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Trouble installing SCIM m17n in Puppy 3.01
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Irihapeti
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PostPosted: Thu 22 May 2008, 23:05    Post subject:  

Swarup:

You make a good point: all the instructions on this thread could benefit from being sorted out into one coherent whole.

From what I can make of it at the moment, there are slight differences between the requirements for Puppy 2.17, which is what I'm using, and Puppy 3.01. Some of the things that work for me don't seem to have worked for RRK and other Puppy 3.01 users.

Therefore, I would be happy to write up my own instructions into one document, but not as the definitive set for all Puppy users. At the moment, I am downloading the files for m17n, to see if I can compile those successfully for my system. If so, I'll post the results.

Scim-tables, which I have installed, has inputs for Hindi, but they may not be the ones you are used to. They are called Phonetic and Inscript.

When I checked a few minutes ago, the files were available on SourceForge. I think there may have been some confusion with m17n files not being available from one particular source.
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Swarup

Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Thu 22 May 2008, 23:52    Post subject:  

Irihapeti wrote:
You make a good point: all the instructions on this thread could benefit from being sorted out into one coherent whole.

From what I can make of it at the moment, there are slight differences between the requirements for Puppy 2.17, which is what I'm using, and Puppy 3.01. Some of the things that work for me don't seem to have worked for RRK and other Puppy 3.01 users.


Yes, and to add to this, I am using 4.0-- which no one else on this thread seems to be using. I do not know what differences if any this new version may present for the SCIM issue. But the idea of having a coherent whole for this guideline is indeed extremely attractive, and very much needed. It could also have subsections to it as needed, to make clear the differences according to Puppy version.

Irihapeti wrote:
Therefore, I would be happy to write up my own instructions into one document, but not as the definitive set for all Puppy users. At the moment, I am downloading the files for m17n, to see if I can compile those successfully for my system. If so, I'll post the results.


Sounds great. Smile

Irihapeti wrote:
Scim-tables, which I have installed, has inputs for Hindi, but they may not be the ones you are used to. They are called Phonetic and Inscript.


That is extremely useful information, as these two--Phonetic and Inscript--are the very two that come default in the SCIM-m17n installation in Ubuntu as well. And I was able to install my table (called hi-baraha as it is based on a Windows program called Baraha) in Ubuntu SCIM, right alongside those two tables which you have. So that is a very encouraging sign, that I'll be able to install my table in the Puppy SCIM configuration. Now, when you talk about the SCIM-tables which you have installed, you mean installed in the SCIM-bridge technique, right? The one with 19 languages in it. That is, as opposed to the m17n technique which Ramesh used, that has 41 languages in it.

I just want to be sure which installation you are referring to here which has the Hindi Phonetic and Inscript tables in it, because--especially if it is the easier-to-install SCIM-bridge technique, then I'll definitely go for that one.

Irihapeti wrote:
When I checked a few minutes ago, the files were available on SourceForge. I think there may have been some confusion with m17n files not being available from one particular source.


Which files do you refer to here? Do you mean the files for SCIM installation? I guess, the scim-bridge version? If so-- please let me know which post in this thread best describes the steps for installation, and I'll do it tonight itself.
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Irihapeti
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PostPosted: Fri 23 May 2008, 02:22    Post subject:  

Swarup:

The files I was referring to are the scim-bridge and scim-tables source files.

Scim tables appears to work with scim-bridge. I say "appears" because I don't have the Hindi (or other) fonts installed, so I'm not seeing actual characters but instead the little unicode boxes that appear when a font is missing.

The Phonetic and Inscript inputs are in scim-tables, so it's looking promising for you to be able to use the scim-bridge method. m17n only has hi-itrans.

My reason for pursuing the scim-bridge route is that it's localisation-independent. My son's girlfriend, who is Chinese, can send emails in Mandarin without my having to change the localisation language. I installed scim-pinyin made pinyin input available through scim-bridge.

