Puppy 5.0 "New Hope"

[ttuuxxx]

Well the name doesn't have to be written in stone. It was the feeling I was getting thinking about it. I've been talking to numerous developers via email and well The clock is ticking and we are asleep at the wheel.

There has been talk about 4.2 and now could be the time to talk about 5.0

These are just ideas off that I received from members of the forum.
Puppy was and is Barry's baby that he nurtured and raised to stand on its on own feet. With that said it could be time for a change to show the world eg distrowatch and other software reviewers that we can and will make it on our own.

We need 1 developer to step and and take over building the base, ASAP! I'm getting that response from users and developers. If we do not have someone who is capable or has time to do it, we could advertise at places like distrowatch.

Puppy 5.0 should follow what barry is planning, which is to have it compatible with a big brother distro and his pick is the same as mine "Ubuntu Intrepid" If we could adapt our package manager to use Ubuntu Intrepid repo that would be excellent. No fuss no muss
Keep it under 100MB

This might be the only time that could use Firefox 2.17 the latest release which came out maybe 2 weeks ago. Since the 3.0 series is problematic for puppy and probably won't ever be used in puppy main release, It would really give use some great reviews. Plus it works very well with puppy. It could be the last chance to ever use Firefox with a puppy main release.

Gxine has had issues ever since the 3.0 series and needs to be changed, I have proven that VLC takes lower resources, I've even made a 4-5 MB QT4 version but it has issues that I'm working on, It would be nice if we had a team of developers to work on 1 large project like VLC, I had 41 pet packages I compiled up to build it. Talk about devotion, Plus I have compiling issues with ffmpeg and could use some help.

The default Calculators need to be axed and replaced with the linux norm "Galculator" and keep gmeasures

The Control Panel that was started and never finished needs to restarted and finished

The Networking and Wifi needs continuous updates, maybe some sort of puppy live update system could be built with a revert back option.

More screen resolutions needed to be add for newer tiny pc's

Maybe 2 versions of puppy xorg with mesa for newer pc's and xvesa for older pc's

Have a look at our libs like sdl Libs, they are really tiny why not included them? maybe some other small libs.What I was thinking is that if we are staying under 100mb and the release is 92MB why not add in Gimp and Inkscape and maybe some filler libs? and bring it up to 99 or 100MB?

Maybe for this release remove JWM and replace it with a lite icewm package, maybe the one I made up for 4.0 it also replaces 86 default icons and its only 2mb and if you take in the icons its actually and jwm replacing its like less than 1mb extra. I also have some unreleased themes that I made up for my next Living water but I'm willing to donate them to the cause, around 240kb each theme

Well what do you feel/think?

Really we wouldn't need a coordinator or anything if we had some guide rules,
like forum votes
release schedules
1 dedicated base builder/developer who has ample time to devote
package providers

There has been a lot of views and ideas in the other threads, what we need more of is actions speak louder than words.

First and mostly we need a base developer who wants to take it on? any takers ?? You'll be famous, a real star in the community
ttuuxxx

[alcy]

With that said it could be time for a change to show the world eg distrowatch and other software reviewers that we can and will make it on our own.

Flaw #1.

we could advertise at places like distrowatch.

Or be patient.

Puppy 5.0 should follow what barry is planning, which is to have it compatible with a big brother distro and his pick is the same as mine "Ubuntu Intrepid" If we could adapt our package manager to use Ubuntu Intrepid repo that would be excellent. No fuss no muss
Keep it under 100MB

Sounds cool. But it also implies less flexibility. And, more bloat.

This might be the only time that could use Firefox 2.17 the latest release which came out maybe 2 weeks ago. Since the 3.0 series is problematic for puppy and probably won't ever be used in puppy main release, It would really give use some great reviews.

I like Seamonkey better. A vote from users, probably ? Like a poll on the main puppy page or a sticky thread, here on the forums could sort things out at least on this front?

It could be the last chance to ever use Firefox with a puppy main release.

And that matters, because...?

Gxine has had issues ever since the 3.0 series and needs to be changed, I have proven that VLC takes lower resources, I've even made a 4-5 MB QT4 version but it has issues that I'm working on, It would be nice if we had a team of developers to work on 1 large project like VLC, I had 41 pet packages I compiled up to build it. Talk about devotion, Plus I have compiling issues with ffmpeg and could use some help.

There's too much "I" in that. Sheesh! How many more times is it required of you to tell everyone about what you've done. Everybody feels thankful to you (no pun intended) for your efforts. Just don't go overboard with the "I" part.

