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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects » Next Puppy Development
Suggestions for the section "Next Puppy Development"
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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Sun 26 Apr 2009, 21:02    Post subject:  Suggestions for the section "Next Puppy Development"
Subject description: What does it need?
 

I figured it would be good to have a specific area here for bugs, so that the generic debates and planning can have this main area out here. NOTE: This Bugs section is ONLY for official Puppies that are still under development. If you have bugs to report for an existing Puppy, do it in the Bugs section of the main forum, not this one.

Bug reports for in-development Puppies (on Alpha, Beta, and RC versions) should be labeled with the version and status of the ISO they refer to, and have a descriptive title. For example: "4.2a4: The zigs zag and the zags zig if you hold the Pause key"

When solved, a [SOLVED] should be added, just like out in the rest of the forum. This way we can keep track of what needs to be fixed still.



I was going to add a "suggestions" area, but realized that we already have on in the main part of the forum. It's easy to get carried away when you start making sections.

Another thing I've already thought about (and dismissed): What if we make individual subsections in here for each version of Puppy? When a Puppy is released, a new section could be made for the next Puppy, and the old section could be moved into another subsection here titled "Old Releases" so that they don't pile up and get in our way.

I don't think that would be a good idea. More hassle than it's worth.



Similarly though, I do think that if we start working on more than one breed of Puppy (4.x, 5.x, etc) they should each have their own areas. Those would be needed so rarely and used so heavily that segregating them would make sense. Since we're currently only working on one, I'm not going to bother yet. When we do, I can easily create a 4.x and 5.x section, and move the existing stuff into 4.x. (Actually, literally moving this stuff would be a major pain, so what I'd do is rename this section itself into 4.x, create a new "Next Puppy Development" section, and move the 4.x section into that. Same result in the end, but much less work.)



Are there any other suggestions about what I can do to make this area more useful? Any other needed sub-sections (a dedicated "Patches and Bug Fixes" section, for example)? Should I consider bumping this area up to "Full Section" status, as opposed to a subsection of Puppy Projects?

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Last edited by Pizzasgood on Sun 03 May 2009, 22:46; edited 1 time in total
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
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Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Mon 27 Apr 2009, 12:30    Post subject:  

A suggestion, in a proper and obvious place define what a "bug" is or is not.

There is a difference between personal preference in the way a program works and a "bug". A bug report thread needs to be limited to actual bug reports.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Mon 27 Apr 2009, 15:26    Post subject:  

A bug is anything that gets in the way of the productivity of the "linux newb", as well as a linux developer.

Good idea about the thread-per-bug approach for testing...credit where it is due Ttuxxx.

Patches IMHO would be best given on a default home page (along with a google search function), or at least a link link, embedded in the browser on the iso itself (like the puppy forum link is currently). This would save new users having to hunt for them while a new release with them included is prepared.

Thanks for starting this thread PG.

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Mon 27 Apr 2009, 16:39    Post subject:  

Quote:
Patches IMHO would be best given on a default home page (along with a google search function), or at least a link link, embedded in the browser on the iso itself (like the puppy forum link is currently). This would save new users having to hunt for them while a new release with them included is prepared.
Yes, but it wouldn't hurt to post them here. Especially if the coordinator wants to delegate handling the website.


James C wrote:
A suggestion, in a proper and obvious place define what a "bug" is or is not.

There is a difference between personal preference in the way a program works and a "bug". A bug report thread needs to be limited to actual bug reports.
WhoDo is the one in charge (I just facilitate), and he can now make sticky threads and announcement threads here, so if he wants to post a specific definition, he's got the power to do so. (And the next person will have the power to change the definition if needed). Also, if he needs me to change the description (or even name) on the Bugs section, he has only to say the word.


To me, a bug is an Error, not something that's simply more complex or ugly than one would like.

Maybe we also need a separate section for "Usability Issues (but not Bugs)"?