By the way, I'm chasing my tail somewhat with m17n. If it proves too hard, I'll let it go.

As I recall it, without reading through the whole thread again, the main change I made was compiling scim with prefix=/usr, because scim-bridge didn't like the scim files being in /usr/local. I think that RRK found that this change didn't work on his system. You could try it both ways, and see which one works.

Then there are two lines to add to gtk.immodules, and two lines to .xinitrc. These are in the scripts that I uploaded.

I hope this is of some help.

Irihapeti
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RR Koothady

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Coimbatore, India

PostPosted: Fri 23 May 2008, 05:16    Post subject: Hindi Phonetic  

Dear Swarupji,

Baraha uses Phonetic Keyboard for all Indic languages.

So, your requirement is Phonetic Keyboard enabled SCIM.

That Keyboard is available in "SCIM - SCIM.Bridge - SCIM Tables - pack.

These pets are available for download even now. Links:

http://rapidshare.com/files/105920194/scim-1.4.7-i486.pet.html - SCIM
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=27967&start=15 - SCIM-Bridge
http://rapidshare.com/files/105920196/scim-tables-0.5.8-i486.pet.html - SCIM Tables

Before using SCIM, install Hindi font at : /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/TTF

Please follow the installation instructions noted already in this thread.

As Irihapeti has stated in her previous post, placing two scripts in /root/.xinitrc and /etc/Gtk-2/im-modules is a must.

Here comes the hitch for Puppy 4 - Dingo! [Puppy Version you are using now)

I had noted this in another thread. (
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=28481&start=75 )
Quote:

Tried SCIM in Dingo yesterday. Alas! ROX Filer crashes when the script ""/usr/lib/gtk-2.0/immodules/im-scim.so" "scim" "SCIM Input Method" "" "" "" is placed in "immodules" file located at /etc/gtk-2. (This is an essential script necessary for making SCIM available in all the Gtk apps.)


So, may I suggest that you move to earlier versions of Puppy ( at least for the time being, till this bug is sorted out )?

Best

Ramesh
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Swarup

Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Fri 23 May 2008, 09:34    Post subject: Re: Hindi Phonetic  

Dear Rameshji,

RR Koothady wrote:
Baraha uses Phonetic Keyboard for all Indic languages.

So, your requirement is Phonetic Keyboard enabled SCIM.


It is quite true that Baraha uses phonetic keyboard. But even then, not all phonetic keyboards are the same. And this is the key point. There are huge differences between different phonetic keyboards for the same language.

I have seen perhaps five different phonetic keyboards for Hindi. And the one I liked, and have been using for several years now, is the Baraha phonetic keyboard. Itrans for example, uses a different phonetic keyboard. One big difference between the Baraha phonetic keyboard and the Itrans phonetic keyboard is that in Baraha, there is no need to type an "a" at the end of each word. It is assumed. Whereas in Itrans, typing the "a" is a must otherwise the word will end up with a halant on it. And that is only one of the differences. There are others as well which would make it quite difficult for me to switch to Itrans.

In the same way, the phonetic hindi keyboard that comes with SCIM is quite different from the phonetic hindi keyboard of Baraha. And because this is the focal point of all my daily work (I spend 7-9 hours daily using this keyboard), I really do need it.

As Irihapeti has told,

Quote:
The Phonetic and Inscript inputs are in scim-tables, so it's looking promising for you to be able to use the scim-bridge method. m17n only has hi-itrans.


I think I didn't express myself properly yesterday when I said that my hi-baraha was sitting alongside the Phonetic and Inscript tables. What I meant was, in the GUI it is sitting alongside. But in the computer's filing system, they are located in different places because, like hi-itrans, my hi-baraha is m17n and so is installed in the m17n folder.

