4.2 Meeting - Here

[HairyWill]

@ttuuxx
I've got nothing against you personally, please do not misunderstand my intentions.

We are in agreement about the gxine problem.

Because of the problems I know of with jwm, I do not have strong feelings about which window manager should be default and would not make a great deal of effort to push either way.

I do however want to make sure that the matter is debated with full knowledge and am still interested to know what you mean specifically by "generally better". I am interested to know if there any jwm problems or icewm benefits that are not stated specifically here.

[wanderer]

this is really a question

if you use the unleashed system
with pets sfs etc

is there really a problem
with which application
a person prefers
window manager / browser etc
couldn't they all just be made into pets or sfs

the official release puplet or community edition
is really a tribute to the individual guy/guys
who put in the work and expertise to create it

i think most people would want to tweak something or other
just a little to suit their fancy

of course everything would have to be made compatible
for each release

by the way thank you
to Barry K
and all you guys
who are actually doing the work
organizing and building
this is really a great community

wanderer

[Pizzasgood]

JWM does have a feature that I consider Very Handy, along with another I like a lot. You can scroll the mouse wheel on the desktop to change workspaces. IceWM doesn't let you do that. I've considered seeing if I could hack IceWM to add that, but never got around to it. The other feature I like is similar: you can scroll the title-bar to roll up a window. IceWM requires a double-middle-click, IIRC.

The main thing I like about IceWM is the looks. With JWM 2, this is not as big of a deal. The old version was ugly. The latest actually looks half decent. Particularly if you give the title-bar color and a nice little gradient.

IceWM's themes are cool, but that's fluff. As long as we have something that looks reasonable, we're fine.

An advantage that IceWM does have is that it doesn't require restarting the WM to update the menu. On the other hand, that may slow down the menu loading. I haven't done a comparison though, so not sure.


IMHO, JWM is more fitting with the Puppy mentality. IceWM users would probably download a new theme anyways, so downloading IceWM itself isn't that big of a deal.

Changing WM is trivial. In fact, the packager could have the pinstall script offer to set it as the default WM automatically. Key word: offer. Don't want it to just automatically change things. If that same package were to be added to an unleashed tree, you should also ensure that it only prompts if being installed on a running system, and not when Unleashed runs the pinstall scripts.

[alienjeff]

... if you ever seen my my default themes in 3.0.2 with the puppy paws to close pages and golden dog bones to lower or minimize pages

I can't say I remember ever "seening" them.

However, when I saw those the first thing that came to mind was, "Who the !*^%#@ designed this theme? Fisher-Price?

Thats truly unique to puppy and took for ever to design and figure out.

Remember that "unique" is not synonymous with "good" or "improved."

I believe you meant "forever." And I assume you were speaking metaphorically, as if they literally took "for ever," you'd still be working on them, wouldn't you?

All that aside, they're fluff. Ask yourself does the form follow function?

I'll leave you with this: I'm running Gxine 0.5.903-1 using xine-lib 1.1.16, built with 1.1.14 under JWM V2.0.1 and have no problem running full-screen. This is with Arch Linux on a dual-Pentium III box.

Though running Puppy 2.12 on a 233-MHz Pentium II Gateway laptop, Gxine runs full-screen just fine, too.

So please stop kicking Joe Wingbermuehle in the groin, mmmkay?

[WhoDo]

IMHO, JWM is more fitting with the Puppy mentality. IceWM users would probably download a new theme anyways, so downloading IceWM itself isn't that big of a deal.

Ok, this is exactly what I didn't want ... a debate about what would be the default WM.

Let me state from the outset, JWM will be the default WM in Puppy 4.2 - no debate.

I thought about including IceWM as a second WM, only IF it could be made small enough to justify that, because of the ease with which it can be made to look like Window$. It's a usability thing for refugees; nothing more.

