Project Coordinator Threatened ....

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Should WhoDo Step Aside as Coodinator

Poll ended at Fri 24 Apr 2009, 11:14

Yes
10
13%
No
65
87%
 
Total votes: 75

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tronkel
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#21 Post by tronkel »

Puppy 4.2 managed to reach no 2 on Distrowatch for a while, no mean feat - coming in just under Ubuntu as the top dog. The target audience must therefore have been highly satisfied with it - despite the odd glitch here and there.

So why then would WhoDo have to resign? I voted no on that one for sure.

Bug-fixing a distro takes time and patience. WhoDo as well as other developers often work under time constraints - that's just life.

A bug-fixed 4.2 will appear just as soon as people find the time to fix it. It took Debian 2 years to fix Lenny (and it's not even right yet, but it's good enough to deploy).

Kudos to ttuuxxx as well for supporting Puppy 4.2 I reckon he did a great job there. Hope he gets sorted out with the base for Puppy 5.

Ecomoney? It's clear that he is trying to propel 4.2 in such a direction that it meets his needs for the CyberCafe etc.

If the current 4.2 appears not to fulfill his requirements at the moment in this respect, he has plenty of other choices that might be considered - naming no names here!

Could it be though, that in reality Puppy is in fact the best candidate for the job here - bugs and all? Sure looks like it. As you can also observe, Puppy is heading straight for the no 1 spot. 4.2 was a step towards this.

Ban Ecomoney from the forum? - no.
Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer

big_bass
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#22 Post by big_bass »

Hey WhoDo

nobody voted for you to be the coordinator
BarryK asked if you would and if I remember correctly

*which I do have a good memory*
you said yes

end of discussion
.........................................................................................................

Do I agree with Barryk's request and your answer?

yes

end of my opinion

-----------------------------------------------------
echomoney

you made a business decision to use puppy whatever version
to please your clients?

Do you offer full localization language support?
Do you offer free tech support?
Do you offer multi users?

if you haven't thought this through yet
the demands you have now will only
grow


maybe whoever selected you to run your business
should reconsider their choice


big_bass

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SirDuncan
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#23 Post by SirDuncan »

Trobin wrote:There is no doubt that the Abiword fix should be fixed. However I don't see any reason to toss out the coordinator over one bug.

Perhaps a note could be put on the web page explaining how to fix the bug, until a corrected version can be uploaded.
Good idea. Done. I don't know how to put it on the main page, but it is on the download page at puppylinux.org. If there was an actual fix posted (instead of just downgrading), someone let me know and I'll change it.
techtype wrote:ecomoney should become the second known person to be banned along with his duplicate ids and the ip range of his urban zone if possible.
That is entirely unnecessary. Ecomoney is a valuable member of the community with a lot of end-user experience It would be unwise to excommunicate him over a minor difference of opinion and some misunderstandings. If we started doing that, most of us would end up out of the community eventually.

[quote="technosaurus"We should try to get a Google summer of code project for our students out there (Pizzasgood, MU? others...).[/quote]
Yes! I would totally sign up for that. The problem is that we would need someone to set it up.
Patriot wrote:2. Is ecomoney attempting a coup d'etat on puppyland against our current "Benevolent Dictator" ?
Our Benevolent Dictator was and still is Barry, regardless of his dislike for that position. If he says something, that's almost assuredly the way the community will move. Warren current position seems to me to be more that of Steward. As for the coup d'etat, I do not believe that was really Ecomoney's intent (if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me). Although I can see how it might look that way.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I haven't been really following the Abiword problem. I stopped using Abiword after it butchered my physics technical report last quarter (well, technically I guess Word 2007 butchered it when my TA went to grade it). OOo is a lot slower to load, but it seems more compatible with Word. Before anyone asks why I didn't turn in a PDF, they needed to run an anti-plagiarism program on it that needed it in .doc or .docx format.

Anyway, as for whether Warren should step down, I say no. He did a pretty darn good job for the community's first release. I think that most of the friction here is because of the method of communication between Warren and Ecomoney. If they had been meeting face to face, I think Ecomoney would not have come off quite as nasty as he sounded. Of course, once the misunderstanding starts, it gets out of control rather quickly. A similar thing happened to Ttuuxxx if I recall correctly.

