wish list for next puppy release

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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ttuuxxx
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#61 Post by ttuuxxx »

rheya wrote:well, puppy is a small OS , so it couldn't bear toomany programs, besides, it doesn't need them , but I'd love it could work with all hardware ( old and new ) ...
besides I'd like puppy had the newest web browsers and mail client and IM and skype .
these are light programs puppy could permit.
last : I'd prefer puppy would make upgrading and new installed programs easier...( skype IS easy , anyway ) :D
4.2 has the latest Seamokey/mail the latest x-chat, forget about skype as default its too big:) but the pet is in the forum software section somewhere, plus it actually comes as a precompiled application when you download it from skype itself, you can just install it because its a static application.
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ecomoney
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#62 Post by ecomoney »

Suggestions for the next puppy (from me and my users) which I hope will be 4.2.1 (bugfixed 4.2)

-Thorough and complete bugfixing process (see below)

-Easy access to additional applications MOST USED BY END USERS from the desktop install icon, ie

Firefox (2.0.0.20 as its most stable)
Openoffice (preferably 3 series)
Amsn (0.98 beta is quite stable, and has webcam support)
Skype 2
GCompris

NONE of these are currently in the repositories AFAIK

-A reintroduction of a chat client (I hear the latest pidgin has a facebook chat plugin?)

-The new prettier JWM 2.x window manager, which also fixes gxine fullscreen bug - will need testing

-Testing of all filetypes (mimetypes) so they open automatically by clicking on them (i.e. .torrent files) or opening from the browser

There have been some positive suggestions about changes to the development process itself from 4.2.0 - taken from a thread here.
- Pre-release ticklist - Ecomoney

- Whole Forum "sandbox" section for bugs, with "bug per thread" approach, rather than one thread for all bugs -Ttuxxx

- Recruit "Package use experts" (not the compilers) and ask them to take part in testing before development begins - Patriot

- Have a "Testing Manager" to keep track of the testing process, only release when theyre happy too do so...no rush! - Ecomoney

- Make it easy to collect bug reports (default homepage) - James C

- Keep changes/package updates to only the ones needed by Users - Ecomoney
Suggestion: Perhaps Ttuxxx's "no-bling" bugfixed 4.2 could be used as a base...but definitely with the "bling" put back in (pWidgets), perhaps sans Icewm to create space for a chat client (new JWM is pretty enough).
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ttuuxxx
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#63 Post by ttuuxxx »

ecomoney wrote: perhaps sans Icewm to create space for a chat client (new JWM is pretty enough).
Listen Ecomoney what part of what WhoDo said when we started 4.2 did you not get,? he said something like "we are having 2 window manager to ease the transition into Icewm, you and zigbert both get this confused, JWM is on its way out! not new and improved, Its rounded corners, big deal, and to have a transparent desktop that would be unstable and resource stealing crap again. We can put 2 shovels of crap in every release can we? lol
Seriously the applications you place on top are too big for the repo, basically they are more for your own interest we read what you type all the time, Puppy isn't here to serve your clients, it here to serve the general public, And to kill Icewm for another chat client is stupid, don't you see Xchat in the menu?? oh ya I forgot your clients likes Im with voice, why do think this is your own company and your try to run us for your clients needs? man you have gull.
You want us to host like 400MB compressed of software for like 57 applications,
Firefox (2.0.0.20 as its most stable) <-- mozilla no longer supports it. Dead in the water
Openoffice (preferably 3 series) <--- 280MB-/+ lol ya right
Amsn (0.98 beta is quite stable, and has webcam support) <-- every update doesn't work with the previous version. Stupid application.
Skype 2 <--- Get the static bin and install it, No need to host static archives, So tell your clients to download it and run it direct, no compiling needed.
GCompris <--- Very large and unstable kids game for your schools, not puppies agenda.

Next you'll probably want to rename 'Puppy Linux' to 'ecomoney Linux LTD" lol what a FW
We aren't here to turn puppy linux in your own little puplet. Stop using us for your own personal benefits its so transparent.
ttuuxxx
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NathanO
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Software

#64 Post by NathanO »

I am sure this has been requested, but just adding my request for it:

If Pizzasgood would be in a position to keep it up to date petbegone as part of the release would be a big help for a person trying to keep Puppy as small as one can and still add programs that one wants.