If you think of it that way, and realise that I'm not trying to foist EZpup onto the standard package, then you may just see why I suggested it as a possibility for a second included WM. It could also let relatively inexperienced users quickly get into a GUI interface to fix whatever might have been broken at the last experiment in JWM. Just a thought.

@Zigbert - your point about available space is well made. I have no intention of leaving out valuable functionality to gain a second WM. I hope that puts your mind at ease.

What you have given Puppy is much needed breathing space, in terms of full GUI functionality at an exceptionally low cost in space. That is definitely the Puppy ethos and I have no intention of changing that. Please rest easy on that score.

Cheers.

[raffy]

Re the boot prompt, I agree with the suggestion to simplify it, say "Press F2 for advanced options". Related to this, I've made remasters that essentially say "Press i then ENTER to install Puppy or do system maintenance" (else startup is normal, it will use a save file). isolinux.cfg should be easy to change along this idea.

Re JWM, it is really small and functional, so Will's effort to update it is welcome. However, Michael Barnes in his article at desktoplinux.com tells the story that employees who initially find Linux "difficult" to use very quickly relaxed upon seeing a familiar desktop theme. This implies that we'll have to make the change of desktop appearance (to Win-like) more prominent in the menus.

Also, over at the "formal organization" thread, technosaurus is describing the Puppy desktop. This is another possible desktop/theme that can be offered in the menu.

May I also mention the possibility of trimming the menus to show only the most-used applications? Or have "simple" and "full" menus as options in the first boot (the default can be set as "simple"in syslinux.cfg or isolinux.cfg). Of course, if there are really very few applications in the ISO, then there is no other option but "simple", and no parameter is needed.

[alienjeff]

Re JWM, it is really small and functional, so Will's effort to update it is welcome. However, Michael Barnes in his article at desktoplinux.com tells the story that employees who initially find Linux "difficult" to use very quickly relaxed upon seeing a familiar desktop theme. This implies that we'll have to make the change of desktop appearance (to Win-like) more prominent in the menus.

Implies? Have to make the change?

Why?

Because Michael Barnes's "story" - true or otherwise - in an article at desktoplinux.com?

Because some refugees from Windows experience some initial anxiety?

Anxiety addressed below:


























By the proposed philosophy, why don't you just strip this OS down to the desktop and just have one, big, "familiar" icon: say, uh ... the Microsoft flag furled from the top of a puppy's tail.

Click the icon and it opens Wine! Then Barnes's gun shy users can run all their "familiar" Windows apps.

And think how much you can trim the distro down! You might even come close to SliTaz in ISO size (though NEVER come close to SliTaz excellence in documentation).

[cthisbear]

" Well Hairy lately you've shown that you are generally against
anything that I say, If its a personal vendetta "

/////////////

ttuuxxx:

I am sure that deep down you are a nice enough bloke.
I am in fact certain of it.

I for one love your enthusiasm.
And you have without a doubt put out some great releases.

But when you keep putting your head in the mouths
of lions, eventually you may have a nasty experience.

Now I know this is coming from Mr Sarcastic here.
I am only on L Plates 4 Niceness.....
I don't usually discriminate.........I hate everybody.

But cool down.
Back off from the precipice.

Opinions here are OK.
Disagreements are OK as well.
Arguments, hurt feelings are OK.
Bluntness even.
And I'm all for tantrums.
Never put me under a car for more than 5 minutes.
A humiliating and terrifying event for anyone around me.

But let us return to Puppy.

After all of the above, we should declare that
our project is generally for a Nobler Cause.
A little bit of feel good about ourselves.
Maybe some thanks and praise.

We are doing it better than Gates...Bullmer and Jobs.
So we perservere, we are not a team of champions,
we are are champion team.
Old St George Leagues Club saying?

Maybe our newspaper pal gal....Cattylyn Martin
will write a glowing appraisal of our beloved distro.
I've spoilt the moment now haven't I?

So maybe before you post a less than positive memo here,
you might go and look at this vid....
have a scream, loosen the bile...
and then come back to join us in the Good fight.