The default Calculators need to be axed and replaced with the linux norm "Galculator" and keep gmeasures

Why ? I like the current lot of tools.

The Control Panel that was started and never finished needs to restarted and finished

Whatever Control Panel project was, sounds nice to me.

The Networking and Wifi needs continuous updates, maybe some sort of puppy live update system could be built with a revert back option.

Seconded. The live update system part.

Maybe 2 versions of puppy xorg with mesa for newer pc's and xvesa for older pc's

Sounds confusing for the newbie who just happened to try linux, heard good things about Puppy and is given some sort of choice, he might not have any idea about.
Flaw#2

Have a look at our libs like sdl Libs, they are really tiny why not included them? maybe some other small libs.What I was thinking is that if we are staying under 100mb and the release is 92MB why not add in Gimp and Inkscape and maybe some filler libs? and bring it up to 99 or 100MB?

Well, the hypothetical release you have been talking about, are you sure its gonna be around 90 mb and will allow for these filler libs and applications ? Or are you really good with calculating probabilities ?

Maybe for this release remove JWM and replace it with a lite icewm package, maybe the one I made up for 4.0 it also replaces 86 default icons and its only 2mb and if you take in the icons its actually and jwm replacing its like less than 1mb extra. I also have some unreleased themes that I made up for my next Living water but I'm willing to donate them to the cause, around 240kb each theme

I like JWM better. Probably decorate JWM for the looks.




P.S. I am sorry if that sounded rude or naive. No offense meant.

[Lobster]

Or be patient.

You can see how the community exists here:
http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki/archives ... -community
Some developers need adding . . .

You will also find there Barrys latest statement from 4.1 RC (help / release notes) part of which is here:
". . . Plus, I will provide input to how and who
takes over, hopefully without interfering too much. I see this as
providing a kind of safeguard function -- I am mindful of other distros
that have languished after the Benevolent Dictator left. Monitor my
blog for updates on the transitional phase as I progressively retire."

You can find logo/artwork for 4.2 here:
http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki/archives ... ep-thought

4.2 is designed to be a simple and natural progression
based on ways that have previously found fruition . . .

[HairyWill]

Well the name doesn't have to be written in stone. It was the feeling I was getting thinking about it. I've been talking to numerous developers via email and well The clock is ticking and we are asleep at the wheel.

"New Hope" implies there was something desperately wrong before.
I don't understand why you have opened another new thread when there is active discussion in the old ones.
I don't understand the desperate rush. You have said before that you can spend 50 hours a week working on puppy. I steal 1-2 hours a day from all the other things I do in life. I am sure there are many people with full and busy lives that want to contribute, if you insist in running before they have had an opportunity to contribute to the game plan then they are oing to become disenfranchised. The idea that there is a private consensus view is IMHO incorrect and exclusive. Private channels are great for throwing round ideas but not a good way of strategically directing community effort unless one has a desire to control direction.

There has been talk about 4.2 and now could be the time to talk about 5.0

Does the version number really matter

These are just ideas off that I received from members of the forum.
Puppy was and is Barry's baby that he nurtured and raised to stand on its on own feet. With that said it could be time for a change to show the world eg distrowatch and other software reviewers that we can and will make it on our own.

I don't feel the need to prove anything to anyone

We need 1 developer to step and and take over building the base, ASAP! I'm getting that response from users and developers. If we do not have someone who is capable or has time to do it, we could advertise at places like distrowatch.

I'm not convinced that this is the consensus view of those that are suitably informed and willing to contribute.

Puppy 5.0 should follow what barry is planning, which is to have it compatible with a big brother distro and his pick is the same as mine "Ubuntu Intrepid"

I must have missed Barry saying this.

Well what do you feel/think?

Slow down, you're movin too fast, we've got to make this moment last

There has been a lot of views and ideas in the other threads, what we need more of is actions speak louder than words.

less thinking and discussing, more running around like headless chickens?

ttuuxxx
You have so much energy and have released quality puplets in the past.
This is your strength.
Whenever you try to discuss community direction you end up offending someone.
This is your weakness.

I imagine that you are trying really hard to ensure the future survival of the puppy identity. There is no rush.

Play to your strength. If you would like to see technical/presentation innovations in puppy, why not just release them in your own puplet first to demonstrate how good they are?

[WhoDo]

Well what do you feel/think?