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bugman


Joined: 20 Dec 2005
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PostPosted: Mon 27 Apr 2009, 18:38    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:
A bug is anything that gets in the way of the productivity of the "linux newb", as well as a linux developer.


no, that would be a "feature", or lack thereof

by your definition gentoo is ALL bugs

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 01:20    Post subject:  

By definition Gentoo is only half as popular as puppy

A features and a benefits are different things

http://www.clip2go.com/english-german/wl_features+vs+benefits+in+sales_1022_0.htm

May I suggest a sticky in the bugs section, explaining its purpose, and the terminology to be used ([BUG]/[FIXED]/[NOTBUG]) we could use those icons (smiley/sad/confused emoticons) as a quick list of outstanding issues.

Perhaps even a section where ONLY a co-ordinator can post/vent off a little. I understand theres a lot of pressure comes with the job.

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bugman


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PostPosted: Tue 28 Apr 2009, 06:03    Post subject:  

ecomoney wrote:
By definition Gentoo is only half as popular as puppy


is this a popularity contest?

Rolling Eyes

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Michalis

Joined: 08 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sun 03 May 2009, 14:05    Post subject:
Subject description: Bug tracking system?
 

How about puppy getting a bug tracking system as every distro and program?

I think that a bug tracking system is mandatory in order to have a good tracking of the bugs especially in the case of puppy that is an operating system with many different functions and programs inside. Nowadays in order somebody to see if somebody has already reported the bug has to go around the forum and search the messages, and at the end can't be 100% sure that he hasn't missed it somewhere inside all the posts. Such a system will help also in order to see also who has volunteer to find the solution so anybody could contact him by pm's.

Bug reporting in a forum is only a huge mess and definitely time consuming practice.
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amigo

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PostPosted: Sun 03 May 2009, 14:44    Post subject:  

"A bug is anything that gets in the way of the productivity of the "linux newb", as well as a linux developer."
Let's call a spade a spade, shall we? This definition of a program 'bug' is not to be found anywhere else. What you describe micht be called a shortcoming. It simply is no good to use words out of all context. A 'bug' is when a program fails to do what is expected -according to the code. It has nothing to do with some third-party's likes or dislikes, or even with the eventual plans of the developer. It is measured by the intent of a piece of code -if the code does not do what it is intended to do, then it is a bug.

Bugs which are found in open-source programs which are written by third parties are not really a bug in the distro. They are a problem for the distro, but not really the responsibility of the distro. If someone 'from the distro' comes up with a fix, this is gravy for the distro. If they then send the fix upstream to the original author or maintainer, then they are gravy for the open-source community at large, if the fixes are incorporated or made available to everyone.

Desirable features, or undesirable behaviours are not bugs. In many cases only the author of the code can really define wheteher something is a bug or not. One must understand the intended behaviour of the code in order to know whether something is a bug. Almost never would a 'newbie' be qualified to define whether something is a bug, and even less to define the severity of the bug.

ecomoney, don't think I'm down on you. You actually are in a really good position to receive and pass along feedback from a very important group of users. I agree that most developers lose sight of the novice end-users -especially over time. We forget how much we have learned along the way. I for one, would always be interested in the results obtained from your 'testbed'. But, that does not mean that you should raise the 'bug' flag every time you perceive an unmet need or desire on the part of your users. By all means, advocate for inclusion or modification where you think it would benefit your users or any other group of users. But, please don't pollute bug threads with these issues. Sorting out bugs is hard and lengthy enough and developers should not be pressured much to add features, and not at all if they are busy sorting out bugs in existing code.

The forum is not at all an adequate medium for reporting or working out fixes for bugs, just as a forum is not an adequate way to dustribute extra software. The forum is a good place for a newbie to find out if some behaviour might constitute a bug and, thus, whether or not is should be reported to the developer. But tracking and resolving bugs should not be done over the forum.
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nic2109

Joined: 01 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 03 May 2009, 17:09    Post subject:
Subject description: What is a "bug"?
 

ecomoney wrote:
A bug is anything that gets in the way of the productivity of the "linux newb"....