But on the bright side, Irihapeti apparently also has hi-itrans, as she has mentioned it in her note. And this is the reassuring thing for me, because she has the scim-bridge version of SCIM installed. So if she was able to have hi-itrans installed in her SCIM bridge method, then that indicates I should be able to install my hi-baraha (an m17n file) in my SCIM bridge. --Am I correct about this? (Otherwise, how does Irihapeti know that "m17n only has hi-itrans". She must have it, to know this.)

Rameshji, the rest of the points explained in your note are all of extreme interest and utility for me. But they are all resting on this above matter-- will I be able to install my hi-baraha keyboard in the SCIM-bridge style which Irihapeti uses? Or will I instead need to follow the lengthier installation which you have given, in order to use my m17n hi-baraha keyboard?

And one more important point here which you raised:

RR Koothady wrote:
I had noted this in another thread. (
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=28481&start=75 )
Quote:

Tried SCIM in Dingo yesterday. Alas! ROX Filer crashes when the script ""/usr/lib/gtk-2.0/immodules/im-scim.so" "scim" "SCIM Input Method" "" "" "" is placed in "immodules" file located at /etc/gtk-2. (This is an essential script necessary for making SCIM available in all the Gtk apps.)


So, may I suggest that you move to earlier versions of Puppy ( at least for the time being, till this bug is sorted out )?


1. Is the latest version in which SCIM works then, the 3.01?
2. In order to install this version, should I first remove my 4.0 and do a fresh download and install of the 3.01?
3. Will my pup-save.2fs file with its wireless setup etc saved in it, apply to the earlier version?
4. Do you know, has the above bug been officially presented to the developers (ie via bugzilla or whatever medium they use), so it will be fixed?

Thanks so much to both of you Irihapeti and Ramesh, for all your kind help. Because of the two of you, I am feeling hope that I will be able to get this SCIM running on my computer in Puppy. Smile

Best Regards,
Swarup
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RR Koothady

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Coimbatore, India

PostPosted: Fri 23 May 2008, 12:33    Post subject: Hindi Phonetic  

Swarupji:

First, about the Puppy version for SCIM usage:

I think, at least for the present, you will have to install Puppy 3.01 or earlier versions to use SCIM.

I have presented this problem in the above said thread, and am not sure whether it would have been noticed by BK, or other developers. I am not sure when it would be sorted out. In my opinion, let us not cram the developers with this issue for now, because we have a few more paces to go in 3.01 itself. I think we can wait and present the issue at a later date, when we are settled with SCIM in 3.01 and other versions in comfort.

You may use Dingo for all other uses, so you can have Dingo2fs. For your daily Hindi work, however, you can have a your.2fs with 3.01 or earlier Puppies.

You are right about the differences in the Hindi Phonetic Key Boards. The same issue is present with the Tamil Phonetic Key Boards also.

Ji...I am not very clear about your exact need....

I want to know whether you need:

1) SCIM Phonetcic Key Board or
2) Inscript Keyboard (these 2 are available with Scim-Bridge) or
3) hi-itrans Keyboard (available with m17n)?

I have all these 3 keyboards installed with me. Please see the screen-shot. From what ever I have tried (I know very little Hindi), Hi-Itrans seems to be better among the three. If that is the case, then you will have to leave the SCIM-Bridge Route, and follow the other m-17n Route. For this, you'll have to install the following dot pets:

http://rapidshare.com/files/105920191/m17n-lib-1.5.1-i486.pet.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/105920192/m17n-db-1.5.1-i486.pet.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/105920194/scim-1.4.7-i486.pet.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/105920195/scim-m17n-0.2.2-i486.pet.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/105920196/scim-tables-0.5.8-i486.pet.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/105920198/table-imengine-setup.so.html

I think you are feeling a little tech-phobic about this installation. No need to feel like that. It's actually easy, and you are going to spend may be a couple of days with this whole lifetime relationship - na?

I am testing an easier (short-cut) installation method at present. However, I feel it would be VERY VERY USEFUL to have gone through the above installation methods to understand how this SCIM is related with our Puppy.

