Puppy 4.2 - Trim the bloat

[amigo]

I always use the SciTE editor -it's around 900K uncompressed. Pretty good all-rounder with nice highlighting.

[big_bass]

Hey guys


I have focused on removing the fat from puppy for quite some time

fat meaning for me apps that are quickly dated
but are available as common pets

considering everything is burned on a live CD
no matter what you do expect it to be outdated quicky


most puppy users need a live CD
and for you to give them everything they need
and that said you will always be stuck with fat /bloat /outdated apps
but people have become used to that style


I personally yanked out all the guts of puppy
and used a different full drivers kernel
yanked out the initrd.gz and replaced it with a simple standardized one
threw out unionfs/aufs and have a real linux-style installed
"slaker-pup"

that has all the modules /firmware

but thats the real way to strip fat
and you end up using a lot less RAM 57MB used!
without removing programs typing #free in console
I have 218 MB 57MB used 160MB free

it shows 38 MB used using the hardware tool in the menu
so you cant trust that

but puppy users are not ready for a full linux
yet that they can modify everything
and remove any package they want

so .....

stuff it well like a Christmas stocking
you will win more new users

and puppy is good as a live CD
people expect that dont lose touch with that
imagine giving a newbee a live CD
they can just use and have fun with linux

I always catered to a different
nich of puppy users
those that like fat -free


iso size is not the big factor
the RAM used is what makes old machines fly or not
if you have alot of RAM you dont really notice
at 57MB used this flies

having a full kernel almost all modules supported
actully uses less RAM and a non layered
system saves alot more RAM too

thats a pic of 4.12 using the slackware 12.1 kernel
of course I had to do alot to build it
but now I have my own build scripts to upgrade to 12.2
when I decide

big_bass

[amigo]

Well hello Joe, whatcha know? Been meaning to email you and see what you are up to. Ahve you stopped using squashfs sfs files. I was gonna suggest you use ext3 loop-mounted partition images, or even ext2 types. That way you can easily enlarge or shrink them when needed and you'll always have compatibility with standard kernels no matter what distro.
Another trick I used with my amigo mobile XM was to create zisofs images of ceratin larger directories which don't need to be written to. For instance, if you have X installed outside of /usr/bin, like in /usr/X11/R7, you can create a zisofs image of the whole directory and then just mount that on that mount point. There may be aprt so X which yopu'd like to be writable -like the area for fonts, and X modules/drivers. You can keep these subdirs in a separate writable area and just have links to them inside the zisofs image. zisofs doesn't offer quite as much compression as cramfs or squashfs, but it lety you keep nearly all file attributes and lets you mix compressed and non-compressed files. Of course, decompression is transparent.
If you want even more flexible compression and are using squashfs patches, it might be better to use e2compr instead of squashfs as it allows you to have transparent compression -both read and write! on any regular ext2 partition or partition image.
Give you any ideas?
Another plus for ext2/ext3 is readability under MS$ -although if you choose e2compr you'll only have access with a patched linux kernel. It's still the only compressed fs that has easy, transparent, read-write functionality. There are inroads being made on others though.
Drop me a line if you have questions. I've been pretty busy producing a scratch-built i586-kiss-linux distro and I'm about to get even busier translating that work into an ARM (and possibly Xscale) port. The whole distro is built using src2pkg scripts. I've made a lot of improvements to src2pkg (and pkgtools) to produce slapt-get compatible packages -hint, hint. src2pkg can now produce 'tbz' or 'tlz' packages and produces enhanced database files for the new pkgtools and slapt-get.
I have pets of the new pkgtools and tar-1.13 which you might want to use -then the normal src2pkg can be installed using them. The tar is patched to work directly with pets without having to rename them, so it is handy for any other pet-based tools.
Let me know if you want any of the above materials.

