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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Misc
Is Puppy Green?
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb 2009, 01:35    Post subject:  Is Puppy Green?
Subject description: save the planet?
 

Whilst Redmond bloat heats up CPU's around the world
just to keep itself running . . .
http://maratux.blogspot.com/2009/02/windows-antivirus-pollution.html

I read this and recalled a recent conversation I had with a forest
http://www.handlewithlinux.com/more-reasons-to-use-linux-how-green-is-linux

I wonder if Puppy is green?
Seem to remember a conversation about clickless kernel
- did not understand it at the time .. . .
Because Puppy runs from RAM we save battery life as the HD can be powered down
And Sage whilst not fuming about the outrages of Capitalism
advocates 'junk' PC's
Warren who is running Deep Thought recycles computers
Barry is building a windmill.

Could we be more green and save the planet?

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bambuko


Joined: 14 Nov 2007
Posts: 385
Location: North Devon

PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb 2009, 05:53    Post subject: Re: Is Puppy Green?
Subject description: save the planet?
 

Lobster wrote:
. . . Could we be more green and save the planet?

common misconception Laughing about having to "save the planet"
it doesn't need saving Wink it will do fine with or without us
the only thing we need to save is our own bacon Crying or Very sad
so keep planet out of this discussion Cool
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hillside


Joined: 02 Sep 2007
Posts: 642
Location: Minnesota, USA. The frozen north.

PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb 2009, 10:26    Post subject:  

Yes, yes, yes. Keeping old equipment useful instead of spending resources on new heaps of metal and plastic is green.

Of course, the greenest of people are still going to hell in a hand basket, just a little less quickly.


Quote:
the planet ... doesn't need saving it will do fine with or without us


Yes, there will be some kind of mass orbiting the sun no matter what we do, but I'd like to at least maintain the current ecological equilibrium as best we can. It might be nice to restore some of what we have already lost, but stopping the (not so) slow spiral to a-worse-place-than-we-are-in-now would be the first step.

Back to Puppy (and other small Linuxes). If people made a real effort to reuse their old equipment instead of always buying new, it could make a significant difference in energy use and resource depletion. I don't know how much energy it takes to manufacture a new computer system, but it has to be substantial.

I'm hoping that we will soon see some new technology coming to market in the solar energy area. I read about some folks who have developed a glass coating that causes light to scatter horizontally when it strikes the surface. The light then bounces inside the glass structure to the edges where solar cells are mounted to collect the energy. They can collect all the energy from the glass surface by using a minimal number of cells around the outside edge, thus greatly reducing the cost of the solar energy produced. I'm ready to buy that when they get it to market. I want a solar Puppy!
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DMcCunney

Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 897

PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb 2009, 17:01    Post subject:  

hillside wrote:
Yes, there will be some kind of mass orbiting the sun no matter what we do, but I'd like to at least maintain the current ecological equilibrium as best we can. It might be nice to restore some of what we have already lost, but stopping the (not so) slow spiral to a-worse-place-than-we-are-in-now would be the first step.

Don't expect it. One question to ask is how much of global warming is man-made, and how much is the result of really long term climate cycles. Remember, our recorded history has taken place since coming out of a glaciation period. The overall trend has been warmer for a long time.

Human activity has contributed to, but not caused the problems, and there is a limit to what human activity can do to limit or reverse it.

Quote:
Back to Puppy (and other small Linuxes). If people made a real effort to reuse their old equipment instead of always buying new, it could make a significant difference in energy use and resource depletion. I don't know how much energy it takes to manufacture a new computer system, but it has to be substantial.

On the obverse, power consumption is dropping in current systems, simply because power has a monetary cost. The manufacturers are working on power saving features to reduce the total cost of ownership of a system. That old system you keep running instead of upgrading may use a lot more power than the newer machine you pass on.

I've got Puppy running on an old notebook I was given by a friend, who bought a newer, faster system. It's a device using power in my home that wasn't there before, and I now use more energy because I'm running Puppy.

The questions are very seldom as simple as they sound.

