Why does Puppy run in root?

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alienjeff
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Re: Why does Puppy run in root?

#21 Post by alienjeff »

jonyo wrote:At any rate, I'm interested in ""Why won't Ubuntu let us have a real administrator account?"

* Other distributions (most major ones) do!

Why? "
I'll answer your question with a question:

Why are you asking that question on the Puppy Linux forum instead of the Ubuntu forum?
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Aitch
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#22 Post by Aitch »

SirDuncan wrote:As an aside, is anyone else noticing the large amount of interest in the security of running as root?
I think there has been a general & sliding increase in posts about security since 9/11, - recently is only an accelerating phase brought about no doubt by the recent debian/ubuntu debacle

were you affected?

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=29159

As BruceB points out passwords aren't exactly secure, are they, given what they have published about the ssh keys

Aitch

jonyo

#23 Post by jonyo »

248 • ref # 247 (by OC Smith on 2008-05-24 05:10:11 GMT from United States)
sudo su -
plus your password lets you become root.
And besides staying in root for longer duration is suicide.

Also, and I'm not going to post it here, you can create a root password so effectively you can use root.

For normal usage why be root? Not needed and dangerous. That's what gets Windows user into a lot of trouble. The sad thing is they don't even know it!
250 • On using ROOT vs SUDO (by John Grub on 2008-05-24 05:16:33 GMT from United States)
Regarding Ubuntu and root. Have you read this:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo

It explains why its a bad idea to stay in root.

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Pizzasgood
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#24 Post by Pizzasgood »

oblivious wrote:Thanks.
Since that file only contains any new or changed data
New or changed since your last logon, or since the installation? If the former, are there 2 "tiers" in the pup save file - since installation and since last logon?
Since installation. Sorry, should have specified that.

Now, in the case of a non-full install on Flash media, you do have a second tier in ram that has all the changes from just during the session. Puppy will periodically copy those into the save file. In 4.01 Barry will be making the period configurable and (tentatively) setting the default to only copy change to pup_save.2fs during reboot.

With that, you could save settings once and make sure periodic saving is disabled. Then the next time you run it, if you don't do anything worth saving you can simply do a hard poweroff (assuming Barry doesn't add an option to reboot without saving) and not save any new data, but still get to load the old data. For just plain web-surfing this would mostly be fine since all you'd lose would be cookies and cache data.
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SirDuncan
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#25 Post by SirDuncan »

Bruce (and anyone else interested),
When I last gave Ubuntu a try, I was frustrated by the lack of root account. I prefer to do my administration as an administrator. I did some digging, and as it turns out, root logins are only disabled by default and can be re-enabled. I forget how I did it, but I found the instructions on the net somewhere. Google (or your search engine of preference) should find what you seek.
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Bruce B

#26 Post by Bruce B »

SirDuncan wrote:Bruce (and anyone else interested),
When I last gave Ubuntu a try, I was frustrated by the lack of root account. I prefer to do my administration as an administrator. I did some digging, and as it turns out, root logins are only disabled by default and can be re-enabled. I forget how I did it, but I found the instructions on the net somewhere. Google (or your search engine of preference) should find what you seek.
Thanks a lot. I think the problem is when you last gave Ubuntu a try.

According to my wasted CD-ROM and communications and reading. Ubuntu worked as you described, then did more serious crippling.

Actually I felt bad because there were things I liked about it.

But the upside is Linux is not under the control of anyone and we don't have to live with one person's decision about the features we can or can't have. Especially in terms of control over out computers.

Bruce B

#27 Post by Bruce B »

Ubuntu's primary argument posted below
  • In Linux (and Unix in general), there is a superuser named root. The Windows analog of root is Administrator. The superuser can do anything and everything, and thus doing daily work as the superuser can be dangerous. You could type a command incorrectly and destroy the system. Ideally, you run as a user that has only the privileges needed for the task at hand. In some cases, this is necessarily root, but most of the time it is a regular user.
My rebuttal to the argument posted below.

It's my computer, I'm in the best position to know if I need protection from myself.

If I really could type in a command incorrectly and destroy the system, I'll make sure not to type in that command again.

If the 'superuser' can do anything and everything, cool, way cool! Then I want to be the superuser. That is exactly what I want and how I want to operate my computer. With full permission I'm an adult and the computer is mine. Man over machine.

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nipper
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#28 Post by nipper »

Bruce B wrote:It's my computer, I'm in the best position to know if I need protection from myself.

If I really could type in a command incorrectly and destroy the system, I'll make sure not to type in that command again.

If the 'superuser' can do anything and everything, cool, way cool! Then I want to be the superuser. That is exactly what I want and how I want to operate my computer. With full permission I'm an adult and the computer is mine. Man over machine.
You make a good argument for this. As a "social" argument it is hard to argue with if one believes in freedom. However, the issue we are discussing here is a "technical" one. With any of the distros, if *you* load it you can make yourself root, you do have the password, you are the one who sets it. *You* get to use your system as you see fit if you are able to configure it thus. However, you may not want *someone else* who uses your computer to be able to type in a command incorrectly and destroy *your* system. I'm reminded of the poster, who's name I don't remember, relating how his ten year old kept messing up the system for everyone and then it had to be fixed by the poster, every time.

Don't misunderstand, I don't have a problem with Puppy running as root. I understand how useful and easy to use Puppy is because of that and applaud BarryK's crafting. I came here to get a copy because it's good. My opinion, its strength is as a single-user, workstation type of distro.

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erikson
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Re: Why does Puppy run in root?

#29 Post by erikson »

Swarup wrote:I am wondering why it runs in root? Sounds sort of risky and unnecessary. Is there some benefit to doing it this way?
Insofar I understand, Barry has conceived Puppy right from the outset as a single-user desktop operating system, for users who like to be "in the driver's seat".

