Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Fri 22 Aug 2014, 03:51
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects » Localization Project
Is Full Internationalization Puppy Possible?
Moderators: Lobster, MU, raffy
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
Page 1 of 1 [12 Posts]  
Author Message
Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Fri 12 Dec 2008, 17:27    Post subject:  Is Full Internationalization Puppy Possible?
Subject description: From an idea elewhere
 

The Origin of this idea is here

droope wrote:
Aitch wrote:
droope

I've often posted requests for full internationalisation

To me it's one of what could be puppy's strong points, as we have so much of the globe covered already

Just some devs keep forgetting Embarassed

Keep pushing it, please Wink

Aitch Smile

@Aitch, I agree, internationalization is an important matter for puppy. I think that internaliozations are available in other distros and puppy should not be left behind.

I don't know if it is important for puppy itself, but it is very important for a few blokes that need puppy in their languaje in order to learn linux/computing.

I can think of a puppylinux.org website that offers translation to many languajes in form of .pets!

How nice would that be! One click to have your whole OS translated Smile

Cheers.,
droope


http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=34201&start=225

Subsequently, esmourguit posted
Quote:
Here is a french localized pet for Puppy 4.1.


Then Droope posted

droope wrote:
"Puppy en español" for Aitch Wink

Link
Thread

¿How about a wiki page to get started?
I'll contact a guy who is making a greek linux, and see if he would do a .pet file with all his translations.


I'm not very good at wiki things, nor languages, though assisted, where possible, research for 41 language puppy, but feel this is of fundamental importance

The underlying question is, can Puppy be fully/globally internationalised?

Is there any fully international OS, at all?

Is it possible, or are we stuck with the localization project's 5 pagesx30 threads ?

Is it possible to pull this together?

Maybe it would need to be an SFS?

Can someone give a reason why it WON'T work?

Any offers of help?

Lobster, publicity/Wiki, please?

Aitch Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
maddox

Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 453
Location: sometimes in France

PostPosted: Fri 12 Dec 2008, 19:41    Post subject:  

Hi Aitch,
I'd love an International Puppy.
I'm not a great programmer (beginner), but BarryK's scripts have very handy comments at strategic places to help those who WANT to learn.

So I've been helping translate Toutou (french Puppy).
Our big probs are UTF-8, localisations and some progs/scripts need ISO-8859-1 encoding for french accents while others need UTF-8 to display french accents correctly.
A simple example : "xmessage" needs iso-8859-1 encoding for french accents while "Xdialog" needs utf-8
and what do you do with a script that contains both ? .. i.e. bootmanager
All binarys need international support compiled in !

Is the kernel international enabled ? The nls_utf_8.ko.gz isn't included in "initrd.gz" nor in Puppy.
The foreign users can't select their correct kbd at Puppy boot time (just typing "puppy pfix=ram" can be hell -> qwerty/qwertz/azerty...)
The specific language xx_xx.uft-8 locale isn't included either, but this is language specific.

On another note, most translators have very limited (non existant) script understanding but are very willing to do the translations.

"esmourguit" uses "po/mo" files that he finds on the net (maybe not the latest version)
But for this to function, the programmers have to do some extra work : use variables in the script and the variables contain the text to translate -> "po" file
They (or the team) are responsible for keeping the "po" file updated for newer versions of the prog !
the translators "translate" the specific language "po" file and submit it for approval.

I probally posted in the wrong topic.. sorry
.. but the heading was exactly what was needed.
.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
MU


Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 13642
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Sat 13 Dec 2008, 01:01    Post subject:  

Kernel 2.6.27 uses UTF by default.
I had to modify Muppys init scripts when I upgraded from 2.6.21.7 from iso-code to 2.6.27 with utf8.

You can get a Puppy with that Kernel here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=34341

Maybe also Puppys 2.6.25 uses UTF, I did not check that yet.
Xmessage:
replace it with a symlink to gxmessage.