I do not need 2 window managers, so being able to remove one of them and all related Eye Candy would be useful. I am sure that other people have other items they would like to remove.

If it could be made part of the package manager would help.

One other idea for the package manager would be to give a discription of what the installed package does such as 'Firefox: Web browser'.

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Re: Software

#65 Post by pa_mcclamrock »

NathanO wrote:If Pizzasgood would be in a position to keep it up to date petbegone as part of the release would be a big help for a person trying to keep Puppy as small as one can and still add programs that one wants.
The "Remaster Slimmer" feature of Remaster Express ("RemaX custom live-CD creator" under the Setup menu in Puppy 4.2) does basically the same thing as petbegone--lets you uninstall built-in programs in order to remaster a Puppy live-CD that doesn't have them.
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NathanO
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Petbegone

#66 Post by NathanO »

Petbegone under the Package Manager would be a better place for one that is working with a save file or an install. Just my 2 cents worth.

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technosaurus
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#67 Post by technosaurus »

unfortunately "removing" packages with petbegone does you no good unless you actually remaster... to learn why you will need to read up on how unionfs and aufs works
Check out my [url=https://github.com/technosaurus]github repositories[/url]. I may eventually get around to updating my [url=http://bashismal.blogspot.com]blogspot[/url].

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#68 Post by pa_mcclamrock »

technosaurus wrote:unfortunately "removing" packages with petbegone [or Remaster Slimmer] does you no good unless you actually remaster... to learn why you will need to read up on how unionfs and aufs works
The bottom line is that (complications aside) you have a read-only layer, typically /initrd/pup_ro2, and a read-write layer, /initrd/pup_rw. In a simple boot-from-CD setup, the read-only layer comes from the pup_xxx.sfs main file on the CD (or copied somewhere else for faster booting), and the read-write layer comes from the pup_save file. "Deleting" a file doesn't actually delete it from the read-only layer, which would be impossible. What it does is to put a hidden "whiteout" file with zero bytes in the read-write layer, which makes Puppy not see the corresponding file in the read-only layer.

So, if you don't remaster, the entire pup_xxx.sfs file still goes into RAM and it's just as big as it was before, only you can't see the whited-out parts. If you do remaster, though, the files that were whited out don't go into the new, smaller pup_xxx.sfs file, so less RAM is used when you boot from the remastered CD.
It's stupid to use inferior software for ideological reasons.
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NathanO
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Remaster

#69 Post by NathanO »

What would it take to solve that 'whiteout' problem? A complete recopy? Why should we force a user to remaster if they have information they use in the My Docs? And is the same true for a full install?

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#70 Post by technosaurus »

yes, petbegone should actually remove programs on a full install
Check out my [url=https://github.com/technosaurus]github repositories[/url]. I may eventually get around to updating my [url=http://bashismal.blogspot.com]blogspot[/url].

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ecomoney
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#71 Post by ecomoney »

Listen Ecomoney what part of what WhoDo said when we started 4.2 did you not get,? he said something like "we are having 2 window manager to ease the transition into Icewm, you and zigbert both get this confused, JWM is on its way out! not new and improved, Its rounded corners, big deal, and to have a transparent desktop that would be unstable and resource stealing crap again. We can put 2 shovels of crap in every release can we? lol
I wasnt part of the 4.2 planning stage, so this is news to me. I always thought jwm was slightly faster than icewm? If jwm is more flexible too (i.e can do transparency if people want it) then my vote would be for that.