I would say more on the subject, but I have a class starting in ~5 minutes.
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#24 Post by MU »

technosaurus wrote: We should try to get a Google summer of code project for our students out there (Pizzasgood, MU?.
I'm not a student, but jobless. At moment I just take 2 courses Java/C#, that enhance my chances to find a job again.
I almost had one - but the main client of the company was a bank , so at moment, all projects stopped.
I have a meeting in another company on tuesday.

So despite being jobless, I can not reliably plan on projects, that would take several "fulltime weeks".

Concerning Whodo:
I was requested, if I would be available to play a leading role for Puppy 4.2.
I had to reject, because of the mentioned time issue.
At moment, I'm often so tired in the afternoon, that I just can provide some basic fixes to Newyearspup (NYP), but can not solve all bugs, or add all language patches.
So since weeks, NYP is in a "Release Candidate" status.

Saying this, I must emphasize my highest respect for Whodo, who managed to coordinate all the different project teams of Puppy 4.2, like the language team, and all others.
This is an enormous job he does.

Ecomoney sometimes sounds a bit rude, but I have no problem with it, as I worked commercially for a year on Muppy. So I know the pressure related to that.
This is, because he has the pressure, to maintain a "product".
Puppy itself is not a "product" though, so the organization follows some different rules.
Not even a month has passed since the release yet - so we are certainly not yet retarded concerning bugfixes.
Creating a bugfixed version of a comunity system will take a while. If you start uploading a Puppy 4.2.1, where only some small issues are fixed, people will say: "oh god, how can you release only so few fixes!".

Simply give Whodo the time required for a proper bugfix release so that you will not be disappointed then.

Mark
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#25 Post by DaveS »

Ping MU. Good luck with the job hunt man............. tough times.
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#26 Post by Lobster »

Lobster might have a mantra to resolve this little crisis...

Mantra powered Puplet
http://tmxxine.com/wik/wikka.php?wakka= ... xineVision

there is an OZ mantra
AVA BEER MATE
or in Puppy terms 'Dog biscuits all around'

Let me say again:

Viz 2.15CE was supervised by Warren and was released
as an 'official' numbered Puppy :)
4.2 was supervised and with a lot of work is with us
Well done everyone who participated

Looking froward to 4.2.1 - Warren is still in charge because he can and does the job.
Thanks WhoDo.

Are there no bugs to test and report for 4.2.1?
For every person who wishes things rushed, there are people saying, 'take your time'.

Remember there are also vested interests who will find ways of producing discord in the Linux community.

I agree with MU
Simply give Whodo the time required for a proper bugfix release so that you will not be disappointed then.
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#27 Post by gerry »

@Tronkel- I understood that the Distrowatch ranking is based on the number of people READING ABOUT a particular distro, not how many download/install/use it. So Puppy being number two only means that a lot of people decided to have a look and read all about it.

Gerry

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Aitch
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#28 Post by Aitch »

Oh Dear

Dirty laundry again

To have such a good distro & such a poor human rapport between fellow forum members, regardless of their role, is IMHO just sad, as it goes public & has an effect for EVERY linux distro, not just Puppy

We should be both PROUD & VIGILANT!!

There's nothing wrong with saying XXX is broke, & publishing a bugfix ASAP

There is however, something wrong with making things/taking things personally

Can this thread be modified to off public focus i.e. hidden? - is there a way?

I've worked in the music industry with 'stars'

On stage they are heroes, offstage they can be a-holes

But the public remember the hero

So please lets keep this offstage drama just that

And keep everyone's, especially Puppy's reputation clean

Getting to number 2 @ Distrowatch can be achieved by bad press too, you know!

Thanks to both WhoDo & Rob - I value you both!

but for different reasons & don't see you 'in competition'

Whodo

I haven't voted because I don't think the question arises

You were asked by Barry & until that changes....roll with it


Aitch :)
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tronkel
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#29 Post by tronkel »

gerry wrote:
@Tronkel- I understood that the Distrowatch ranking is based on the number of people READING ABOUT a particular distro, not how many download/install/use it
That is indeed true.