[big_bass]

Hey Amigo (Gilbert)

always glad to hear from you

I will keep squashfs support as a tool because its just a pain not being able to read a *.sfs file the compression is fast and all the attributes are respected

but I will not be mounting them on a layered system

since I started using your src2pkg I wanted it to be part of puppy
and that kind of lead me to making puppy even
more slackware compatible on a larger scale
so I can have all the bells and whistles too

and I told you in person but also now in public
you have alot of experiance with packaging
and I am looking forward to use your newly improved src2pkg
and dont forget to put me on top of the list when you fininsh your new distro

I tried your amigo2 that you made in 1994? I think
and I really liked your work and alot has changed since then


keep in touch

my kids are on vacation starting today so I hope they let me work on the computer a bit

Joe

[zigbert]

We can save around 120 kb by using jebaJQ8's new icon-theme.
If it is converted to indexed mode it could be about 30 kb in total.
The Stardust theme or any other full-colored theme is minimum 150 kb.

[zigbert]

These packages uses the old gtkdialog2 (43kb)

/usr/sbin/connectwizard
/usr/sbin/dotpup
/usr/sbin/input-wizard
/usr/sbin/petget
/usr/sbin/pmount
/usr/sbin/pupget
/usr/sbin/puppyinstaller
/usr/sbin/pupscan
/usr/sbin/wakepup2
/usr/sbin/xorgwizard
/usr/sbin/xserverwizard

[lilleguard-liste]

I can see there are many opinions considering making Puppy Linux a stripped down "as small as can be system" (SMALL), or a stripped down 99% functional "ready to use system" (FUNCTIONAL).

I've been using Puppy Linux and reading Barrys blog and the forum now and then for about a year. Today (considering what I have learned the past year) I would prefer a SMALL unfinished system and add the .pets that fill my needs. But, I would never have started to use Puppy Linux if it hadn't been for the FUNCTIONAL Puppy 3.0 which I downloaded and booted in less than 50 seconds and knew how to use without having to read anything else than Barrys short welcome message.

IMHO i think the Puppy community (may I say "we"?) should develop both. If we make a SMALL puppy system and maintain the .sfs/.pet-packages, I assume it would be a <5min job to add the usual packages and remaster a FUNCTIONAL system. Of course to promote Puppy, we could always promote the FUNCTIONAL remaster and let the SMALL puppy hide in the background. Anyone who foresees any problems with such a solution?

Suggestion on how to TRIM puppy furthermore: except than basic html, I do not know anything about building computer programmes or operative systems, so forgive me if this is a stupid suggestion. Is it possible to get rid of nearly all preinstalled drivers in puppy (i dont know if they occupy a lot of space, but I know that puppy has a lot of them considering the great compatibility) so that the SMALL puppy system only boots into a text based OS and automatically runs a "detection programme" which analyzes your computer and builds a list of drivers needed for you to download and install to get a desktop environment...? These drivers could be easily accesible to download and install (with simple commands written in a step-by-step welcome message). In this way unnecessary drivers could be removed from the iso-file (wifi, sound, graphic card...).

Does anyone know approx how much free space we could achieve by doing this?

[J-Bob]

I can see there are many opinions considering making Puppy Linux a stripped down "as small as can be system" (SMALL), or a stripped down 99% functional "ready to use system" (FUNCTIONAL).

I've been using Puppy Linux and reading Barrys blog and the forum now and then for about a year. Today (considering what I have learned the past year) I would prefer a SMALL unfinished system and add the .pets that fill my needs. But, I would never have started to use Puppy Linux if it hadn't been for the FUNCTIONAL Puppy 3.0 which I downloaded and booted in less than 50 seconds and knew how to use without having to read anything else than Barrys short welcome message.

IMHO i think the Puppy community (may I say "we"?) should develop both. If we make a SMALL puppy system and maintain the .sfs/.pet-packages, I assume it would be a <5min job to add the usual packages and remaster a FUNCTIONAL system. Of course to promote Puppy, we could always promote the FUNCTIONAL remaster and let the SMALL puppy hide in the background. Anyone who foresees any problems with such a solution?