Quote:
I'm hoping that we will soon see some new technology coming to market in the solar energy area. I read about some folks who have developed a glass coating that causes light to scatter horizontally when it strikes the surface. The light then bounces inside the glass structure to the edges where solar cells are mounted to collect the energy. They can collect all the energy from the glass surface by using a minimal number of cells around the outside edge, thus greatly reducing the cost of the solar energy produced. I'm ready to buy that when they get it to market. I want a solar Puppy!

I used to be involved in alternative energy, many years ago. The barrier then was the same as it is now: people stayed with traditional energy sources because they were ultimately cheaper than going the alternative route. The big wins in the US were installing solar hot water heaters, which accounted for about 20% of normal home energy usage, and showed a relatively short payback. The other big win was passive - upgrade your insulation to better retain and use the heat you you needed to generate in cold weather.

Photovoltaics are a different matter, and semiconductor economics apply. The big cost in solar cells is the fab to make them, and a good chunk of the cost of a solar panel will be an amortized share of the cost of financing the plant. The more you make, the larger a base you have over which to spread the cost, and the cheaper you can price the product. There were suggestions years back that the US government might subsidize some costs of photovoltaic manufacture to help get the economies of scale to kick in earlier.

There was a chap I heard about years ago who claimed to have invented a method to make amorphous solar cells, rather than crystalline. They could be made in any configuration desired, and could even convert waste heat. When I saw the latter, I said "Whoa! Waste heat? If this is for real, this guy will become the richest man n the world!"

It never hit the market, so I assume there were problems in moving from lab to production. The guy in question was a recognized expert in the industry, so the claim wasn't BS. He thought he could do it.
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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
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Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb 2009, 20:38    Post subject:  


this one collects in the center not edges
http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/22204/?a=f

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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb 2009, 21:03    Post subject:  

there are a few for heat into electricity too:
nanotennas
Thermoelectrics (click the link to bypass the advert)
Ener-G-Rotors (ditto)
ElectraTherm

and yes the road from laboratory to market is long and windy passing through many precipitous mountain paths.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10747
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb 2009, 22:15    Post subject: Re: Is Puppy Green?
Subject description: save the planet?
 

Lobster wrote:
Whilst Redmond bloat heats up CPU's around the world
just to keep itself running . . .
http://maratux.blogspot.com/2009/02/windows-antivirus-pollution.html

I read this and recalled a recent conversation I had with a forest
http://www.handlewithlinux.com/more-reasons-to-use-linux-how-green-is-linux

I wonder if Puppy is green?
Seem to remember a conversation about clickless kernel
- did not understand it at the time .. . .
Because Puppy runs from RAM we save battery life as the HD can be powered down
And Sage whilst not fuming about the outrages of Capitalism
advocates 'junk' PC's
Warren who is running Deep Though recycles computers
Barry is building a windmill.

Could we be more green and save the planet?


Well Lobster yes and no, well 4.2 is different, by far Cpu's and graphic cards take the most watts, not the hard drives, not even close, Plus out of the box Gxine is terrible for playing cd's, live audio streams, video's, etc all around 20% CPU usage, we are talking a lot of killer watts, Alsaplayer takes about 4% which alone will triple the amount of your laptop battery, Pmusic is a terrible applications, when I run it, my really fast pc, with 4 gigs of ddr2 800, responds like a 233mmx, That program should be removed asap. The mouse gitters all over the screen, the pages move slow, etc. Also all that eye candy 4.2 has is another waste of electricity, every time I move a window over the screen it erases the icons, clock etc, what ever is on the desktop, then it has to replace it. That must take a lot of power also. When users tested the VLC I complied on old computers vs Gxine they noticed that VLC was using a min 1/2 of cpu resources. I pesonally if were going to make a green version of puppy I would make the applications as small as possible, compiled as i386. and remove, pwidgets,pmusic,Gxine, replace with alsaplayer,vlc.I would keep the small version of seamonkey I made, since its smaller than firefox, or opera. I probably would get rid of Pburn also, ever notice your screen blink when you start it up, and it says installing, I bet thats a power spike, you don't get that with any other burner. I don't blame zigbert, I think its more to do with gtkdialog. The applications are lite for sure, but they sure to take the cpu or memory usage. Oh ya remember at the time VLC was being test against gxine, VLC was double the size and 1/2 the resources, out of the box. Sure users can probably configure it better but most don't. The way it comes is the way its played. Building applications GUI's with foxtoolkit would be the greener way to go.
ttuuxxx