But how do the readers get to a download link for Puppy? Very often they would link to it via some web review page that had something positive to say about Puppy. Before they actually download the ISO though, further research might then take them to Distrowatch where they read all about it and in doing so increment Puppy's rating by one point.

The point I was trying to make was, that if Warren had made such a fundamentally disastrous job of 4.2 as Ecomoney asserts, then there is no way the click-throughs would have been capable of elevating Puppy to No 2 ranking, either directly or indirectly.
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#30 Post by ecomoney »

Hi Everyone, Im just stopping in on a friends laptop on the way to my next job. Ive had a good read, but dont have the time to reply to them all now. Ive got good answers prepared for all of them though! ;-)


One quick point for now...
Maybe the point of this thread would be for Whodo to discover that community does want you to co-ordinate the releases, and re-releases when necessary. Maybe thats what I do, and thats why I shouldnt have my i.p banned.
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#31 Post by Béèm »

I see no reason for WhoDo to step down, unless he feels himself that it harms his health.
There is no reason to get sick because of a project.
So, take the right decision.
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#32 Post by 01micko »

ttuuxxx wrote:
01micko wrote:Hmmmmmm....mmmm...m

The voting isn't working for me. Is Kevin Rudd planning to implement this voting system for federal elections? (due soon I'd say :lol: )

If it was working, I would sign up with another bodgy 24 emails and vote yes for each. Warren you're gone. Sorry. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Mick I'm not sure with what your saying? Do you support Warren or want to see him step down? What I take from what you said is that if you could sign up on the forum with 24 fake names you would vote for him to step down? And what have ecomoney replace him? You wouldn't be saying that? would you?
ttuuxxx
Was a joke of course ttuuxxx :) . I think WhoDo would have got it. If WhoDo sent us into battle, I'd go! OTOH, if Rudd did, I'd run!
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#33 Post by Pizzasgood »

@Aitch: Love the attachment. Roll on. 8)


I for one am most certainly not banning Ecomoney. So there has been some argument. That's life. This isn't some fluffy sugary feel-good cuddle-party forum. Better to have arguments than to blindly follow the leader. Arguments are inevitable when you get a bunch of smart people together. Different minds view things from different angles and have different priorities and definitions.


I vote for WhoDo to stay in charge for the time being. He's done a great job. Much better than I could have done, even if I had the time. I do agree that over the long run, it should rotate, but that's long run. A person should have time to get a feel for what they're doing and do a good job.


When I get stressed, I take a leaf from Dune's litany against fear, and simply let the stress pass over me and through me, leaving nothing behind but myself.
A Bene Gesserit wrote:I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
Too bad that doesn't work to eliminate homework and paperwork too. :|

Another good source of stress relief is http://icanhascheezeburger.com/, though that one can make things worse if the stress is related to lack of time, and the issue demanding the time has not yet been resolved...
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#34 Post by pa_mcclamrock »

Please don't step down as co-ordinator. Please do give a bit earlier and more prominent advance notice of deadlines next time. :)

As for the proposed (or demanded) bugfix release, if you had to do a whole new release every time a few bugs were found, there would probably be no end of releases and release-related headaches. It's better, on balance (IMHO), that users who actually need particular post-release bugfixes should get ample assistance in finding them. I've fixed at least three reported bugs (or two bugs and one lack of a needed feature) in RemaX since Puppy 4.2 Final came out, and I'm pretty sure that three new releases (or even one) would not have been either necessary or desirable to get this done! :lol:
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#35 Post by 01micko »

Hello All :)

WhoDo did (and is still doing :wink: ) a fantastic job of coodinating 4.2. Let us not forget that it is more than just getting a bunch of packages together and building an iso from unleashed. There is promotion to coordinate, documentation, numerous other details. Let's not forget WhoDo was crook for a number of weeks but battled on regardless.

As far as I'm concerned ecomoney's input is invaluable, as is panzerpuppy's and ... well... every puppy user's.

May I make a suggestion. Why don't one of us throw our hat into the ring and coordinate 4.2X CE? This would leave WhoDo free to bugfix 4.2 and coordinate 4.X or 5. In previous CE development, the Benevolent Dictator was not particularly involved directly, moreso he had an advisory role. If people like this idea, should we ask for noms and have a vote?

