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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
HanSamBen-a derivative of Edupup with Gcompris 8.4- Alpha V2
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smdelfin

Joined: 10 May 2009
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Sun 10 May 2009, 23:20    Post_subject:  

I have successfully installed HanSamBen on 2 preschool PCs with Celeron/128Mb Ram/3Gb harddisk here in the Philippines.
Thank you very much!
Waiting for the next release ...
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sidders

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 470
Location: Bolton, uk

PostPosted: Mon 11 May 2009, 08:01    Post_subject:  

Great i hope it goes down well with the kids.


Working on the next release now.

With regards to the network modules, i am assuming that the Kernel can be recompiles without that module. I have done a little reading on the subject of compiling kernels, i will give it a go.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Mon 11 May 2009, 11:50    Post_subject:  

@smdelfin, we are glad you like it Smile Would you tell us a little more about how they work, how fast they are, how long they take to start please, it will help us. Any other suggestions would be really helpful. Send us some pictures too if you like!

@ Sidders, Thanks for the update, how do you feel about the project going international? I am working on some way of tracking the number of downloads of a certain iso from my website, so when the project has its first release, I can give you some more "numbers" Wink

Im just thinking, if were going totally down the "liveCD only" route, then were not going to need the ntfs/fat drivers at all. If we go down the route of only having an edu_save.2fs on the computers hard disk, we are going to need the ntfs/fat drivers, in order to write this to the computers hard disk.

Both ways have their merits, but if removing the ntfs/fat modules completely is the easiest and safest, and we can say "definitely wont alter anything on your windoze computer", then I think thats the way to go, even if it means the kids cant save their scores/tuxpaint images. In this case, are "users" are parents as well as children.

My apologies for not uploading the Curriculum dvd as yet. I will hunt it down and upload overnight tonight.

Keep up the good work your side Sidders Very Happy

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sullysat


Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 364
Location: San Antonio, TX

PostPosted: Mon 11 May 2009, 12:31    Post_subject:  

ecomoney wrote:

Im just thinking, if were going totally down the "liveCD only" route, then were not going to need the ntfs/fat drivers at all. If we go down the route of only having an edu_save.2fs on the computers hard disk, we are going to need the ntfs/fat drivers, in order to write this to the computers hard disk.

Both ways have their merits, but if removing the ntfs/fat modules completely is the easiest and safest, and we can say "definitely wont alter anything on your windoze computer", then I think thats the way to go, even if it means the kids cant save their scores/tuxpaint images. In this case, are "users" are parents as well as children.


FYI, I'm working on a few machines that will be standalone systems running HanSamBen. I'm still searching for a preschool nearby that will appreciate them enough to be a test bed for us.

I'm not sure how much RAM I'm going to get in these, so I don't know about install options yet. Most of the Puppy installs I do are full installs in order to minimize issues with pupsaves and RAM, but for this project I'm thinking that running from CD with one of the small harddrives I have laying around for save files may be the best use of resources.

Of course, going this route may require the drivers you're talking about here Rob.

My opinion would be that limiting boot/install options might be counterproductive to the growth of a user base. However, I'm thinking that, given the proposed audience for this puplet, LiveCD w/ savefile on HD is probably the best default option.

ecomoney wrote:

My apologies for not uploading the Curriculum dvd as yet. I will hunt it down and upload overnight tonight.


I'd like to see this too, please. I'm thinking that there will be good information here for documentation. It's going to be important to address the international flavor of where this is being used, I think.

Sully
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Mon 11 May 2009, 14:03    Post_subject:  

Just for clarification....

Removing the FAT/NTFS drivers would not mean that HanSamBen would not be installable as the main OS on a single computer, either full or frugally installed with GRUB on its own partition (this would use the linux ext2/ext3 drivers). You could use it for recycling the computers for schools, and parents could have a LiveCD to use on their Windows computers at home.