And no....my suggestions are for others...never moi.

Not happy Jan.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=2akt3P8ltLM

::::::::::::
WhoDo:

I just want puppy to boot up and work.
Click the Icon = works mentality.

But why can't we put 2 fish in the pond.
Didn't Mu in one of his first Muppy releases allow you
to boot the full version....German if you wanted it...
and then the smaller or bigger Muppy?

If we couln't do that....why not 2 dogs out of
the same kennel.
Old Fido....trusty...from our lineage of great past releases,
and a ttuuxxxiated version with some bells and whistles,
but just a few more megs.....5 at the most.

Everybody is happy.
We don't have to be fast...have a date set out in stone.
I really think that it is a way to go.
And the crapola and name calling ends.
A team at Bathurst runs 2 cars.
If one is the more successful, even the winner..
the glory still goes to the team.
Every driver sets up his car differently...even the seat.

Chris.

[Lobster]

WhoDo do you have some preliminary idea of the wish list we are aiming towards?

Do you intend to use Zigberts scheme and maybe cut down/out unpopular eye-candy?
Is there a minimum of 'certain to be in 4.2' options yet?

[WhoDo]

WhoDo:
I just want puppy to boot up and work.
Click the Icon = works mentality.

I'm looking at this as an opportunity to show Barry that we can turn out a "standard" Puppy in the same way he does ... well almost, anyway. I don't want to complicate that objective with a whole slew of newer, bigger, better, brighter ideas. Those have their place, certainly, but only after we prove we can build the base version properly.

I'm hoping people will see the sense in that approach as a first step to weaning ourselves of our total dependence on Barry. That doesn't mean we can't be a little "inventive"; after all, that's part of Barry's approach to constant and continuous improvement. If you don't progress, you'll get left behind, so to speak.

That said, it should be in baby steps at first. Too much change too quickly is unsettling for those who are used to Barry's way - especially the code contributors who happily play away in the background creating the gems that go to make up modern Puppy. We don't want that. There has been enough panic already to last us at least two or three versions, IMHO.

Cheers, mate.

[WhoDo]

WhoDo do you have some preliminary idea of the wish list we are aiming towards?

Only the basic list you used for the wiki page, Ed. I'm hoping that people will either collect the ideas touted here, or enter their ideas directly in the wiki page. Just because an idea is there doesn't mean it will go in, but it does give our coders an opportunity see what people are looking for.

Do you intend to use Zigberts scheme and maybe cut down/out unpopular eye-candy?

What "unpopular eye candy" is there in 4.1? Apart from the feeling that the default wallpaper needs to be either more Aussie or Puppy related, aren't we generally happy with the current look and feel of 4.1?

Is there a minimum of 'certain to be in 4.2' options yet?

I see no fundamental changes from 4.1.1, except maybe version updates, bug fixes, a bit of polish here and there on the usability front, etc. I haven't yet seen any viable alternatives to the current base set of applications - Abiword, Gnumeric, Seamonkey, Osmo, etc. I might try to squeeze in Portabase, since we have no small, easy-to-use database as standard. Other than that, I'm open to reasonable suggestions within the 84Mb - 90Mb weight range of the standard Dingo.

I should also point out that as this is Dingo and not Lassie, or Chihuahua. I'm not looking to add back Qt or tcl/tk apps either. Barry took those out to sharpen our focus for Dingo, and I'm keen to keep 4.2 on that track. If the community sees the need for later versions, we can consider that then. At the moment the challenge is simply to reproduce a Barry-standard Dingo release. That ought to be a monumental enough task for anyone. It certainly is for me!

[Pizzasgood]

Two isos just makes things more complicated. Rather than making one that's only slightly different, either go all the way and make one that is significantly different (which ttuuxxx is already doing with 5.x) or just make a smaller add on package.

Puppy has a remaster script for a reason.