Cheers

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#36 Post by hillside »

WhoDo needs to decide if he wants to put up with the kind of pressure such a project entails. I think he's done an excellent job and encourage him to complete the project.

Sometimes everyone ought to step away from the computer, enjoy the day, and maybe have a brew.

I haven't quite figured out how ecomoney is running a business plan based on Puppy, but he can't expect his business model to dictate how Puppy proceeds.

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#37 Post by nic2109 »

I have many things to say on this topic but will limit myself to just a few of them.

1. Warren has done a magnificent co-ordinator job and has set a very high standard. He will be a hard act to follow when he does finally get tired of the hassle.

2. Robert should try demanding that Microsoft or Canonical fix something immediately and see if they even notice him.

3. Robert has decided for various reasons to use Puppy for "Business Critical" applications despite knowing all about its development process and support models. He knowingly took the risk that things break and might not be fixed in a time-scale that is congenial to his needs. If that's not good enough then he should try something else that is more fit for purpose and offers fewer surprises. Like 4.1 perhaps - no-one forced him to use 4.2.

4. Puppy was rejected by the OLPC Project despite being probably the most suitable OS for the hardware. My guess is that the development and support status was partly (or maybe even mainly) behind that decision. If you are using a PC for critical work - and support of the vulnerable in their dealings with the state are really really worthwhile things to do - then you need to be sure of your tools. Choose more wisely next time.

5. When posting in a forum such as this - especially if (like me) you obscure your real identity - it is very easy to write things you might not say face to face. This can lead to ranting and rudeness which is unpleasant and unwelcome. Ordinary courtesy is worth a great deal, so can we please have more of it and much less demanding.
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title

#38 Post by raffy »

Could we change the title to "Personal differences over bugfix release schedule"? And remove the voting?

Just a 0.0002c suggestion. :)
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poll

#39 Post by MinHundHettePerro »

Being the Benevolent Chief of Force does not make anyone the Malevolent Dictator.
Go for it WhoDo, bring on the Luftwaffe!

I didn't cast a vote, since I never vote for anything/one, only against, and as the Poll is phrased, against would be for, and there we are again.

just my two SE-öre - 0.0032 AUD

Cheers/
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Re: schedule

#40 Post by WhoDo »

raffy wrote:@Whodo: You made Lobster's head swim with your long post- now he wrote 2.13CE for 2.15CE. Maybe the water is hot in these places. :wink:
Yum. Lobster Thermidor! :P
raffy wrote:My advise: just post your proposed release schedule and we will vote on it. As Barry is anticipating the release of Up up in 5 days, maybe release a bugfix version any day now?

That should also calm Robert. Let's understand that he is frantic to deploy for the cybercafes, and want the best Puppy to be deployed there. Of course we know that you're in the best position to help him, and in so doing also the rest of us.
raffy, this isn't about Robert getting a solid base for his Cybercafe project. He has already said that he is quite capable of applying the patches provided for that. It is instead about Robert dictating when is the appropriate time to release an official update! The last time I checked that decision wasn't his to make! Robert seems obsessed with the idea that he is the only one with a hotline to the Puppy user base; by which he generally means his clients. I keep trying to tell him that the Puppy community is much wider than that, and not all of them share HIS concerns about the 4.2 release and its problems.

@All - It is clear from some of the posts here that I need to reiterate why I believe an update release has not been appropriate, although I have posted my reasons here on the forum before.

1. Puppy 4.2, code named "Deep Thought", was only released a little before Easter. If we posted a so-called bug fix update within a week or two, how much "Deep Thought" would the wider Linux community have perceived went into the original release? We would have been a laughing stock, despite being in the same position as many other releases when it comes to relatively MINOR bugs. It is all about credibility with Linux. When you reach the top of any tree, there are those who want to bring you down as quickly as possible - usually so they can take your place. Puppy is no different in that respect. Look at the commentary on Distrowatch when PCLinuxOS made it the top, and how there are those now crowing about its recent fall from grace.