It would be a good idea to remove the disk tools (Grub install, Gparted etc) from the menu's though! Laughing Wink

So the issue is, to allow a savefile on a windows (home) computer? I know this would be desirable to users yes, however for "marketing" purposes (i.e. to make this educational software accessible to the most children) if we are able to say "wont effect your windows installation in any way whatsoever" then more parents would be inclined to try it. Windows XP users, from their many bitter experiences, are very loathe to try *anything* new on a computer. Most I have seen, if something comes up they dont understand with words like "write", "update", "change", they just click "no" automatically for fear of an expensive repair bill. Smile

Ok....so possible ways around this problem of "psychology".

Some "thinking aloud".....

Instead of removing the NTFS/FAT drivers entirely, just remove all the automount/file utilities from the menus, and the routines to ask if a save file is created at shutdown (/etc/rc.shutdown). HSB will then boot everytime in RAM, and shutdown without making any change. Home users/triallers happy! Very Happy

have a "hidden" command (perhaps like a key combination "cheat" on a game) documented in the manual..(which the little ones cant read!). This will bring up a menu that will allow Parents/carers/recyclers to create an edu_save.2fs file on an ntfs/fat partion that will be picked up at boot time. This way kids could save their work, once their parents are confident in Linux's remarkable ability not to break their computer! Experienced home users happy Very Happy

For recyclers such as yourself Sullysat, and people such as smdelfin, who only have access to lower spec computers, then I would suggest a special boot parameter "pfix=recycle". This option would call a special install routine in the "init" script found inside initrd.gz. that would basically recycle the computer into a dedicated kids computer for use in either a home or a school. Recyclers/School IT people Happy Very Happy

Ideas for the modified "init" script
This routine would NOT load the pup_412 into ram (as happens with a livecd boot), therefore would potentially make HSB installable on computers with as little as 32mb of RAM or less....this would maximise access to the educational facilities in HSB, especially to those from less well-off countries. Current puppy has a "double negative" lockout...people cant boot puppy to install puppy to run in less than 64mb unless they have 64mb of RAM already!

This "recycle" subroutine within init would script would:-

1. Confirm what was about to happen (the computer being wiped and all existing data lost!), and give the user chance to abort.

2. Format the hard drive of the computer with a ext2 partition, and a 200mb swap.

3. Install a preconfigured GRUB bootloader, with correct menu.lst, vmlinuz and initrd.gz

4. extract the pup_412.sfs from the cd to the new ext2 partition.

The "full only" install method would not only allow very old computers to be recycled easily with an absolute minimum of training by educationalists, but would also mean that computers that have been dedicated WHOLLY to running HSB would have an extremely quick boot time before the "pretties" appeared....kids have little patience for such things!

If the additional subroutine in the "init" script were GPL, then with the will, theoreticall it *could* be added to mainstream puppy linux. PL will only boot to allow the current iLaughing nstaller to work in 64mb of RAM AFAIK. This would make Mainstream Puppy available EASILY to people that only had computers with 32mb/24mb of RAM....they would only need to know to start with the Boot Parameter "pfix=recycle". This would save a lot more computer waste, and enable access to I.T. to the worlds poorest with only 32mb of RAM without a lot of training.

@ Sidders

You are probably reading the above and thinking "Shocked" I understand you are working on this for free ATM and your time for it is limited. Im very grateful for the work you have put in already.

At this early stage of the project, I believe it is probably best for you to continue the way you are with the removal of the NTFS/FAT drivers entirely . This allows us to be confident that non of our "testers" will suffer "broken windows" (or me personally for that matter Laughing ), and can supply more of the feedback we currently need on the applications.

@ Sullysat, would you be happy for Sidders to continue down the route of removing the NTFS/FAT drivers entirely for the time being, for the sake of simplicity, on the promise to add the above as a "feature" in a later version to extend HSB's reach to more people/schools? Perhaps by then we will be joined by more programmers which will ease the load on Sidders. Have you heard of the 80/20 rule?