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Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Fri 27 Feb 2009, 23:52    Post subject:  

Quote:
I pesonally if were going to make a green version of puppy I would .......
I would remove X and all gui programs, add more virtual terminals, the fbcon module, Vim, Nethack, Links, Mplayer, and either libcaca or aalib. And I would add this command to ~/.bashrc
Code:
export PS1='\[\033[1;33;42m\]\$ \[\033[0;34;42m\]'




Just kidding about that last one, I actually prefer this:
Code:
export PS1='\[\033[0;31m\]\$ \[\033[0;0m\]'

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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7797
Location: qld

PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb 2009, 00:20    Post subject:  

Any one remember the old AT, where the monitor displayed green ? I don't think any version of puppy no matter how chopped down could run on those!
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DMcCunney

Joined: 02 Feb 2009
Posts: 897

PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb 2009, 00:32    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
Any one remember the old AT, where the monitor displayed green ? I don't think any version of puppy no matter how chopped down could run on those!

Yes, I do. And I used to have an Amdek amber monitor connected to my ancient XT clone, driven by a Hercules graphics card. I also spent way too much time in front of IBM 3270 terminals connected to mainframes (and block-mode terminals have a completely different notion of full screen editing than we are used to) as well as genuine DEC VT-100 terminals, whose emulation is still buried in things like rxvt.

Yes, Puppy could run on one of those monitors. Just dispense with X and GUIs and do everything from a command line... Smile
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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5016
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb 2009, 02:45    Post subject:  

The problem with old PCs is that they use lots of energy.
My old K6 400mhz server uses about 10 times the electricty of a NAS unit!
Most VIA ITX PC boards are very green & faster than an Atom (5 watts).
AMD showed a Athlon cpu that uses 15 watts, & a X2 that uses 22 watts!
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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7797
Location: qld

PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb 2009, 02:45    Post subject:  

DMcCunney wrote:


Yes, Puppy could run on one of those monitors. Just dispense with X and GUIs and do everything from a command line... Smile
______
Dennis


The monitor, maybe, some serious kernel hacking would be needed for anything else from that era! (IMO)

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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb 2009, 03:53    Post subject:  

company called http://geodynamics.com.au has just completed tests for geothermal energy in oz. details at page. so when they get this on grid everyone will be required to use as much energy as possible to dissipate accumulated earth heat.
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Lobster
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PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb 2009, 05:09    Post subject:  

Interesting comments guys. Smile

For me being green is also about sustainability and efficiency.
So I would much rather use a solar or lower energy mobile phone
as my main computer BUT it is not yet up to the job.

Maybe there is a phone you can plug a keyboard, monitor and mouse in
(OK adapters needed) and run Linux on?

Yes phones with LCD projectors (bigger screens) are coming
and then you will have two projectors - one for the keyboard
and to be honest a virtual mouse (just moving your hand about)
is coming.

Will Puppy run on such a device?
Yes.
Already Woof is becoming a 'Pic and Mix' technology
thanks to Barry's usual excellence.

Deep Thought is being updated and crafted for ease of use
and end user appeal.

Puppy
Turns everyone Green . . .
Mr. Green

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aarf

Joined: 30 Aug 2007
Posts: 3620
Location: around the bend

PostPosted: Sat 28 Feb 2009, 07:30    Post subject:  

Lobster wrote:


For me being green is also about sustainability and efficiency.

Puppy
Turns everyone Green . . .
Mr. Green

sustainability!
there is enough geothermal energy in this planet to last so far into the future that earthlings will have long left for "greener" pastures in another galaxy before it is exhausted, even if it is used in the most inefficient manner available..

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