Slow down, you're movin too fast, we've got to make this moment last

Just kickin' down the cobble stones, lookin' for fun and feelin' groovy!

Simon and Garfunkle were a favourite of mine way back when. There's definitely a valuable message in there, Will. Thanks for that!

[Brandon]

There has been talk about 4.2 and now could be the time to talk about 5.0

Puppy 3 is only on its second release and 4 is almost to the second, we need to decide what to do right now, with 3 and 4 before deciding to start a new version.

We need 1 developer to step and and take over building the base, ASAP!

Slow down, man. No one is fighting you to run 4.2

compatible with a big brother distro and his pick is the same as mine "Ubuntu Intrepid"

Ubuntu has a lot of packages, but we need to keep puppy itself. If puppy gets to much like Ubuntu, people will leave.

It could be the last chance to ever use Firefox with a puppy main release.

Before changing the web browser, maybe a poll? It should have the size of each browser and list Opera, Firefox 2 and 3, Seamonkey, and any other browser people might like.

I have proven that VLC takes lower resources,

I love VLC, but again, maybe a poll?

The default Calculators need to be axed and replaced with the linux norm "Galculator" and keep gmeasures

Yeah the current ones look kind of thrown in.

remove JWM and replace it with a lite icewm package

I feel like I'm saying this alot, but another Poll. One man shoudn't make all the decisions just yet, maybe after a few releases when you know what the people want and the people like you, but with your first release, ask what the people want.

[ttuuxxx]

Hey Guys I did say that there would be no need for a coordinator so basically I would just submit Ideas applications to the developer who ever that will be, maybe some graphics And thats my part.
So don't get on the offensive this time, I'm not trying to control/shape anything, I just laid out an plan I was getting from people via emails and forum threads thats it. What happens next I have no idea, I do know one person who used to be into puppy and he no longer is with puppy, I might as him if he would like to offer his assistance to build the base and come back to puppy. who knows?
ttuuxxx

And yessssss everything is open to a vote, nothing is chiseled into stone
ttuuxxx

[alienjeff]

The clock is ticking and we are asleep at the wheel.

Enough of the Chicken Little, mmmkay?

... it could be time for a change to show the world eg distrowatch and other software reviewers that we can and will make it on our own.

Yet in the very next paragraph you suggest:

If we do not have someone who is capable or has time to do it, we could advertise at places like distrowatch.

You mean something like this?

WATCH OUT ALL YOU DW NAYSAYERS!!11!1! PUPPY L1NUX V5.0 IZ ON ITZ WAY TO PWN ALL OTHER DISTROS! SO YOU ALL BETTER WATCH OUT! By the way, we are in desperate need of a lead developer and coordinator. Apply via email to puppy5rulz@gmail.com

If we could adapt our package manager to use Ubuntu Intrepid repo that would be excellent.

LOL@Ewwbuntu. If you're going to latch onto a big-brother distro, cut out the middle man and use Debian's repo, ffs.

I have proven ... I've even made ... I'm working on ... I had 41 pet packages ... I compiled up to ... Talk about devotion,

Devotion? Lets talk about obsession instead. How about complete lack of A Life?

Plus I have compiling issues with ffmpeg ...

You have more important "issues" to deal with besides ffmpeg ...

... and could use some help.

Consider psycho-analysis.

[HairyWill]

ttuuxxx
As far as I can see. I am the only person who has publicly proposed to suport you as the person to coordinate the next release and that was with some fairly restrictive caveats. This does not give you a mandate from the community or Barry to do anything.

I have seen several references to a mysterious person that is going to step forward as a developer working on a puppy release.
This person does not (as yet) exist.
If they do then deciding how the release should be run without their input is a bit presumptious. I think it is unlikely that anyone qualified would volunteer in this scenario.
If they are capable of grass roots innovations in puppy, why do they need you to coordinate them?

I always seem to be negative about your ideas. I don't like being in this position.

A question we might all step back and consider.
Why do I want a release of puppy after 4.1?
1) world domination
2) better software functionality (file format compatability)
3) better software usability
4) improved hardware suppport
5) better looks
6) better support for new users/windows refugees
7) other

My personal order
4, 3, 2, 6

If the next release doesn't offer #3 there is very little reason for me to bother upgrading.

... and could use some help.

Consider psycho-analysis.

I don't think this helps puppy or ttuuxx, just for this thread please can we stay on topic and avoid losing the thread in a slanging match

[alienjeff]

@HairyWill

That wasn't slanging. It was a suggestion based on observation and with only honorable intent.