Ramesh
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Swarup

Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Fri 23 May 2008, 13:38    Post subject: Re: Hindi Phonetic  

Rameshji:

RR Koothady wrote:
First, about the Puppy version for SCIM usage:

I think, at least for the present, you will have to install Puppy 3.01 or earlier versions to use SCIM.

You may use Dingo for all other uses, so you can have Dingo2fs. For your daily Hindi work, however, you can have a your.2fs with 3.01 or earlier Puppies.


I've only just now installed Dingo, and really don't have any attachment to it. I don't even know anything about the other qualitative differences between 4.0 and 3.01. What I'll simply do, at least for the time being, is delete 4.0 and install 3.01. It's just a frugal install anyway, and very easy to do.

Will I need to make a fresh pup_save.2fs, or can the one I've been using the past two days for 4.0 be kept and used with 3.01? I don't have much in it yet really, although I'd like to preserve my SeaMonkey bookmarks and my wireless setup if I could. Even the wireless is only a 2-minute job to do afresh. But could I at least import my SeaMonkey browser bookmarks from the old pup_save.2fs to the new one (if indeed I need to make a fresh one for 3.01)?

As regards the SCIM & Dingo issue, what you have suggested sounds of course fine and very good. Let's get it working well with 3.01 first as you have rightly said.

RR Koothady wrote:
You are right about the differences in the Hindi Phonetic Key Boards. The same issue is present with the Tamil Phonetic Key Boards also.

Ji...I am not very clear about your exact need....

I want to know whether you need:

1) SCIM Phonetcic Key Board or
2) Inscript Keyboard (these 2 are available with Scim-Bridge) or
3) hi-itrans Keyboard (available with m17n)?


Actually, none of the above. I need hi-baraha. The actual file is called hi-baraha.mim, and installs in m17n the same way as hi-itrans does. So for practical purposes, you can consider that it is hi-trans I want to work with. Because my file hi-baraha.mim and the hi-itrans file install the same way.

And as you have explained here that to use itrans, one has to go the m17n route, so it looks like for my hi-baraha too, that is what I shall have to do.

RR Koothady wrote:
...If that is the case [that hi-itrans/hi-baraha is needed], then you will have to leave the SCIM-Bridge Route, and follow the other m-17n Route. For this, you'll have to install the following dot pets:

http://rapidshare.com/files/105920191/m17n-lib-1.5.1-i486.pet.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/105920192/m17n-db-1.5.1-i486.pet.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/105920194/scim-1.4.7-i486.pet.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/105920195/scim-m17n-0.2.2-i486.pet.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/105920196/scim-tables-0.5.8-i486.pet.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/105920198/table-imengine-setup.so.html

I think you are feeling a little tech-phobic about this installation. No need to feel like that. It's actually easy, and you are going to spend may be a couple of days with this whole lifetime relationship - na?

I am testing an easier (short-cut) installation method at present. However, I feel it would be VERY VERY USEFUL to have gone through the above installation methods to understand how this SCIM is related with our Puppy.


Ok. Smile With your blessings, I will move ahead and do the install. So the above dot pets I am to download, and then what I have to do with those is there one particular post in this thread I should look to for guidance? If you can just tell me the post# (are they numbered?), then I'll do it. If I have clear instructions, then it's not a problem I can surely do it.

Swarup

N.B. I tried to attach the hi-baraha.mim file here so you would see what I am talking about, but this site is not permitting the attachment of files having suffix "mim". So I pasted the file's contents into an Abiword document, but that Abiword files are not permitted either.