No doubt this fundamental choice allowed him to avoid the convoluted complexities of dealing with subtle multi-user security issues (*), and instead to focus his efforts on the speed, functional substance and robustness that makes Puppy so great.

(*) Surely Redmond is dealing with these, and they have been shoveling multiple "security updates" onto my laptop up to a point that it has become too slow for me to do meaningful work under XP without frustration.
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#30 Post by gerry »

I think that messing up my Puppy by making a mistake when operating as root is a non-issue for those of us who use the live cd. The pup_save file is backed up, and it takes only a minute or two to delete the messed-up pup_save and copy the back-up to get everything back again.

I've never messed up the system accidentally- it's always due to some experiment or download that has not worked.

Gerry

Bruce B

#31 Post by Bruce B »

nipper wrote:
{cut}

With any of the distros, if *you* load it you can make yourself root, you do have the password, you are the one who sets it. *You* get to use your system as you see fit if you are able to configure it thus. However, you may not want *someone else* who uses your computer to be able to type in a command incorrectly and destroy *your* system.

{cut}
Nipper,

I thought I wrote something about man over machine, if not, I just said it.

I have a PC, to me, that means Personal Computer. It is my computer.

Under what circumstances is someone using my computer? None, if they know what is good for them, and the last of the problems has to do with them running a command, if they didn't first get the Commander's permission, which they didn't.

We would be dealing with an serious violation of respect and property rights. (mine)

Not much more to say about my computer.

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#32 Post by nipper »

I share.

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#33 Post by Flash »

I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out (once again :D ) that the whole issue of how to share a computer yet keep your stuff private is solved if each user of a computer runs Puppy from his or her own multisession DVD. Users can even use a common hard disk drive to share files and stuff, without risking anything saved on their personal DVD.
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#34 Post by paulh »

I like running as root in a full install (Puppy 4.00) on a single user box. I'm all for man over machine. So when surfing the net, I'd just as soon put limits on other machines touching mine and doing something I don't want. That's when I don't want to be root. See spot/README.TXT in puppy's home folder in the full installation for an easy way to not be root.

Is it paranoia when they really are out to get you? :lol:

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Root,Scoot ,Boot ,passwords,malware,virus checkers etc. etc.

#35 Post by bill »

Hi All,To clarify my lack my understanding in all the "Worries" of "Security" unless I was involved in "National Security" or some such,I really don't have much worry in all of this with LiveCDs because they are so handy to simply kill the temp files,I think it is .sfs ? and simply reload the LiveCD Puppy 4.0 ,and reenter whatever info I need and I am back in business.(I know this because I have shot myself in the foot several times already) You certainly can't say this with any other.
Brand X software.So unless someone cares to explain what "Evil doers" could visit on me that I haven't thought of,I will continue to follow the wise old saying of the "Aussies" No Worries ,Mate !The only thing I do wonder about is "What are people doing ? to have so much fun and need to keep others from finding out about it ?" :lol: cheers,bill

Oh .and before someone might decide to give me a online lessons on what they can accomplish,I absolutely refuse to do "Online Banking" or "CC transactions" over the internet so your not liable to find any good info .

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#36 Post by erikson »

Flash wrote:I'd just like to take this opportunity to point out (once again :D ) that the whole issue of how to share a computer yet keep your stuff private is solved if each user of a computer runs Puppy from his or her own multisession DVD. Users can even use a common hard disk drive to share files and stuff, without risking anything saved on their personal DVD.
Excellent point.

Same applies to USB pendrive configs, that may contain Puppy OS + all "private" (not-for-sharing) personal data.
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#37 Post by alcy »

Using sudo is irritating, given the frequency of its usage and the number of tweaks you need to do, inevitable tweaks. I really got tired of sudo chmod every time I had to do something as simple as copy-paste or edit. And after a while you get so used to it, that you are as good as root, and the original "saving the system from being destroyed by the user" purpose gets defeated. Be a little responsible root, and enjoy. :)

Bruce B

#38 Post by Bruce B »

The distro is Knoppix VL (virtual machine)

Default login user is knoppix (whoami)

su to root ( a sudo alias )

plenty of crashes, appears because starting GUI as root, but i've not yet debugged it.

Where to build the VM images? Under /home/knoppix?

A serious VMer will have gigabytes of vm imagines, but may strongly prefer all these images not belong in the knoppix user directory.

My initial (but not yet tested) thought would be to take a big partition and let user knoppix be the owner of all the directories of that partition. not to mention permissions. override the default of mounting partitions read only also. Yes, this Knoppix mounts readonly, dare it trust you with write operations, whitout you over-riddeing the default to read / write

I think it's great to have a distro pre-built for the VM user with the major VMs preconfigured.

It would be easier for me to allow root to be root without limiting him.

Limiting root doesn't make things easier, I think it requires more Linux know-how to get around the limitations. At a certain level of know-how, accunt root is not likely to present a danger to the computer.

---------------------

Not to mention very realistic work arounds for paranoid and controlling developers. Who appareently mistakenly think their audience may be stupid Windows converts. If they are Windows converts, I supsect they are not stupid or ignorant, at least they weren't as stupid as Microsoft needed them to be.

Summary: Knoppix seems to represent more work, not less. My virtual machines will not be for the hostile Internet, but if they were, I'd have enough sense to not run them as root, regardless of the sofware package hosting the VMS.

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#39 Post by alienjeff »

NOMINATION FOR
TYPO OF THE YEAR

Bruce B wrote:At a certain level of know-how, accunt root is not likely to present a danger to the computer.
I couldn't agree with you more, Bruce!

:wink:
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#40 Post by Caneri »

arse roots are tricky though...lol

Good one aj

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