Then you can display UTF like this:
xmessage -encoding UTF-8 "äöü"

Mark

_________________
my recommended links
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec 2008, 06:49    Post subject:  

Thanks maddox, I wasn't aware of this ISO-8859-1 encoding anomaly

Mu, I think your Muppy is probably the best production semi international puppy, & was wondering if the work you have already done with German could be a model for others? Have you experience of any accent anomaly as maddox says?

However, I am aware of the French/Russian/Japanese/Hacao_Vietnamese puppies also, as well as the 41 language Puppy, which uses SCIM or SCIM Bridge to get international characters up

Do you know if all language texts will work with SCIM Bridge?
Is this the common UTF8 solution, for accents & boot keyboard availability??

I believe full internationalisation can be broken down to:-

1 Keyboard selection at boot/(kernel issues?)
2 Character text display in all programs/editors
3 Translations of scripts within Puppy core
4 Translation of Howto / Help files
5 Correct display of browser fonts including flash/browser stability
6 Internationalised Psip/comms progs

Is there anything else? Any other hurdle?

What translation problems still remain, as maybe volunteers can be found, here?

How are Greek, Dutch & Spanish doing? Any others?

See this list

http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki/multi-lingual-puppy/language-chooser/some-localisations

It would be good if people who already have one language characterset/translation working, could maybe try to see
if their working version can be modified to co-exist with another language

e.g. Muppy + Toutou
Russian + German
Toutou + Russian
Vietnamese + Japanese

or something similar/crossed over....?

I realise this is a big leap, and many people are just happy too get Puppy working at all, however, anyone feels like experimenting......?

Please post any results/anomalies/problems, and let's see if this is possible

Raffy, Magerlap, Nyu, Irihapeti, Béèm, anyone else, [sorry if I missed you] any ideas/input?

Lobster, can you assist? Is this worth a new Wiki page, yet? ....or maybe just add something here?

http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki/multi-lingual-puppy

[I see this as a step towards St Bernard /Rescue Pup, for anyone interested...]

MU's excellent 76 db Dictionary, for people not aware of it,
... can this be made into an SFS? For incorporation, Mark?

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=7976


This may be a leap of faith, but it's Xmas, so GoodWill to all Good [International] Puppians [do bad ones really exist?]

Here's one I like.. Wink



Courtesy: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22050638-2,00.html

......Well, someone has to push the boat on this one, & now I did Wink


Aitch Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
magerlab

Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 731

PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec 2008, 09:48    Post subject:  

there's a bunch of material that russian puppy team compiled on russification

we even had to walk through almost the whole linux-in-russian-problems ourselves
and have almost 100% russian puppy( puppyrus) based on puppy 3-4

but the first thing is
UTF-8 must be used!!!!
and surprisingly when i booted new unnamed pupplet(made by wow) with ....27 kernel
i saw unicode locales
also it's the first puppy where usb-pen drive with russian filenames with vfat fs( from windoze) is mounted correctly in pcmanfm

the second thing is to make all puppy scripts support gettext
unless we need to rewrite them

_________________
skype: desafimager
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
magerlab

Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Posts: 731

PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec 2008, 09:57    Post subject:  

i forgot...
we can start with having menus and all the menu entires in different languages
that's very easy to do but it needs to be gathered in one place and supervised

i made a basic rusiian pack for puppy 4.1 ( only for gui, not scripts)

and i think also that it's better to have different lang packs than having all the stuff in one
( but menu can be shared through packs)

_________________
skype: desafimager
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2232

PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec 2008, 10:05    Post subject:  

Using gettext or xgettext in the scripts is the only reasonable thing to do. That way, the text to be translated is not completely mixed in with the actual code. This would mean using bash as the script language as it can work with LC variables.
This is very important and critical because most of what makes puppy Puppy, is done with scripts. Still, there are probably many of the commonly-used Puppy binary programs which lack internationalization. Working on adding i18n support to these programs would make a good project for anyone who wants to get their feet wet with C and/or C++ coding, without having to first become a master. Adding the i18n support is not usually too difficult and is completely separate from doing the actual translations. The same is true for using gettext in scripts -adding support for gettext is a separate task from actually translating.

