu, parcellight clipboard manager, blinky, freememory applet,absvolume. Heck when you compared it to plain JWM+clock+blinky+freememory applet it was about 250kb larger. The package was around 600kb way smaller than Gnumeric, which In all the years I've been using Linux, never did I ever use Gnumeric, most people don't, a heck of a lot more people install IceWm and other WM than use gnumeric, But every release we have Gnumeric. Icewm and JW gave the users a unique look at linux and how you can make things easy, at one time installing Icewm was a pain, now I have it down to restartX, or in 4.2 one click.lol Just try not to be so hard on IceWm, its a great alternative to JWM and people really like it. Look at the IcewmVsJWM theme exchange for example
Jwm total views --->93996
Icewm total views --->86819
They are almost the same and JWM has been default in puppy since the start. A heck of a of people like it. And being such a small package why not offer it ?

You mentioned about puppy versions, well puppy hasn't had a real version since series 2,
Series 3 was based on Slackware binary base.
Series 4 was based on T2 packages
Series 5 is based on numerous other distro's
Series 1+2 were hand crafted by Barry, That was a purebred Puppy days, Thats when Barry used to say Puppy was built from scratch,
But puppy is still unique, in it own way,
Lets look at Dpup
Dpup has 668 Debian packages and 165 puppy packages, The puppy part is like custom scripts/gui/xorg/seamonkey/kernel/ etc. It still has the puppy feel when you boot it, etc. So It might not be a purebred, but it a heck of nice mix breed.

Oh ya I read on the forum you had sata issues way bay with earlier puppies did you ever figure it out? I'm currently updating one, and would like to be able to boot with my sata dvdrw, works fine with my ide dvdrw but not the sata.

have a good day
ttuuxxx

[Bruce B]

like it. Look at the IcewmVsJWM theme exchange for example
Jwm total views --->93996
Icewm total views --->86819

ttuuxxx,

In 2.17.1 I made a couple themes for myself.

In 4.00 JWM changed as well as the default theme. I
thought it was so good, I didn't bother to improve on or
look for more themes.

Bruce

215CE that was really pretty!

[Bruce B]

Older Hardware
If we can avoid the redmundesque "Im sorry your
hardware is too old, you must upgrade" then we must. We
already do a retro version of puppy with a previous kernel.
It seems that this retro kernel is not retro enough. As
well as the speed decreases that have been reported in
newer Puppies (which need the updated kernel for newer
hardware) then there is a strong case for an officially
maintained "very retro" Puppy.

I don't know if I can accommodate you on the
redmundesque, the word has only been used three times
by one person on the entire Internet. As of this post it
will have been used by two people. I get the honor of
being number two thanks to you.

Not that I care about the frequency of the usage, but I
don't know what redmundesque means.

---------------------

Changing subject

I think a lot of people are using Puppy as an easy way to
see what Linux is about.

For example, installing it on old boxes and laptops. Also
the use of the USB stick is common, maybe on newer
machines. I think in large measure because users don't
want to interfere with Windows.

-----------------

As far as kernel versions being the factor, I don't
know for a certainty. I'm tempted to think the
compile options are the bigger factor.

I also wonder: If Barry wants to distribute with two
kernels, why not put them on the same CD?

Pick your kernel at boot time - I've seen this with other
Linux. If distribution bandwidth and storage space is a big
factor, there seems an advantage to doing it that
way. How many people double download, wonder?

Summarizing:

What are the opinions?

Is it more kernel version or compile options
(trying to keep it small and fast)?

[moogsydodong]

what is happening in puppy???

[Béèm]

@ttuuxxx,

I understand your technical explication as a developer about puppy 2, 3, 4 etc.. but a lot of people don't. The only see puppy and don't bother what is under the hood.

I know ICEWM is your baby and I did use the EZpup it was called then which gave ICEWM as an extra. Well this is the approach I personaly prefer, but I won't take it to a fight to the death with you.

As for the sata support, kernel 2.6.29.rc7 was the first one to support the HDD's. 2.6.29.1 as Barry compiled it, was doing ok as well. The HDD's are on a VIA technology controller and putting the controller in RAID or AHCI is not an option as Windows don't boot anymore then.