[SirDuncan]

Puppy 5.0 . . . No. Not yet. I really think that jumping another series so soon is a bad idea. Look at this: 2.12, 2.13, 2.14, 2.16, 2.17, 3.00, 3.01, 4.00, 3.02, 4.10, 5.00 - do you see the problem? You're getting ahead of yourself, and the community. Let's wait for a final of 4.10, then start working on 4.20. We need to get our bearings and work out our development system before we tackle a big enough change to warrant a series version increase.

Puppy 5.0 should follow what barry is planning, which is to have it compatible with a big brother distro and his pick is the same as mine "Ubuntu Intrepid" If we could adapt our package manager to use Ubuntu Intrepid repo that would be excellent.

I like the idea of being able to directly utilize the Ubuntu or Debian repositories. I do worry that the packages will not be optimized for size, though. Perhaps a non-release experimental to determine the viability of this approach? I would be willing to assist if I am able.

This might be the only time that could use Firefox 2.17 the latest release which came out maybe 2 weeks ago. Since the 3.0 series is problematic for puppy and probably won't ever be used in puppy main release, It would really give use some great reviews. Plus it works very well with puppy. It could be the last chance to ever use Firefox with a puppy main release.

I haven't had any trouble with FF3x except for that stupid file that grows to huge sizes. However, I don't think that any FF should be the browser that comes with Puppy. It's a fairly big program to include when nearly half of users (just a guess) will be using something else. I don't like Seamonkey, never have and I probably never will. The ideal thing would be to have a small, simple browser that would allow for the installation of the user's browser of choice. That does create a problem for those of us who like to pop in the live CD to do trouble shooting. Those small browsers can be a pain in the butt when you are trying to look something up online. That leaves with one last option that I can think of.

Opera is small, full-featured, and some many people use it as their main browser already. It also has some of the advantages of Seamonkey in that it has other functionality built in. Even with the QT libs, I'm pretty sure that Opera is smaller than either Seamonkey or Firefox. Whatever browser we choose, many people will want to replace it. Opera just seems to be the best choice when you know that.

If Opera were not a choice (only GTK programs), I would have to vote for Seamonkey. I dislike the browser, but it also provides other applications. It's just more bang for your byte. I think that was why Barry chose it.

Gxine has had issues ever since the 3.0 series and needs to be changed, I have proven that VLC takes lower resources, I've even made a 4-5 MB QT4 version but it has issues that I'm working on.

I like VLC and would be willing to see it included. Gxine is okay, too, but VLC works with my TV tuner (well, it would if I felt like recompiling the kernel with support for V4L). If we are already using Opera, then the size of the QT libs is defrayed by their use in multiple programs.

The default Calculators need to be axed and replaced with the linux norm "Galculator" and keep gmeasures

Why do we have so many calculators?

Maybe 2 versions of puppy xorg with mesa for newer pc's and xvesa for older pc's

So I have to download two different ISOs?

Ttuuxxx, I have a great deal of respect for you, I just think you are moving too fast. The community needs to get its footing. We can't let ourselves become stuck, but if we move too fast we will fall. If you want to do a tech demo for Ubuntu/Debian compatibility, I'm with you.

[Trobin]

Puppy 5.0 . . . No. Not yet. I really think that jumping another series so soon is a bad idea. Look at this: 2.12, 2.13, 2.14, 2.16, 2.17, 3.00, 3.01, 4.00, 3.02, 4.10, 5.00 - do you see the problem? You're getting ahead of yourself, and the community. Let's wait for a final of 4.10, then start working on 4.20.

I really don't think that's going to be a problem. Judging by what I've read on the various threads concerning a possible future for Puppy, I 'm beginning to doubt that it will progress further than Barry's final release, 4.1. Unless he changes his mind about retiring.

[Caneri]

Hi Trobin,

Well that post of yours needs a reply.

You can bet your bottom dollar Puppy will continue and grow.

I have a new server setup coming and I'm betting that with the new ways that will emerge, Puppy will be handled well. With Barry's help and guidance, along with the crew, I have no doubt where Puppy is heading...only up...in my opinion.

Best,
Eric

[Trobin]

I hope you're right Caneri.

[HairyWill]

Anarchy could be considered a very elegant solution to the problem. A period of 'forking' madness could possibly lead to new allegences and long term stability. This scenario would favour those whose puppy producing skills could out live a period of natural selection. Ultimately cooperative behaviour might superceed this. Anarchy is not very good for politicians, middle management and project coordinators!