Seriously the applications you place on top are too big for the repo,
Then the repo needs redesigning/re-working. They are the most popular open source apps in the world and the repo cant handle them?
basically they are more for your own interest we read what you type all the time,
Yes, I use them too, along with the most of the rest of the world (except Ttuxxx)
Puppy isn't here to serve your clients, it here to serve the general public,
My clients are the "general public", who are yours? Mine like OpenOffice, aMSN and Firefox.
And to kill Icewm for another chat client is stupid,
To have two window managers but only one single niche Instant Messenger client is far Stupider.
don't you see Xchat in the menu??
Yes, but it only handles IRC chat, most of General public use MSN, Yahoo, Facebook, ICQ etc and only sometimes IRC. Pidgin handles them all. Puppy should "have all the applications needed for daily use (by linux newbs)" - Puppy Mission Statement.
oh ya I forgot your clients likes Im with voice,
Yes, Vocally is generally the way people find it natural to communicate, this is why we evolved complex language and a voicebox.
Why do think this is your own company
I dont, Puppy Linux isnt a commercial profit making company, and neither is mine. If it was I would be using Windows, Ive made a LOT more money out of that.
and your (sic) try to run us for your clients needs?
As I said, my clients are the general public/linux newbs. Who are yours again?
man you have gull.
Do you mean "Gall"? If so then yes, lots.
You want us to host like 400MB compressed of software for like 57 applications,
Not necessarily, I want new users of linux to have access to the applications they want and need.
Firefox (2.0.0.20 as its most stable) <-- mozilla no longer supports it. Dead in the water
Who cares if it works?
Openoffice (preferably 3 series) <--- 280MB-/+ lol ya right
Like I say we dont need to host it, we need to give Puppy Linux users easy access to it.
Amsn (0.98 beta is quite stable, and has webcam support) <-- every update doesn't work with the previous version. Stupid application.
Then we stick with a version that does work. Its an application that fulfills a need to new linux users. It should be available easily to them, it would be "stupid" not to.
Skype 2 <--- Get the static bin and install it, No need to host static archives, So tell your clients to download it and run it direct, no compiling needed.
Yeah, you try explaining that to them. They dont need any more reasons to stick with Windows.
GCompris <--- Very large and unstable kids game for your schools, not puppies agenda.
An excellent program used the world over for teaching children literacy, numeracy, cognitive skills etc by people that cannot afford commercial software - so they can hopefully escape poverty. Thats on a lot of peoples agenda....at least those who dont have your personality as a contraceptive.
Next you'll probably want to rename 'Puppy Linux' to 'ecomoney Linux LTD" lol what a FW
TBH, its name doesnt do it justice, but I understand if BarryK wants to call it that for historic reasons. He is a man with very blessed with very unselfish ideals and a wish to create something that will be of value to others than just himself. Ive already explained why I set up an organisation for my work with Puppy Linux, and just how corporate Im not.. Dont keep trying to make this false point in various places just to forward your own personal agenda. FUD
We aren't here to turn puppy linux in your own little puplet.
Too true, or yours either. Im simply not going to let you turn puppy into something that benefits you and your own niche computing needs. Its too important a resource for that.
Stop using us for your own personal benefits its so transparent.
I would dearly love that you would use your technical skills for anyones benefit, mine included. Unfortunately your inability to take on board constructive criticism, include other peoples observations, recognise others needs, produce tested packages, work as a team, share and document your work, maintain a level of civility to other prevents you from being any use whatsoever....to anyone least of all yourself.

Considering all of these things, together with your obvious skill at spreading FUD, perhaps you might better serve Open Source by getting a job with Micro$oft?
Last edited by ecomoney on Sun 12 Apr 2009, 12:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Aitch
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#72 Post by Aitch »

Can anyone compile a FUD filter for the next version? :wink:

Aitch :)

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#73 Post by Dingo »

a warm wish is this:

from Puppy 4.1 version, I'm not able to use my wireless adapter

NETGEAR WG311v3

via ndiswrapper that works fine in older puppy versions (until 4.0) why this? what's changed?
replace .co.cc with .info to get access to stuff I posted in forum
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synth
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#74 Post by synth »

Pizzasgood wrote:Note: this is mostly of interest to people with a box that will pretty much only be used by kids. It isn't set up to be easily switched back and forth between a protected mode and a root mode (unless you enjoy working on the commandline, because you can get to a password-protected root commandline easily). This could be made to work in a dual-use situation without too much work though.


Attached is a tarball containing two scripts: dot.xinitrc and initialize_kids. What you do is extract them, backup your .xinitrc file (it's hidden, so click the "eye" button in the toolbar), then rename the dot.xinitrc file to .xinitrc. Then open a terminal and run the initialize_kids script:
./initialize_kids

What that will do is create a new user named 'kids' with the home directory /home/kids/, copy in some of the settings from /root, and do some slight tweaks to set them up. The modified .xinitrc file will cause the desktop icons and the windowmanager to run as the limited user 'kids' also, so that if they start any programs those programs will be limited to /home/kids and /tmp.