If your sata device is on this type of controller you are in the same situation as me. My CD devices are on another IDE controller so I can use them.

Now he has compiled a 2.6.29.2 and I can't even boot from it. (upup alpha 7 and

As far as I know, dpup is at 014, which didn't support my second HDD as it's kernel is lower then 2.6.29.x

So if there is a dpup higher then 014, I am eager to test it.

Good day to you too.

[Burn_IT]

I don't know what redmundesque means.

Bit slow there Bruce
What comes from Redmond???? Now do you see through it???

Having the two versions on one CD sounds an excellent idea to me.

I might build one - the saves is the bit that might need some thought.... tick tick..

[Béèm]

There is also redmond-esque

[ecomoney]

what is happening in puppy???

Me and Bruce are having a friendly fireside chat about how to improve puppy the most, for the most number of people. Please feel free to join in, put any differences aside, grab a beer, and help us figure out how we can be even nicer to others than we already are.

My Apologies Bruce, I hadnt realised the word "redmundesque" was so rare. I refer of course to that place in America (Redmund) where resides the headquarters of Microsoft Incorporated, who (in their boundless generosity) leave us literally Millions of older computers for us to install Puppy on! Although these computers are obviously quite capable of running "all the application required for everyday use", Microsoft (along with their friends at Intel corp), seem to purposefully drop support for older computer hardware and the operating systems they were designed to work with (such as XP, 2000, 98).

Heres some reading about just what a nice bunch of folks they are

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/blog/toxic ... ws20071204
http://www.computerworlduk.com/communit ... &blogid=14

Something I found quite heart-warming in reading the forum, was the number of people still using older versions of puppy linux.

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=38961
Best Puppy Version Poll

I feel these two things are directly related....people use older versions of puppy (with older kernels) because they get better support for their older hardware with them.

Of course our puppy developers tend to be "computer enthusiasts", and like "car enthusiasts" tend to have the newest and fastest of everything. In their kindhearted determination to bring us the newest features, perhaps they have mistakenly forgotten that Puppies aim is to breathe life into old hardware (of the type that Micro$oft/Intel generously leave us many poor people who cant afford to pay them for a new computer to play with).

From my own experience, I find that people who want to try linux, quite often try it for the first time on older computers, basically because they dont want to risk making any mistakes with their brand new top-of the range supercomputer from Walmart, and avoid what would be an expensive repair bill if they get their GRUB settings wrong or they make a little mistake in their repartitioning.

No this is where I become a little vague...and need the help and expertise of some of our more technically knowledgeable members....perhaps some that have recently joined our "friendly fireside chat". Please be kind and put me right if Im a little inaccurate about these things of which Ive got very little practical experience.

I understand that the Linux kernel is what provides support for the hardware. Older kernels support older hardware, while newer kernels support newer hardware. I also understand its possible (within certain limits) to add support to older kernel for newer hardware by applying "patches", or adding "modules" that have been "compiled" against that kernel. I believe that most patches/modules are already available to add support for newer hardware to older kernels, rather than the other way around (patches to add support for older hardware to newer kernels). I believe that older kernels are generally faster on this old equipment too.

So then, how I figure it, the best strategy for us to make more computers available to as many people as possible (of the older type generously donated to us by Micro$oft/intels lovely business practices)..would be...

To use an OLDER kernel, with as many patches and addons for newer hardware as possible.

Im sure the nice folks in Redmund would be very pleased at us being able to do what we do even better, even if that would lose them some of their sales of windows liciences because people wouldnt want to buy new computers with a Windows licence fee attached, when they can use puppy on an old machine from out of their dustbin.

[Béèm]

Me and Bruce are having

I don't know if time has changed this, but I learned to use Bruce and me.

And btw, the town is called Redmond, not Redmund.

[DaveS]

Me and Bruce are having

I don't know if time has changed this, but I learned to use Bruce and me.

And btw, the town is called Redmond, not Redmund.

OK, if we are going to be pedantic, correct usage is actually 'Bruce and I'