[Caneri]

Yup..me too Trobin..but you see I'm not worried about the changes. I agree with Barry when he says Puppy will get better and better.

@ ALL,

There is one thing you should consider that seems to be missing in these threads.

If negative takes over positive then you can surely bet on the demise of any project.

I would like to say that to those that complain about John Murga's forum, or fret about Puppy, and if that BarryK will dump this and retire to some unknown world that I've never heard of, take another look and stop to think that your rants/complaints may entice John Murga and BarryK to make it come true and truly dump this forum and the distro...so relax and enjoy the process. I didn't see any obituary's here..you really have no choice in the matter nor do I..but it's still Puppy and will remain Puppy...sheesh.

Best,
Eric

EDIT: @Will,
You posted whist I was typing.
Long live anarchy...eventually it works into a direction that is usually a good one once the fluff is blown away.

[Trobin]

Anarchy could be considered a very elegant solution to the problem. A period of 'forking' madness could possibly lead to new allegences and long term stability. This scenario would favour those whose puppy producing skills could out live a period of natural selection. Ultimately cooperative behaviour might superceed this. Anarchy is not very good for politicians, middle management and project coordinators!

Perhaps those that are vying for top job should be asked to put together a puplet that incorporates some of their ideas.

[ttuuxxx]

ttuuxxx

A question we might all step back and consider.
Why do I want a release of puppy after 4.1?
2) better software functionality (file format compatability)
3) better software usability
4) improved hardware suppport
5) better looks
6) better support for new users/windows refugees
7) other

If the next release doesn't offer #3 there is very little reason for me to bother upgrading..

I like 2,3,4,5,6,7

Ok guys this is what Barry said http://www.puppylinux.org/community/barrys-blog
"
Binary compatibility with a major distro
I'm thinking that after 4.1 and 4.2, it might be wise to move back to binary compatibility with one of the major distros. It is so incredibly time consuming compiling packages. And, you have probably noticed how many times I am recompiling the 2.6.25.x kernel. It is better to leverage off all the hard work that goes into a major distro I think.

After releasing 4.1 and shifting one step closer to retirement, I will be working on my own puplet that targets one or more of the baby laptops. I might reconstruct Unleashed and the 'devx' based on packages from a major distro -- but not necessarily Slackware, perhaps the upcoming Ubuntu 8.10 'Intrepid'. What do you think about choice of distro?

If I do rebuild Unleashed and devx, I'll make it available of course, if the main Puppy developers want to adopt it. "

Can you say"Hell Ya"

Ask yourself. if he Barry isn't sticking with the 4.0 series then why are we?
The 3 series was always my version of choice, but the 4.0 slowly grew on me, I don't see why we would have another community edition for 4.2 that we can put together with packages, and at the same time start preparing for 5.0. Shouldn't we be on the same page as Barry or 6-12 months behind?

Tronkel has informed me that he would like to continue on the community edition 3 and as time permits start on a community edition for 4.1ce, So it won't be produced quickly because he does work and have other obligations but never the less it could be done
Now that sounds like 4.1ce is covered.

So wouldn't the next obvious step would be move on to 5.0

If not ok, if so ok, really its about progress and not regress.
ttuuxxx

[tronkel]

ttuuxxx wrote:

Now that sounds like 4.2 is covered.

A base version called 4.2 is most certainly NOT covered unless Barry builds this. The community has no-one at present who can build ANY base version to Barry's standards.


As in previous times, I could make a derivative based on a final Barry 4.1 base version. Even If that is the case and such a derivative gets built by me, in no way should it be construed as being a base 4.2 and certainly not a 5.0 nor even a 4.1 revisited. It would simply be another face-lifted base version amongst the many that have been built in the last few years by numerous wannabe Joe C. Developer (s)

[Béèm]

I think there is no rush to go ahead too quickly.
Seeing the n° of issues raised in the Bug threads, there is plenty to work on to have finally an error free 4.1 before going to 4.2 or 5.0
A lot of the issues raised in the bug threads seem not to be addressed.

In fact I have raised several times in several bug threads issues on I had an answer of only one person.

One of the issues if for me a real show stopper. SeaMonkey isn't working correctly anymore concerning file download ans saving.

After all if feedback is asked, given and not addressed what faith will there be left in the program?

Just my 2 cents.

BTW this will not deter me to try to help others if I can with the knowledge I have.