People with long, long, long memories may well recall that "bugs" were insects that interfered with the wiring (often by eating it!) in the very earliest computers. As these were made with string and bicycle spokes as well as little ferrite cores whose polarity was set by induction and the state of which determined whether it represented a '0' or a '1', when a wire had been chewed through by a bug the program malfunctioned. Hence a program with bugs in it. Pretty quickly the term "bug" came to be used for any error in the program.

So; a "bug" is a program that doesn't perform to spec. Whether that spec is about calculations or update rules or whatever is irrelevant since a spec is a spec.

But; who determines what is (and what is not) newbie-friendly? As there is no way of accurately (or even approximately) specifying such a concept, there is no way that a pass or fail can be determined. Therefore there is no such thing as a "failure" in newbie-friendliness, and hence no such thing as a bug in it.

Sloppy thinking Ecomoney!

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ecomoney


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PostPosted: Sun 03 May 2009, 18:53    Post subject:  

[quote=]But; who determines what is (and what is not) newbie-friendly? As there is no way of accurately (or even approximately) specifying such a concept, there is no way that a pass or fail can be determined. Therefore there is no such thing as a "failure" in newbie-friendliness, and hence no such thing as a bug in it. [/quote]

Winston Churchill? wrote:
"I disagree with your opinion, but will defend to the death your right to speak it"


This is something that I intend to prove!

Quote:
Sloppy thinking Ecomoney!


Yes....definitely, I am forgetting my training Embarassed

The change in mouse wheel desktop switching behaviour (which would make Puppy Linux better meet its objectives) is known, in Software Engineering circles, as a

CHANGE REQUEST

The change in behaviour, and whether or not its needed, can be discussed, and either rejected or approved...based upon whether it would make the program (puppy Linux in this case) better able to meet its function (be "friendly to Linux Newbies")

Then of course the other one is a

FEATURE REQUEST

For example, a feature request would be to add an ability to turn desktop switching back on (probably made by a developer!). In this case, if the default were "off", the ability to turn it back on would be a "feature", and would not impact the programs "friendly to newbs" purpose.....in fact it would benefit them too, as it would mean developers were more likely to program for Puppy, an open source OS!.

There is always a risk, when adding new "features", to add more bugs. For example, here is the "feature request" for .docx support in Abiword. Introducing this feature "rolled the dice" and introduced a bug. Apparently most of this trouble was caused by a guy called "davids45" I vote for him being kicked off the forum immediately!!! Laughing

@Amigo, thanks for your input.

Quote:
[Bugs in packages] are a problem for the distro, but not really the responsibility of the distro[[/url]

In this case, the program (The Puppy Distro - a collection of packages) failed to meet its "Just Works" aim in its Mission...that is our "Aim", but no not our "responsibility"....or is it?

[quote="www.opensource.org (first thing on the top of the page)]Open source is a development method for software that harnesses the power of distributed peer review and transparency of process. The promise of open source is better quality, higher reliability, more flexibility, lower cost, and an end to predatory vendor lock-in.


Well....Ive been "peer reviewed' quite a bit recently. With the above objective in mind, I thank the Puppy Linux Community for taking the time to identify and report my bugs. A bugfixed "Ecomoney 0.2" has now been released.

And then I was the one who discovered that the Puppy Linux forum needs a "feature requests" and "change requests" section to better meet its overall Mission.......

www.opensource.org wrote:
....an end to predatory vendor lock-in.

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: Sun 03 May 2009, 19:21    Post subject:  

@PizzasGood - yes thinks seem to have calmed down (as they inevitably always must), and were getting some work done.

nic2109 wrote:
But; who determines what is (and what is not) newbie-friendly? As there is no way of accurately (or even approximately) specifying such a concept, there is no way that a pass or fail can be determined. Therefore there is no such thing as a "failure" in newbie-friendliness, and hence no such thing as a bug in it.


Winston Churchill? wrote:
"I disagree with your opinion, but will defend to the death your right to speak it"


Quote:
Sloppy thinking Ecomoney!