Suggestion on how to TRIM puppy furthermore: except than basic html, I do not know anything about building computer programmes or operative systems, so forgive me if this is a stupid suggestion. Is it possible to get rid of nearly all preinstalled drivers in puppy (i dont know if they occupy a lot of space, but I know that puppy has a lot of them considering the great compatibility) so that the SMALL puppy system only boots into a text based OS and automatically runs a "detection programme" which analyzes your computer and builds a list of drivers needed for you to download and install to get a desktop environment...? These drivers could be easily accesible to download and install (with simple commands written in a step-by-step welcome message). In this way unnecessary drivers could be removed from the iso-file (wifi, sound, graphic card...).

Does anyone know approx how much free space we could achieve by doing this?

well, there is puppy 4.1.2 barebones. you could get that and get addon sfs files. and if you want to make addons it's not too difficult.

just unpack your packages into a folder which would look like the "/" directory, when you installed these packages, but without everything else, just the packages filesystem.

then there is a script which you use to turn the folder into a sfs. i tried looking for it but cannot find it. but i'll get back to you if i figure out what command it is that needs to be used.

- J-Bob

[pa_mcclamrock]

I'm now using SkipStone for web browsing and Sylpheed for e-mail, both pretty lean and un-bloated; I wouldn't miss the SeaMonkey components if they were "optional" rather than "required." (I also wouldn't miss AbiWord, I find that TextMaker 2002 works better, but I'm not sure a push to boot AbiWord would have any chance of success.)

A few other things I don't think need to be part of the basic Puppy distro:

fotoxx, GQView (gpicview is all you need for a really basic image viewer)

notecase (almost 900 KB, and for what? Usage is not obvious to the ordinary user!)

Geany (over 1.2 MB is surely a lot more than you need for a basic, user-friendly text editor)

Grafburn (can it do anything that Pburn can't?)

Xsane (not needed by many users who either don't do scanning or, like me, use another program such as VueScan)

Osmo (version 0.2.0 is pretty limited in functionality, and versions after 0.2.0 won't run on Puppy because Puppy doesn't have dbus, which would make it quite noticeably more bloated and slower, according to what I've read). There's got to be a better way to keep track of appointments, things to do, and contacts.

ExpenseTracker (too obscure, no documentation)

Xcalc, Ycalc, xfontsel, xclipboard (inferior, outdated)

PPLOG (all that happens when I try to run it is I get a message saying I need the Hiawatha web server, whatever that is, to be running, and I figure why bother?)

But please do not get rid of the Stardust GTK theme--it looks great, and it can't add that much bloat!

David McClamrock

[aragon]

hi david,

some ideas/notes about your list:

- skipstone: i think an average user expects a 'full'-featured browser like seamonkey/firefox/opera

- sylpheed: i think you're right, but if we stay with seamonkey (for the moment), we could use it's component. i don't use a local mail-client any more (for some years now), so i have no personal experience.

- abiword: i think it's fixed (personal feeling)
- fotoxx: same opinion es you(see former entries in this post)
- gqview: it's not in 4.12?
- notecase: same opinion as you
- Geany: You're right it's big (personally i would miss it)
- Grafburn: it's not in 4.12?
- Xsane: i don't need it but maybe it's essential for a general-purpose-distro
- osmo: i don't need it but maybe it's essential for a general-purpose-distro
- ExpenseTracker: same opinion as you
- Xcalc, Ycalc, xfontsel, xclipboard: same opinion as you
- PPLOG: same opinion as you
- Stardust GTK theme: Maybe we will all have to pay a price for a lean system (it's 9.9 kb)


Some Additions:
- We have 2 Batch-Renamer, do we need 2?
- We have 2 Ripper, do we need 2?
- Do we need gwhere?
- We have 2 GUI and 2 Console Texteditors. That might be too much.
- CHMsee: Do we have any chm-File in standard-puppy?
- MtrTraceroute: I like it, but do we need it?
- Do we need a ftp-server or a webserver in a general-purpose-distro?