Notice: From the next time you restart X, that will be the default situation. To put it back, you would need to restore the backed up version of /root/.xinitrc and then restart X.

In order to get root-powers, you can either run the command 'su', which will ask for the root password (woofwoof by default), or you can press <CTRL><ALT><F2> to log into a virtual terminal. All commands executed from that terminal will be run as root. Be sure to close the terminal or run 'exit' after finished, so the kids don't take over the system. You can return to the gui from the virtual terminal with <ALT><F3>.


My reccomendation for how to do this would be to first set up a pristine Puppy 4.12. Then install all the games they'll want. Next do the above steps to set up the kids account. Then restart X and you should come up as 'kids' (you can test by opening a terminal and running 'whoami'). Now you can configure the icons, wallpaper, theme, etc. You'll probably also want to edit the file /home/kids/.jwmrc so that it doesn't have any of the extra stuff they don't need. You may also want to disable the option to exit X, since if they did that they could mess around on the commandline as root. And the reboot and shutdown options won't be functioning right because of some permissions issue I didn't bother looking into. If you want them to be able to turn it off, let me know and I'll look into that. Otherwise just open a terminal, run 'su', then run 'wmpoweroff' or 'wmreboot'.

You can change the root password from 'woofwoof' to whatever you want by running the 'passwd root' command.

If they discover that pressing <CTRL><ALT><BACKSPACE> lets them kill X and reach the root commandline, you can disable that feature by editing /etc/X11/xorg.conf and adding this option to the "ServerFlags" section:
Option "DontZap"


Once you have it all working how you want, backup their home directory. As root, run this:

Code: Select all

cd /home
tar czpf kids.tar.gz home/
Now if their home directory gets goofed up, you can restore it by running these commands as root:

Code: Select all

cd /home
rm -r kids
tar xpf kids.tar.gz

One more thing to mention: the 'kids' user cannot mount and unmount partitions, so I set this up to disable those drive icons that show up on the bottom, since they won't work anymore. If you have stuff you want them to be able to access on the drive, you can edit (as root) either the file /etc/rc.d/rc.local or the file /etc/fstab to have it automount. But be aware that you'll need to play with the permissions to make sure they can't wipe out the drive. If it's a windows drive I think all you can do is set it to mount read-only. If it's a linux partition you can set specific locations to be owned by kids (using 'chown') and make sure everything else isn't world-writable (chmod changes permissions).


EDIT: If you right-click in the white-space of a rox-filer window and go to options, you can edit which buttons appear on the toolbar. May be worth removing the "eye" button. Then the only directory they could goof up easily is the /home/kids/Choices directory, which mostly just contains info about the desktop. If you get everything the way you want it, you could run chown -R root:root /home/kids/Choices and I think that would still leave everything working but make it so they can't modify anything in Choices. It will also make it so they can't reorganize the desktop icons.
@Pizza: Are you planning to update this script to enable easy reboot/shutdown for the protected user and easy user switching?

A dual-user Puppy sounds like a great idea.

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#75 Post by computerophil »

I wish that Puppy stays as it used to be small, quickly and realible,..

The atands to put too many things into it I feel disturbing espezially there shouldn't change the primary Puppy feeling (JWM) , Seamonkey is a perfect joice (inkl html-editor + mailclient) please remain with Abiword (I don't like OpenOffice)

So the only changings I would like is Java, maybe Skype and a radio.
Last edited by computerophil on Tue 19 May 2009, 21:40, edited 1 time in total.
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#76 Post by ecomoney »

Interesting stuff Synth/PG...I will point it out to Edupup (puppy for kids) developer Slapshot.
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#77 Post by glengainer »

computerophil wrote:I wish that Puppy stays as it used to be small, quickly and realible,..