Yes....definitely, I am forgetting my training Embarassed

The change in mouse wheel desktop switching behavior (which would make Puppy Linux better meet its objectives) is known, in Software Engineering circles, as a

CHANGE REQUEST

The change in behavior, and whether or not its needed, can be discussed, and either rejected or approved...based upon whether it would make the program (puppy Linux in this case) better able to meet its function (be "friendly to Linux Newbies")

Then of course the other one is a

FEATURE REQUEST

For example, a feature request would be to add an ability to turn desktop switching back on (probably made by a developer!). In this case, if the default were "off", the ability to turn it back on would be a "feature", and would not impact the programs "friendly to newbs" purpose.....in fact it would benefit them too, as it would mean developers were more likely to program for Puppy, an open source OS!.

There is always a risk, when adding new "features", to add more bugs. For example, here is the "feature request" for .docx support in Abiword. Introducing this feature "rolled the dice" and introduced a bug. Apparently most of this trouble was caused by a guy called "davids45" (apologies Ttuxxx/WhoDo).

@Amigo, thanks for your input.

Quote:
{Bugs in packages} are a problem for the distro, but not really the responsibility of the distro[/url]

In this case, the program (The Puppy Distro - a collection of packages) failed to meet its "Just Works" aim in its Mission...that is our "Aim", but no not our "responsibility"....or is it?

[quote="www.opensource.org (first paragraph, top of the page)]Open source is a development method for software that harnesses the power of distributed peer review and transparency of process. The promise of open source is better quality, higher reliability, more flexibility, lower cost, and an end to predatory vendor lock-in.


Well....Ive been "peer reviewed' quite a bit recently. With the above objective in mind, I thank the Puppy Linux Community for taking the time to identify and report my bugs. A bugfixed "Ecomoney 0.2" has now been released.

Puppy Linux forum then needs a "feature requests" and "change requests" section to better meet its overall Mission.......

www.opensource.org wrote:
....an end to predatory vendor lock-in.


Which will certainly make a Devs life a lot easier too?

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canbyte


Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 266
Location: Hamilton, Canada

PostPosted: Sun 03 May 2009, 20:12    Post subject:  

PG, please change the title -- i thought you were asking for suggestions regarding next puppy development, to which i would like to say loudly: STOP! Stop inventing stuff for puppy. There's already enough stuff that doesn't work properly and needs fixing. I see in 4.2 that stuff is changed for change's sake without making it better, sometimes worse (ie. less readable). All that effort and i've pretty well given up on it in favor of keeping what's left of 412 going. Thats not progress!

This conversation is about bugs and more importantly, about forum organization.

Quote:
I was going to add a "suggestions" area, but realized that we already have on in the main part of the forum. It's easy to get carried away when you start making sections.


Aaaah, so you are a go-to guy for making sections? Please, please, please..... make more sections to make the forums more efficient. But not with general words such as suggestions, bugs, patches, howto, beginners/regulars (who cares?) etc. but with specific words such as Abiword, Geany, flashdrive (under hardware), devx, Printer families (under printer). There should be one section for every category of hardware and every software package included with puppy in order to address the frustration expressed by Amigo and Michalis, which i share. Unless topics are agglomerated, its too frustrating/haphazard to find stuff using the search tool.

Besides, whats the difference between describing a problem you are having, reporting a bug, submitting a patch howto or solution? Lets not split hairs. Users just need to get fixed and their problems are usually very specific to software or hardware - and need all of the above.

Let forum form follow technical function, not commentary type. Modify the entire forum organization but don't worry about the past stuff, just let new sections be filled up going forward. Build it and they will come. Eventually, there will be enough stuff under each section (ie Abiword) to make a wiki entry based on that material. I've offered to work on the wiki with this in mind but got temporarily waylaid by other necessaries & waiting for instructions. Hopefully, soon .......

Cheers

PS. I picked on Abiword because its got some screwed up fonts & can't accept certain pastings (basics) which made me wonder what 4.2 had accomplished besides grinding all those nice 412 mountains down into boring beach sand! Less is more?!
Other issues at the moment -
* 4.2 upgrade broke my printing to OKI printer. Live 4.2 also wont print.
* can't backup pup_save file to CD except thru Windows
* can't burn to cd from 4.2 or 412
* geany, mtpaint won't print at all, Seamonkey prints (in 412) but page break is lousy.
* Seamonkey mail broken/ stalls (storage capacity reached?)
Puppy not ready for prime time! Which hopefully explains my opening sentiments.