Once again, i don't want a barebones-system. But there are some actual posts about user-friendlyness, and unclutter the system is a part of this (my opinion!).

An example:
A new user wants to rip an audio-cd. which ripper should he use and why? he does not know. maybe one of us knows. maybe. the user wants to rip a cd, thats it. he does not want to make a decision. a project leader/we/an expert group/a dictator has to decide which is the best ripper for puppy.

cheers
aragon

[WhoDo]

A few other things I don't think need to be part of the basic Puppy distro:

fotoxx, GQView (gpicview is all you need for a really basic image viewer)

Agreed. Already done for 4.2

notecase (almost 900 KB, and for what? Usage is not obvious to the ordinary user!)

Agreed. Already out of 4.2

Geany (over 1.2 MB is surely a lot more than you need for a basic, user-friendly text editor)

Disagree. Geany is the best all-purpose editor for script programmers and basic text documents alike.

Grafburn (can it do anything that Pburn can't?)

Agreed. Already out.

Xsane (not needed by many users who either don't do scanning or, like me, use another program such as VueScan)

Perhaps, but should be in as basic support in an all-around package.

Osmo (version 0.2.0 is pretty limited in functionality, and versions after 0.2.0 won't run on Puppy because Puppy doesn't have dbus, which would make it quite noticeably more bloated and slower, according to what I've read). There's got to be a better way to keep track of appointments, things to do, and contacts.

If you find the "better way", let me know.

ExpenseTracker (too obscure, no documentation)

Agreed. Already removed in 4.2

Xcalc, Ycalc, xfontsel, xclipboard (inferior, outdated)

Agreed, except for xfontsel. Xcalc and Ycalc already out. Looking at Parcellite in lieu of Glipper. Jury still out.

PPLOG (all that happens when I try to run it is I get a message saying I need the Hiawatha web server, whatever that is, to be running, and I figure why bother?)

Yes, not for the average user BUT it does give Puppy that "Wow" factor with those using the bigger distros. Undecided at this stage but PPLOG and Hiawatha out would save a bit.

But please do not get rid of the Stardust GTK theme--it looks great, and it can't add that much bloat!

Nope. Stardust is in. At the moment my pre-alphas are building at 96Mb with all the Pwidgets/conky/eye candy stuff included. We can do better, but I haven't finished yet!

[pa_mcclamrock]

Osmo (version 0.2.0 is pretty limited in functionality, and versions after 0.2.0 won't run on Puppy because Puppy doesn't have dbus, which would make it quite noticeably more bloated and slower, according to what I've read). There's got to be a better way to keep track of appointments, things to do, and contacts.

If you find the "better way", let me know.

I'm working on it. It's called "WISH HoneyDo." I've already written programs that I use instead of Geany (WISH Supernotepad), HomeBank (WISH Checkbook), ROX-Filer (WISH File Rusher), and Pburn, except for DVDs (WISH CD-Writer). Presumably they won't go into the basic Puppy distro, though, because they require Tcl and Tk (which almost every other Linux distribution has included since time immemorial, so to speak), and a mere 4 MB for these interpreters is thought to be too much for Puppy's delicate under-100-MB constitution.

PPLOG (all that happens when I try to run it is I get a message saying I need the Hiawatha web server, whatever that is, to be running, and I figure why bother?)

Yes, not for the average user BUT it does give Puppy that "Wow" factor with those using the bigger distros. Undecided at this stage but PPLOG and Hiawatha out would save a bit.

They could still get the "Wow" factor after installing the packages, and any big-distro users are sure to look into what add-on packages are available for Puppy.

David McClamrock

[aragon]

Yes, not for the average user BUT it does give Puppy that "Wow" factor with those using the bigger distros. Undecided at this stage but PPLOG and Hiawatha out would save a bit.

