Phoenix CE Base Version for next Community Edition

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ecomoney
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#41 Post by ecomoney »

I think your absolutely right about the 4 series community edition, it would detract from the current CE edition (s) development. I have always used CE's because theyre bugfixed and stable, 4.xx series is just not ready yet (neither is 3.xx series for that matter).

I hope Barry will continue his enthusiasm for the 4.xx series, and carry on doing what he does best, creating new and innovative ways of packaging linux, rather than having to go back and spend time bugfixing the 3.xx series.
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tempestuous
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#42 Post by tempestuous »

When I suggested that 214R be used as a base for a future CE version, I didn't mean to create a series2 versus series3 situation.
I was trying to consolidate development of "legacy/stable" versions of Puppy, but I won't be unhappy if the community (Puppy community) chooses to focus on the 3series for CE.

Let's just keep some points in mind: I recall that Barry said he would be happy to see the 3series continue to be developed, but he doesn't intend to get involved. I distinctly remember that Barry's reason for moving on to the 4series was dissatisfaction with Slackware 12 library dependencies. By moving back to the T2 development environment, Barry regains control of how the libraries are compiled.

The 3series has more recent GTK2 and glibc than the 2series, but both series should be considered "legacy" since Puppy4 has still further advanced technical features, particularly those related to its modern kernel.

In terms of the Puppy2 series "slipping behind" technically, I'm revealing some information early by saying that the next release of 214R will have the latest ALSA drivers/libraries, and maybe also updated NTFS support.

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#43 Post by JustGreg »

I think trying to build a "community edition" on Dingo (Puppy 4) is way too early. Dingo is trying out several new things at once, which is difficult. We are up to alpha 6 and I suspect there will be a couple of more.

I have used Puppy 3.01 since it was released. For me, it is a stable version. I have also on the hard drive next to it, Puppy 2.14R1.01. Puppy 2.14R works well. For my Eee PC, the choice of using Puppy 2.14R or Raffy's breeezy (Puppy 2.13) is a hard one. I keep two SD cards, one with each for demonstrations Which one I use is dependent on the person I am showing. To me, either Puppy 2.14R or Puppy 3.01 is a winner.

I think you should decide on the choice of applications. You, as a group, need to decide what is the most user friendly. For example, I always use PFind and never GTKfind. The same way with Pmount versus MUT. I am not trying to say that Pfind is better than GTKfind or Pmount over MUT. For easy of use, having one choice is easier for new users. The other thing is to stay with them. The change from slypheed to Seamonkey set was a problem with the address book. If dingo goes back, I will be looking at my notes to figure out how to do the conversion between the two. Barry's experimentation is good. It tries new approaches and ideas. I do not mind the problems that occur. However, for a new person, having a stable set of applications is a good idea.

Lastly, the community edition is a volunteer effort. I had done a lot of volunteer activities. It is important that the group come to consensus. However, the person doing the work should the 'last say". If you feel that strongly about a feature, then you should do the effort (programming, coding, testing, etc.) to make the feature successful. Otherwise, the people doing the work get discourage and walk away. They end up feeling "being used" for other person's agenda.

The community edition is a great idea. I think have said enough.
Enjoy life, Just Greg
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Everitt
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#44 Post by Everitt »

Ok, seems everyones doing it, so here's my two cents.
The way I see it is this: the 2.x series has been dropped, it is, from an official development point of view, dead in the water. The later versions started to display some wayward tendencies, and then got left behind as we moved into the 3.x series.
The 3.x series is a significant departure from 2.x, that's why it's a full version higher. Barry left 2.x behind. That doesn't mean we have to. 2.14R is, to mymind, not a step back from 2.17, it's a step ahead. Sure, it lacks some of what 2.17 had, but all that can surely (or already has) been added. So it's got an older kernel? Who cares, it works! Personally I see 2.14R as the natural sucessor to 2.17. I think of it more as an unofficial 2.20.
The 3.x series has had one release, and one bugfix. That's not mature, not at all, and that's not CE material. The slackware compatability is nice, but it's a bit like icing without the cake. The series is too unstable ATM. Perhaps we could bring it up to CE standards, but is it worth it. i personally don't think it is.