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Fri 23 May 2008, 13:53    Post subject:  

@Swarup

There, you see, Swarupji,

I knew you would fit in here with this fine team

Look after him, lads, I've been very gentle with him Very Happy

Good luck my friend Wink

Aitch
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RR Koothady

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Coimbatore, India

PostPosted: Fri 23 May 2008, 14:25    Post subject: Baraha Bahuth Achchaa Hai  

Swarupji:

Here it is! I downloaded hi-baraha.mim from :
https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-in/2007-August/001338.html

and placed it at /usr/local/share/m17n folder...

and .... yes .... Baraha is Bahuth Achchaa Hai! - हि - बारहा बहुथ अच्चा है!

To install:

Please follow the instructions given in the 6th post of the following link page:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=27967&start=15

Enjoy!

Ramesh
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Swarup

Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Fri 23 May 2008, 18:32    Post subject:  

Brilliant! Thanks loads for your help, Rameshji. I'm at work right now (until midnight), and will do the install first thing in the morning.

Swarup
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Swarup

Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2008, 13:23    Post subject:  

Hooray! SCIM installed without a hitch, and is working perfectly! Great job, Rameshji. And that wasn't a bit difficult, either. I was expecting to have to do compiling and other such complex tasks. But all I had to do was download the files, and click on install. Quite easy! Smile And I've got hi-baraha installed too.

There is one bit of news, and I don't know how much work it is going to require or why it is even going on. Perhaps you may have some insight into what is needed. The problem is this: although hi-baraha is installed, but there are several aspects of it that are not working properly:
1. All the individual letters are proper, but no joint letters will form. If you try to type a joint letter, it just keeps the two letters separate and puts a halant after the first one. HOWEVER-- in the upper left--hand corner of the screen a tiny window opens whenever one types, and it shows the letter as it is being formed. And THERE, the proper joint letter IS formed. But once the letter is complete and ready to appear in the actual text, it is not joint but rather as I described just above--separated, with a halant in between. Examples: क्रम, ब्राह्मण्, क्षति, अक़्ल, त्याग. In all these words, you see a small line--the halant--appearing in between what should be joint characters. Instead of having the two characters actually be joint.

2. The i-kaar is coming after the letter, and not before it: लेकिन -- Here I had typed "lekin", but the i-kaar (the vertical bar with the curved line attached to it) came after the क rather than before it. All the other vowel signs seem to work correctly.

3. The code for halant (^^), is not working. So when you actually DO want a halant, you don't get it.

I have not noticed any other errors. But I would say that the above errors are a must to solve, in order to use hi-baraha in Puppy.

But I should add that the problem does not seem at all due to hi-baraha itself. Rather, due to m17n's and perhaps SCIM's interaction with Puppy. Because the same errors above-- #1 and #2-- are also present in itrans, making me suspicious that there may well be such problems in other languages as well. It is definitely not limited to hi-baraha. Although it may be limited to m17n. I cannot say about SCIM's own phonetic and inscript Hindi, which are not part of m17n but rather pertain to SCIM itself. I don't remember well enough how these two keymaps work to test them properly now.

I will write now to the person who helped me to create the hi-baraha.mim file, and ask her what if anything she thinks can be done to make it work properly.

I will mention one other issue: The word wrap is not working properly in Abiword, when typing in Hindi. So at the end of a line, if you are in the middle of a word then Abiword leaves half the word at the end of that line and continues it on the next line, instead of bringing the whole word onto the next line when it doesn't fit on the previous one. I encountered the same problem though, with this version of Abiword (2.4.5) when I tried it in Xubuntu. And then when I downloaded into Ubuntu the newest version of Abiword available (something like 2.6.3), then as I recall that problem was no longer there.

I do see in the Puppy PET package manager that Abiword 2.6.0 is available. In order to install it, do I first uninstall the Abiword 2.4.5 currently existing in Puppy? (And if so, where is the command to do that. [In Ubuntu there is the Add/Remove Programs tool. But I haven't noticed anything like that in Puppy.])