I think Lobster meant removing unpopular eye-candy from Zigbert's theme, if it were used (i.e. the analog clock widget, and the supposedly scary red colors)

[ttuuxxx]

Something to think about whodo is
wxgtk is extremley useful, SDL is really small compared to wxgtk and should be in by default , The future looks like it will be Qt applications, But the Qt releases that barry did in past were too stripped down and things just didn't work right untill I compiled qt4 and found out puppy was missing a lot of the parts. I looked at the qt4-4.3.2 in the puppy package manager and also the Qt parts in the devx, together they still couldn't get things like Musescore to work. Only once I compiled QT4 did Musescore actually work with all the proper images, what was missing from barry's stripped down versions was the plugins. I wish he didn't do that, It wasted about 20hrs of my time trying to get it work plus about 5 other people who tried.
If we are going to make a repo or something like that, Things like qt could be broken into different parts, like webkit etc.
But you must be able to offer a complete packages to people and not give them false hope.
ttuuxxx

[WhoDo]

I think Lobster meant removing unpopular eye-candy from Zigbert's theme, if it were used (i.e. the analog clock widget, and the supposedly scary red colors)

Oh ... kay. I like the clock, but I doubt we could use the gdesklets version in a standard Puppy based purely on size. Maybe we could have one if we used MU's Gtkbasic003 version instead? That has a size penalty too. I don't know that it's that important really.

The red version of Zigbert's theme is probably a little too different for a standard Puppy. I've suggested he consider a blue or green version instead. I certainly like the wallpaper but I'm not committing to anything there yet. There are bigger fish to fry IMHO.

[WhoDo]

Something to think about whodo is
wxgtk is extremley useful, SDL is really small compared to wxgtk and should be in by default.

Ok, so add it to the wish list on the wiki and we'll see. If you post suggestions for inclusion, don't forget to post an estimate of their size for the ISO and unpacked. That will help in the decision-making process.

[ttuuxxx]

I think Lobster meant removing unpopular eye-candy from Zigbert's theme, if it were used (i.e. the analog clock widget, and the supposedly scary red colors)

Oh ... kay. I like the clock, but I doubt we could use the gdesklets version in a standard Puppy based purely on size. Maybe we could have one if we used MU's Gtkbasic003 version instead? That has a size penalty too. I don't know that it's that important really.

The red version of Zigbert's theme is probably a little too different for a standard Puppy. I've suggested he consider a blue or green version instead. I certainly like the wallpaper but I'm not committing to anything there yet. There are bigger fish to fry IMHO.

I agree about the background its really nice and professional & modern looking. I would like to see it as default desktop background
The round clock is nice also as long as it doesn't consume much resources and total package size has to really small. Since its just added eyecandy. but it does give puppy that je ne sais quoi look.lol
ttuuxxx

[raffy]

Implies? Have to make the change?

The suggestion was mainly about making the desktop appearance choices more prominent in the menus. The question of which WM goes in by default (and the other left as pet) is being debated, so the suggestion could help.

[Lobster]

There are bigger fish to fry IMHO

which are the big fish?

[Lobster with frying pan at the ready . . .]

[WhoDo]

There are bigger fish to fry IMHO

which are the big fish?
[Lobster with frying pan at the ready . . .]

Boot options on first boot, included driver sets, which printing system is most reliable, control panel, Portabase in or out, etc. etc. Some of those fish are big enough to choke any Lobster!

[ttuuxxx]

There are bigger fish to fry IMHO

which are the big fish?
[Lobster with frying pan at the ready . . .]

Boot options on first boot, included driver sets, which printing system is most reliable, control panel, Portabase in or out, etc. etc. Some of those fish are big enough to choke any Lobster!

well as the Control panel goes, you'll have to get onto user dvw86
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 50&t=15931
I always figured that it could be possible to make such a system using a browser without controls like gtkmoz borderless, it would look like a regular application but would be html driven, would make the code very small in kb's. I was doing something similar with my next ttuuxxxTV. But I haven't got the time with everything else I'm doing at the moment to start another large task. any takers?
ttuuxxx