Here's a link to a basic bash/i18n howto:
http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/doc/UNIX/BASH_Guide/localization.html
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sun 14 Dec 2008, 10:23    Post subject:  

Quote:
i forgot...
we can start with having menus and all the menu entires in different languages that's very easy to do but it needs to be gathered in one place and supervised


part reason for the thread...

Quote:
and i think also that it's better to have different lang packs than having all the stuff in one
( but menu can be shared through packs)


I think SFSs are the way this is likely headed, as SFS seems favoured as add-ons for 'barebones type' base

I'd just like to see dev discussion steered towards Internationalisation
- IMHO Puppy needs Globalizing Wink [It's been 'adopted&adapted' by the Chinese already Very Happy]

Thanks for your input, great work on the Russian Puppy team

amigo - W3 i18n, thanks

http://www.w3.org/International/

gettext in dingo, can it be included in earlier puppys, or as a .pet?

http://www.puppylinux.com/blog/?viewDetailed=00012

ubuntu gettext/language thread ideas, for anyone interested

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=488412

thanks, guys

Aitch Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
maddox

Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 453
Location: sometimes in France

PostPosted: Tue 16 Dec 2008, 22:58    Post subject:  

The "petget manager" and the pet's displayed in the download list needs to be International too (no language barrier if at all possible).
A user might be multi-lingual, and prefer to install a different language pet instead of using the current locale ..
i.e: a french user, but they prefer to install certain pet's in english or another favorite language...
.. This implies a strict compliance on how to create/translate a pet and use the correct encoding for the desired language,
and opening up the petget manager to translated pet's.

We've translated quite a number of "pet's" , so how do we integrate these language/version specific pets ?
A language specific site/link to download pet's might be an idea.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
straypup

Joined: 03 Feb 2008
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Sun 31 May 2009, 22:45    Post subject: Ideas  

Sorry for such a late post, but has anyone checked out the latest Firefox. Just downloaded the latest version in Thai and installed on 4.21 Final, also installed Thai unicode fonts, and SCIM (SCIM-bridge method) for my wife. Everything seems to be working, Firefox even selects native Thai sites. Just an idea of how to get basic internationalization started.
stray
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sun 29 Nov 2009, 23:44    Post subject:  

bump

Just found this very useful link

http://roscidus.com/desktop/Internationalisation

Quote:
Why does ROX-Filer complain that my filenames aren't UTF-8?

In the past, filenames have been stored using the local character set. This means that you can't send a file to someone in a different locale or have two files from different character sets on your system at once.

Therefore, there is a general move over to the UTF-8 encoding (which can represent all characters in a single encoding). Many applications (not just ROX ones) now assume that your filenames are UTF-8 and will complain if not. ROX-Filer displays names not in UTF-8 in red.

You can specify a fall-back encoding by setting the CHARSET environment variable. Use something like this to test it (-n forces a new copy of the filer to start):

CHARSET=iso-8859-2 rox -n

A better solution for the future is to convert your filenames to UTF-8 (use the filer's Rename box to convert individual files, or the iconv utility for mass conversion). You can use UTF-8 names from the shell by setting LANG, for example:

LANG=en_GB.UTF-8 xterm

For more information, see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/unicode.html


see also

Quote:
How do I translate a program into another language?

If the program already supports translations, you can just copy an existing translation (eg, copy Messages/fr.po as Messages/de.po). Edit the file in your favourite text editor, then run ./dist to generate the output .gmo file and restart the application.


more

http://roscidus.com/desktop/Internationalisation

Aitch Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
L18L

Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 2505
Location: Burghaslach, Germany somewhere also known as "Hosla"

PostPosted: Sun 18 Mar 2012, 06:45    Post subject: Is Full Internationalization Puppy Possible?
Subject description: woof2 momanager
 

Aitch wrote:
...bump...

bump
http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=02751 Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 1 [12 Posts]  
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects » Localization Project
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.1018s ][ Queries: 12 (0.0093s) ][ GZIP on ]