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Sun 03 May 2009, 23:37    Post subject:  

Okay, how's this title?

One reason I don't want to do too many categories is that it becomes more annoying to look through them all. It's much nicer to be able to look in the Bugs section and see all the bugs at once, as opposed to having to look through a Seamonkey section and an Abiword section and a Gnumeric section and a.....

Sure, right now Abiword seems to have a number of issues. That doesn't mean that that is the case all the time. In a release or two, you might never hear about Abiword. We'll have some other problem app. Then that one would need it's own section. Until a couple releases after that...

Quote:
There should be one section for every category of hardware and every software package included with puppy in order to address the frustration expressed by Amigo and Michalis, which i share. Unless topics are agglomerated, its too frustrating/haphazard to find stuff using the search tool.
There are a total of 349 software packages included in Puppy 4.2, not counting the stuff in devx_420.sfs...


More categories could (theoretically) make it easier to look up bugs in specific things, but that isn't the point - we need to make it easy for people to see what needs to be fixed, not to look up what were the bugs in such and such program at some past date (yes that's important too, but not as important as getting them fixed in the first place). And too many categories starts to cause issues with "which one might it be filed under?" anyway.

If we want to get that picky about categorization of bugs, it would be better to just not use the forum and get a real bug tracker, as many have recommended. I think that in the long run, we do need to do that. But for now I think we're better off with the forum. We need to take things one step at a time. Puppy has always been a pretty unorganized environment. If it's going to continue into greatness and last a long time, as a community run operation, then It's going to have to become more organized. But you can't take people and projects that have been chaos for over five years and start trying to organize them overnight. Everybody just rejects it and continues as they always have. So, we just have to take it one step at a time and gradually ease into the more organized approach. It looks like we're doing the council deal first - good. That will help provide a less volatile foundation that the rest can grow from. When that's working, we'll need to eventually adopt a bug tracker, and a more formalized package management system, and more consistently available localizations, etc. Not necessarily in that order or anything.

It will happen. It won't happen until it's ready to happen, but it will.


Meanwhile, everybody is comfortable with the forum, so the "Bugs" sections serve as our bug trackers. It's not perfect, but it gets the job done for now.

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Mon 04 May 2009, 00:41    Post subject:  

PizzasGood wrote:
]Sure, right now Abiword seems to have a number of issues. That doesn't mean that that is the case all the time. In a release or two, you might never hear about Abiword. We'll have some other problem app.


...and thats precisely what needs to avoid happening again in a "just works" distro Cool

This is the next puppy development section right? The purpose of this section is to outline things that need fixing/changing/adding to get Puppy Linux to meet its aims/achieve its mission.

Having a section for every package that makes a Distro would produce a *lot* of sections, thats for threads in other sections. This are the ones that are going to be fixed in the next release.

Which fixs/changes/additions should we make to subsequent versions of puppy? The ones that our users need fixing/changing/adding most urgently. How do we find that out?

STATISTICS Shocked

Either that or ask Beem which questions he has to re-answer the most Rolling Eyes

For example, heres a way you might find out what puppy really needs

Type into google "puppy linux" [SPACE]

And you get the attached.

This indicates that the Puppy Universal Installer needs a LOT of work in terms of making it more usable (something my experience would suggest too)

Ye PG, the forum is the best we have for now, and arranged correctly, I could easily I think become quite an effective (if still chaotic) way of organising the "data" on our problem reports, and organising it into "information" on what needs fixing/changing/adding most urgently. There are many was a phpbb forum can be modded.changed to allow this.

i.e. If a feature/fix/addition was needed urgently, it would be possible to prove it was needed. In this case I trust the council would be willing to listen....and assign a developer to work on it, Rolling Eyes
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