The atands to put too many things into it I feel disturbing espezially there shouldn't change the primary Puppy feeling (JWM) , Seamonkey is a perfect joice (inkl html-editor + mailclient) please remain with Abiword (I don't like OpenOffice)

So the only changings I would like is Java, maybe Skype and a radio.
Maybe there should be a "puppy" puppy with just the basic software with the traditional <100MB and a "dog" puppy with the extra stuff that people like (open office ect) with bigger size (but still fits on a cd 650MB )

Also can someone make a just web puppy please just a web brower installed (Don't make me beg like a dog :P )

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#78 Post by technosaurus »

browser only pup ... download gpup and install opera and flash (you may want gxine & plugins too) then remaster... should be ~60mb or so if you really worked at it you could probably strip it down to ~50mb by deleting unnecessary files at the last stage before it builds the pup_XXX.sfs (I found it easier to add packages to tiny core or just use slitaz or xpud for this purpose)
Check out my [url=https://github.com/technosaurus]github repositories[/url]. I may eventually get around to updating my [url=http://bashismal.blogspot.com]blogspot[/url].

dcbevins
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My 2 Cents

#79 Post by dcbevins »

I've used puppy on and off since 3.0. I am just setting up 4.2 as we speak.

4.2 immedieatly seems busy. It looks nice but clutered. You have tons of icons on the desktop, a big fat clock, things on the top and sides that jump at you, a menu that is more or less the same as a right click on the desktop menu.

I like icewm better than jwm, not sure why. Could someone figure out a way to make icewm themes with backgrounds override rox pinboards background image setting?

I would like to see all the duplicate ways to do the same task greatly reduced. I don't need a way to start something from the desktop icon an icon in the panel, the main menu, a right click menu, or the new control panel. This redudancy IMHO complicates things, not makes them simpler and more user friendly. The right click menu seems like a waste with the main menu present. Other funcitons would be more useful.

I know this has been said before, but the way packages are handled is rough. This to me is the biggest drawback to puppy. Puppy is the fastest linux distro I have ever tried, and I have tried many with diffrent configurations. It makes it the only choice for some old machines I have, (I am not doing win98). But I have new grey hairs from trying to find the latest or at least a newer version of an app I desire or one which I can't find a working pup. Chasing down the dependancies is ghastly. The pet manager has a sparce choice of apps.

Pup packages make things easier. However, those these are riddled with missing dependancies. Trying to find a web page with the pup for your puppy version is time consuming, certainly a turn off for new users. Also, searching through library sources has the same problems.

Can't all these pup sources be added directly to Puppy? A offical unoffical warning could be added if needed. But a way to look at all these pup's, filtered to your puppy version directly from some mechanism in puppy would be great. Same for all those pup's with library files.

Could some script be added that used ldd to at least give some warning that a pup might not work before you install?

If hosting all these files is a problem, maybe a mechanism that point to source files confirmed to be able to be compiled in a certain version of puppy and a way to grab them, compile them and install them with an uninstall option.

A one click button to install compile support. Maybe adding a defualt make command that if type asked, "Compiler Missing Install? (y/n)

How about bug fixes. Could a way to auto update be included instead of having to hunt down every patch? What about a way to auto update to a newer version with puppy in place as in going from 3.0 to 4.2

As far as apps go, nothing fat please. I can add fat later. Just basic tools that work.

Also, I would like an Instant Messanger by default. I can add one later, but as Xchat in 4.2 is great but only handles irc.

I realy like puppy. The speed keeps me using it. Don't slow it down whatever you do. I don't think it needs any new features, other than keeping up with old and new hardware, and a better way to manage installing applications. Avoid the feature creep goblin.

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Re: My 2 Cents

#80 Post by ttuuxxx »

dcbevins wrote:
I like icewm better than jwm, not sure why. Could someone figure out a way to make icewm themes with backgrounds override rox pinboards background image setting?

Also, I would like an Instant Messanger by default. I can add one later, but as Xchat in 4.2 is great but only handles irc.
IceWM backgrounds: Yes you can add specific backgrounds to themes and they change with the theme selection. Buttttttttt not with the version on 4.2 or really with any version of Icewm released on puppy to date, basically another bin file called backgrounds, and the source might have to altered to use it on puppy, You see puppy by nature is somewhat hacked together as small as possible to give you the most bang for your MB, but we also use 4x4 pixel images stretched as backgrounds which we couldn't use with the icewm method, It would have to been full images and would add a lot of bloat, plus the bin etc.

IM clients: In the forum under software there are numerous versions of IM clients, pidgin, amsn, ymessenger, etc
Xchat was the smallest and most user friendly I'M client and made a great 'Live help'
ttuuxxx
http://audio.online-convert.com/ <-- excellent site
http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games :)

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