2. The identified bugs have repeatedly been characterised by ecomoney as "showstopper" bugs. To my mind that demonstrates a general lack of understanding of the term. Everything in Puppy 4.2 works as it should for MOST people in MOST situations. Nothing is "broken" in that sense. Abiword processes words and CUPS prints them. Yes, there are things that need to be fixed, and there have been fixes posted in the forum in the appropriate place. Having a link to the Patches & Updates thread on the Download page is a good idea. Yes there are things that worked well in 4.12 that seem problematic in 4.2, BUT telling people to revert to 4.12 gives an entirely negative impression from its source; the Puppy community. We would seriously lose credibility by publicising that we had launched a "faulty" product when in fact it had fewer bugs than almost any other release before it! 4.1 was followed by 4.11 and then 4.12 - not unusual for a new format release. We needed 4.2 to say to the wider community "Barry's having a rest but Puppy will go on regardless". Posting quick fix releases is counterproductive to that, especially when the bugs are comparatively minor and relatively few in number.

The time is certainly approaching when it will be appropriate to release 4.2.1, or perhaps even 4.3 although the latter is considerably further off at the moment. The question I face every day is "Is the time right?", and so far the answer has been no. Every day since 4.2 was released and the first problem was discovered, ecomoney has been "in my ear", both through the forum and PM's, to pull the ISO's from our mirrors and upload a bug fixed version. I'd give him A+ for stubborn persistence if nothing else. I do NOT need someone else second guessing my judgements about when it is appropriate to release, and applying whatever pressure to get their own way. I have enough voices in my head already! :roll: What many of you don't know about the 4.2 release is that while there were some voices on the forum saying "it's not ready yet", there were many others INCLUDING BARRY, telling me it was time to release and not to worry about finding more bugs ..."there are always bugs"(sic) said Barry.

I have to be concerned with the WHOLE of the Puppy community, and protecting the Puppy ethos as well as our credibility. It would be a mistake to give too much credence to a few "squeeky wheels" crying for things to be fixed and fixed NOW! Although this is a community distribution now, and Barry has made that abundantly clear on his Blog and elsewhere, that doesn't mean it should be run by committee. You've all heard the story that the camel was intended to be a horse but it was designed by a committee! There is room for community input, and certainly room for some compromise to suit the community view of things, but ultimately there must be only ONE person making the final choices. Otherwise you will have anarchy and chaos will be its product.

I will leave the poll to run its course. I chose 7 days so even infrequent visitors could exercise their vote. On the early returns it looks like I'm going to be stuck with the job. I had secretly hoped that I could go back to a more sedentary involvement in Puppy. :wink: I have no regrets about posting this issue here, as public as it is. I don't see it as airing dirty laundry. I see it as being fully transparent in our governance. There are no secret committees, no hidden agendas and no ulterior motives or hidden influences within the Puppy community development effort. That should now be very clear. I also don't believe the community should be asked to vote every time there is an issue to be decided, otherwise why bother with a coordinator; so no vote on a possible release schedule. If I supported that course we would be stuck designing camels instead of Puppies.

I am aware that Barry will be releasing a radical new "think piece" to publicise Woof! I am tempted to release 4.2.1 at or before that time in order to capitalise on any renewed interest in Puppy, but I haven't come to a final decision on that yet. I'm stockpiling patches and updates to that end at the moment, and the devs and packagers are quietly supplying those to me in the background.

@ecomoney - while I don't like taking this course, I have decided that I will not respond to any PM from you again until I'm fully satisfied you understand and are ready to accept that your agenda isn't the only agenda or even the most important one. I don't believe you should be banned, but I do admit to secretly hoping I didn't have to deal with your bullying methods, regardless of how well intentioned they may be.

@Other posters - I will attempt to answer legitimate questions about my choices in this thread until the poll closes. After that I will expect to be allowed to do the job for which I volunteered without having to publicly or privately justify my every decision. If that can't happen, then perhaps ecomoney is right and I'm not the man for the job. There is enough work to do without being required to explain every small step taken to achieve the goal. I am not really having FUN, but I am giving back some of what I have received courtesy of Puppy and the community and for the moment that's good enough.
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