Just some ideas/loud thinking.....Feedback/expertise/technical knowledge appreciated. Smile

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sullysat


Joined: 16 Oct 2007
Posts: 364
Location: San Antonio, TX

PostPosted: Mon 11 May 2009, 14:21    Post_subject:  

ecomoney wrote:
Just for clarification....
@ Sullysat, would you be happy for Sidders to continue down the route of removing the NTFS/FAT drivers entirely for the time being, for the sake of simplicity, on the promise to add the above as a "feature" in a later version to extend HSB's reach to more people/schools? Perhaps by then we will be joined by more programmers which will ease the load on Sidders. Have you heard of the 80/20 rule?


I was just concerned that I'd need those drivers to install. If that's not the case, I'm good.

I like the other ideas and where this is going. Thanks to Sidders, ecomoney, and everybody else involved in this. Its SO great to see someone dedicated to a good educational product for kids.

Thanks guys,
Sully

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Mon 11 May 2009, 14:49    Post_subject:  

Embarassed Sorry, yes...my creative side can run away with me sometimes

I had better find that disk and start it uploading

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puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3213
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Tue 12 May 2009, 00:23    Post_subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
Well, I must admit, having messed with Gcompriz on Puppy B4, with limited success, I was sceptical..
I`m, not anymore.... Shocked
I managed to get it about 1/2 functional, or so I thought... Laughing
Had I realized it was this extensive, perhaps I might have tried harder..
I hope you can achieve this kind of success with Childsplay... Very Happy
I still have many pets / plugins I gathered in my attempts with it, if you need anything........
Bravo....Very cute, very slick, very well thought out....
These "special" Pups are what make Puppy "Special"...LOL...
And could make it a household name yet....
My 2 1/2 yr old son says "tank eww"..LOL
Maybe after some time on this, he`ll pronounce that better...
...Jay....

This goes on the "best of" DVD.... Very Happy Very Happy
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sidders

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 470
Location: Bolton, uk

PostPosted: Tue 12 May 2009, 02:45    Post_subject:  

Gcompris - A couple more of the apps are working now with the addition of gst-plugin-good and a library file. I've had a quick go at Ktuberling, which looks great for the kids but that is a KDE app, I've left it for now until i work out the KDE side of it. It may grow too big to include. Going to have a chat with some people about whether the game can be replicated in Python. Going to go back to have another go at Childsplay. I ve posted wjat i have so far on another thread.

I have found the NTFS driver, maybe the way to go is to customise the kernel. Another step up for me, but i have the kernel source. Before i do that i will get V2 up with everything (except browser). Then experiment with the kernel.
I have an 18 MO jumping on me, id better go.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Tue 12 May 2009, 19:06    Post_subject:  

Good work sidders.

The KDE libs are notoriously large/slow, and would need to be loaded before the game is...needing they would take system resources even when they wernt being used. dont get me wrong, Ktuberling is a very popular game (Ive used it at a Breakfast club not far from here on Edubuntu), but the overhead would be large....meaning that people with older/slower computers would not be able access ANY of the other educational games in HSB at all!

May I suggest the update "little and often" option Sidders. If we have a "safe" LiveCD, then we will be in a better position to know with more certainty what was needed in the release after from the feedback we get.

Another thing I have thought of....A "sweet spot" in terms of loading into RAM would be to keep it to about 210mb. There are a large number of 256mb RAM computers around. This would mean that all application could be loaded into RAM for speed, with a little working space left over. We must take into account that if we dont have NTFS drivers, then HSB will be unable to use a swap file (pupswap.swp) on the ntfs/fat drives also. Therefore if as many games as possible can be made to run "full screen" then this will prevent the little ones opening several apps at once and using up the available RAM.

Childsplay looks a great app, but many of the "learning objectives", and indeed the games themselves, are covered by gcompris.

Ive also got a confession....Ive misplaced the DVD from the preschool! Embarassed Im sure it will appear (I have a pretty chaotic lifestyle), but in the meantime I will get another copy on my phone from the Pre-School admin computer tomorrow morning when I drop Caleb off.