WhoDo, i hope that we will newer come to a situation where PPLOG is a Wow-faktor for puppy (my opinion)

cheers
aragon

[tlchost]

An example:
A new user wants to rip an audio-cd. which ripper should he use and why? he does not know. maybe one of us knows. maybe. the user wants to rip a cd, thats it. he does not want to make a decision. a project leader/we/an expert group/a dictator has to decide which is the best ripper for puppy.

Perhaps one approach would be to have a minimal functional version....
One that has enough stuff for the new user to get up and running with something like:
Web Browser
Email Client
Network, including wireless
Word Processing
Printer support
Audio/Video player
CD/DVD burner
Remastering option

Now the "tricky part"....addins for dummys. Some folks, myself included, don't want, don't have the time, don't have the skills to run around checking dependencies....so for we lazy, challenged,unskilled folks, one needs to have a really simple installer (procedure).

It also follows that there needs to be a simple way to uninstall any of the above.

I believe that if a non-geek, non-tekkie version of Puppy could be created, a large number of new users would be happy users.

I work with senior citizens(I are one)...and I have yet to find one who wants to be an OS freak, needs the latest bleeding edge technology and understands/cares about the Linux versus other systems debate. They simply want a way to use a computer to do things that is simple and will not require them to purchase expensive systems.

Thom

[WhoDo]

Perhaps one approach would be to have a minimal functional version....
One that has enough stuff for the new user to get up and running with something like:
Web Browser
Email Client
Network, including wireless
Word Processing
Printer support
Audio/Video player
CD/DVD burner
Remastering option

Now the "tricky part"....addins for dummys. Some folks, myself included, don't want, don't have the time, don't have the skills to run around checking dependencies....so for we lazy, challenged,unskilled folks, one needs to have a really simple installer (procedure).

It also follows that there needs to be a simple way to uninstall any of the above.

I agree with your approach and requirements. That is why ttuuxxx's modified package manager is in 4.2 - it has automatic dependency checking, too.

To your list I would add:
Spreadsheet - we don't all need them, but many do
Organiser - some of us are both old AND still working
Graphics program - hey, even oldies like us have hobbies
Camera download - for grabbing piccies of the grandkids
File finder - where did I put those piccies again?
Text editor/viewer - gotta read those instructions from time to time

We'll get there; maybe sooner than anyone thinks, too!

[Lobster]

May have suggested this before . . .
A viable alternative to Composer?
We could have an off-line html page with the javascript . . .
http://www.openwebware.com/download.shtml

[ttuuxxx]

May have suggested this before . . .
A viable alternative to Composer?
We could have an off-line html page with the javascript . . .
http://www.openwebware.com/download.shtml

Hi lobster I checked out that program, you need to add code to a page before you can even run it, every page you need to add the code to,

The seamonkey package I built for 4.2 does have composer in it already, if people want a better choice then they can use kompozer, its the only currently developed wysiwyg from mozilla, gone are NVU & composer, composer is being replaced with kompozer in the near future in the seamonkey suite, which would be nice but I hope it doesn't over inflate the size.

I've been trying to build a xinha plugin for seamonkey today, I'll keep ya informed how it tuns out
ttuuxxx

[Lobster]

xinha looks better - maybe smaller and better than composer too . . .
look forward to hearing how you get on
http://xinha.raimundmeyer.de/x_examples ... ample.html

[ttuuxxx]

xinha looks better - maybe smaller and better than composer too . . .
look forward to hearing how you get on
http://xinha.raimundmeyer.de/x_examples ... ample.html

Yes I've used xinha many times in the past couple of years and for the size of it, its outstanding sure it isn't kompozer but its 1/10 the size. If you have firefox or firepup handy just give it a shot. Meanwhile I'll see about adapting it. Also fireftp is my other choice for a ftp browser plugin that works really well on firefox, but I do like the way I set up gftp bookmarks with puppy direct link to ibiblio for downloads.
ttuuxxx

[01micko]

Wallpapers puppy users.

Plenty to be trimmed there.

Take a look in the 'Eycandy|Puppy Wallpapers' thread...