Last edited by Swarup on Sun 25 May 2008, 21:21; edited 1 time in total
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Irihapeti
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PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2008, 17:02    Post subject:  

Swarup:

I'm relying on memory here, and it's a few weeks since I did it, but I installed Abiword 2.6.2 (I think it was) in Puppy 2.17 without first removing version 2.4. It seemed to work fine. Subsequently I had to reinstall Puppy (got too overenthusiastic trying to get something else working, I suppose!) and didn't reinstall Abiword because OOo does what I want. Hence my slight vagueness - not only attributable to my age Smile
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RR Koothady

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Coimbatore, India

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2008, 23:39    Post subject: This is Not an issue with Puppy  

Dear Swarupji

This is not an issue with Puppy.

I had noted this elsewhere in this and other threads. The same problem occurs with Tamil and other (I have checked Malayalam) Indic Scripts.

The problem lies with Font rendering in specific applications. Text editors like Geany, Leafpad render them correctly. Notecase also renders them correctly. We are also able to use didi wiki. Osmo personal organiser, GIMP, Inkscape do the job perfectly. However ....

Abiword before 2.6.2, Firefox - before the 3 series give the problem you have noted. Also...

JWM - (Joe's Window Manager) - that comes as a default WM with Puppy, DOES NOT do the job correctly. Instead, I have found Xfce WM and Thunar Filer System - doing the Font Rendering correctly.

The conclusion that I had arrived over the past 45 days is that - for an Indic Puppy - we need Xfce WM, Abi 2.6.2 or higher, and Firefox 3.

You can download abi 2.6.2 and FF 3.05b pets from the following links:

http://puppylinux.ca/ttuuxxx/index.php?dir=programs%2Foffice%2F

http://tekwolf.net/modules/wfdownloads/singlefile.php?cid=6&lid=4

Yes you can install abi 2.6.2 directly. Removing the older one would be desirable. But you will have to use PizzaGood's PetBeGone - I think that can come later. As for now, no problem if you install 2.6.2 directly.

Here is the screenshot of Hi-Baraha and Hi-itans in Abi 2.6.2.

Cheers!

Ramesh

One other note: Word Wrap is also working OK in Abi 2.6.2!
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Swarup

Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 219

PostPosted: Mon 26 May 2008, 00:26    Post subject:  

Whew! What a relief! You are a real life-saver, Rameshji. I've been thinking about this issue all day-- even thinking I might have to switch my plans over to another distro. But now that is all wiped away with one stroke of your pen.

I'll go ahead and download Abiword 2.2, sure.

And regarding the following:
Quote:

JWM - (Joe's Window Manager) - that comes as a default WM with Puppy, DOES NOT do the job correctly. Instead, I have found Xfce WM and Thunar Filer System - doing the Font Rendering correctly.


When you say that JWM does not do the job correctly, does it mean I guess that there are certain applications which when running in JWM do not render correctly, but do render correctly in Xfce? What about Abiword 2.2-- will it render correctly running in JWM? What would be the scenarios or applications in which JWM/Rox filer would fail and Xfce/Thunar would succeed? I guess file naming, and things like that? If there is a post or thread that already addressed this, I could read that.

Again, thanks for the info-- you've put my mind at ease!

Regards,
Swarup
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RR Koothady

Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 247
Location: Coimbatore, India

PostPosted: Mon 26 May 2008, 00:47    Post subject: JWM and Xfce  

Swarupji:

About the Window Managers:

When you want to see Puppy completely in Hindi (or Tamil) you will have to change the locale to hi_IN, (or ta_IN) from the default en_US. When you do this, if you have the translated .mo files in /usr/lib/locale for the whole window manager, the whole WM dialogs and Filer Dialogs appear in your own language. When you do this in JWM - it renders them incorrectly. Xfce renders them correctly.

This question arises only when you want to have your Puppy OS in your own language. However, you can continue with en_US locale and use all applications to type your own language provided SCIM is installed.

About Abiword - the Version is not 2.2 but 2.6..2.

Cheers!

Ramesh
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