P.S. The local "press" have already caught wind of the project (through one of the "mums testing team" I have recruited! Rolling Eyes ). We have a journalist from here eagerly waiting to do a review....whenever you are ready Sidders Very Happy

http://www.living-in-lincolnshire.co.uk

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sidders

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 470
Location: Bolton, uk

PostPosted: Wed 13 May 2009, 03:27    Post_subject:  

I havn't taken anything out yet. I will look at the network module in the kernel at a later date.

Childsplay has been left hanging on another thread,somone else might come up with an answer.

I'll put v2 together over the next couple of nights and get it up. Taking the kids to the Lakes under canvas this weekend.

I'll post the GST-good and the libs if anyone wants to stick it in V1.

The printing hasnt been tested, i just scanned the forum for the best options, to try and make it so as many printers are PnP (if you like).

Is Abiword worth keeping in?. I'll put it in anyway and see what people think or whether it gets used at all.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Wed 13 May 2009, 06:14    Post_subject:  

Hi Sidders,

Abiword, yes (kids Ive noticed like something they can just write on, especially if you are including tuxtype)...the older ones would need a word processor they could learn on IMHO... but you could take a gNumeric which I think would save a bit of space.

I think the network modules are just files at the location I specified in my earlier post. It should just be a matter of deleting them, plus the /usr/sbin/net-setup.sh file (the network wizard). In fact you could remove the "network" and "internet" menus entirely from the start menu...plus all of the programs they point to (this should alleviate parental concerns also). Hint, you could try running qemu/virtualbox to create a "virtual machine" for programming HSB, otherwise your going to need to reboot constantly to get on the net to do your research. Qemu/Virtualbox would also allow you to alter the amount of RAM to test various machine specs. I know this is how Antonio (slapshot) does it with edupup.

Regards the childsplay problem, you could try it with the updated JWM that patriot has just released. It gives nice rounded corners too!

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=39162

Patriot would probably help you with that side of things if you PM'ed him, xservers are his thing.

Ive just been to the preschool and got the files about the UK curriculum, they are uploading as we speak to http://www.ecomoney.eu/hsb/curriculum, and should be finished in about 20 minutes from the time of this post.

Many thanks again for your work sidders...you deserve a well earned holiday, the Lake District is a beautiful place and Im sure will refresh you.

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sidders

Joined: 23 Jul 2008
Posts: 470
Location: Bolton, uk

PostPosted: Wed 13 May 2009, 17:31    Post_subject:  

Got a new game installed called stickers, used Petbgone to strip out network menus, pppoe, wvdial etc and removed any browser.

Just about to make the ISO and i thought CUPS!!!. On the hunt for a bare minimum browser to serve CUPS.

With whats been added and whats been taken away, it now stands at 205mb. Until i get a browser that is.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Wed 13 May 2009, 18:50    Post_subject:  

On ecopup (which Ive been tweaking for the last two years) I use the Dillo browser, that operates cups very well. You have to set in the config file not to cache, that way it updates when you add new printers etc. I think its very small.

Very much looking forward to the new version Sidders Smile

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sidders

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PostPosted: Thu 14 May 2009, 16:06    Post_subject:  

CUPS

Going to play about with Dillo and Netsurf. Away this weekend, back to the project on Sunday night. I will have a V2 next week.

Dilo from pup3 repo 261k
Netsurf from pup4 repo 344k

I think Netsurf is in Cups_shell. Whether it does the Bareview without Seamonkey i dont yet know. If it doesnt i'll go the Dillo route (dependency pending). The smaller the better, and Rob knows Dillo.

Pete i havnt solved the Red arrow cursor in Gcompris. I've used 8.4.6 for this one, but the result was the same. Had to start with the mouse game. I think it will be smaller anyway as i stripped out the test folder in Python (no adverse effects).

I'm seeing the programmer friend this weekend, i will ply him with dhim drink and get him or someone he knows to tickle a few games, but that
wont delay V2, more of a long term quality thing.

I went to the nursery today, still didnt get much detailed feedback, they just said the kids loved it. Which bits, what areas need improving?.

Going to resort to waterboarding!!! Mad
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