What I would suggest is this; base this on the latest 2.x release (2.14R), and, if it's ok with Barry, name it something like 2.18CE, or even 2.20CE (my prefernce is for the latter) official development might have stopped, but why should we?
The 3.x series isn't currently being developed but 4.x is looking very promising. I think that if we base this CE on 2.x, and take the time to really pefect it then it might not be that much of a wait for 4.x to be mature. It's early days yet, but we can busy ourselves with 2.x. One thing at a time huh?

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Boo2themoon
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#45 Post by Boo2themoon »

I think it’s a great idea to have a 2xx base CE.
Its had much additional development too with the likes of Pizzapup and Teenpup etc.
So this could be a great chance to consolidate the 2xx before we leave it behind and you move on to the 4xx series CE. By then the 3xx series will have been further developed and you can create a CE for that too.

Obviously the project cannot be called 2.14rce as this implies its older that 2.15ce and its not 3xx based anymore.
So how about Puppy 2008 RCE (retro)?

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#46 Post by ecomoney »

Tempestious, I totally agreee that the "R" part is far more important than the 2.14 part. The amount of bugfixing,driver additions and bugfixing makes 2.14r the most developed 2.xx series so far. Its just more "finished". The Newer Slackware packages would have been nice, but the 2.xx series already has a wealth of packages available to it. Puppy (to my mind) is a starter distro, and care should be taken to ensure that linuxes reputation for rock solid reliability should be evident to new users. They can then make the decision to use other versions of puppy (many many of which are available) or start to use another distro. Ive had to move many of my users onto linux mint xfce edition because or basic bugs (full pup_saves being the main one!) amongst others. 2.14r already has features that were planned for the CE edition (like automounting)...why duplicate effort?

Justgreg, thanks for your input. I totally agree about useability being the key. Pfind is already the default filefinder, although turma is also very powerful for searching within files and thats included in 2.14r too. Ive just heard back from Ttuxxx who is changing a few of the packages in 2.14r. Specifically, the super-fast and very useable Skipstone will be used in place of dillo, xpdf will be replaced by a more bug-free and pwerful ePDFView (as used in 3.xx).

Ok..the name, obviously TS3.03ce cannot be used any more. What it is called is laregly acedemic (its whether it works that counts!) We could keep the "talking stick" part suggested by lobster. Personally I would like something that would give credit to the base's earlier origins, and the work put in by pakt, dougal and tempestious. Upping the version number would make a lot of sense as it would stop the misconception that 2.14r was somehow older and out of date. Perhaps....

Puppy 2.2ce"Phoenix"?

Suggestions...as always...welcome :D



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#47 Post by cthisbear »

Seen the latest developer news.
Omelettes all round....or too late to unscramble yet.

Here was my comment to Barry.

" Ha! Ha!
Barry, you are the last of the jokers.
Good one mate.

There has been a lot of talk on the forum about the next CE...
Talking Stick.....that you would not revisit the 3 series.

I'll have to call you Sidchrome.....you really have thrown a spanner
in the works......not even April the First yet!
Enjoy the trip BK as much as I'm enjoying the laugh. "

Chris

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#48 Post by Lobster »

Image

:D Just when you thought Puppy was boring . . .

At the moment I am suggesting a modular aproach
(first suggested in Puppy 2.03CE which would allow us to use
both versions and then some . . .

Phoenix I like. The stick can be thrown on the fire . . .
I would drop the version numbers altogether . . .

Have sent Robert a PM :)
Last edited by Lobster on Mon 11 Feb 2008, 17:59, edited 1 time in total.
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#49 Post by WhoDo »

cthisbear wrote:Seen the latest developer news.
Omelettes all round....or too late to unscramble yet.
Ha! I love it! :P It looks like we'll have two new CE versions sunny-side up in short order (to borrow your cooking analogy).

I can just imagine Barry chuckling quietly to himself throughout the next 4 weeks. I hope he enjoys his holiday in India. It's a pity he isn't off fossicking, because my guess is that he's left us with a real diamond in the rough. 8)
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#50 Post by SirDuncan »

Huzzah! This is great news. I am downloading the ISO as we speak (err, type). Now if will just have time to test it . . .

What I was getting from his (Barry's) post is that he will be pushing through 3.02, but that he intends to leave the rest of 3.x series development for the community. Am I reading that right?

Speaking of omelettes, now I'm getting kind of hungry.
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Everitt
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#51 Post by Everitt »

SirDuncan wrote: What I was getting from his (Barry's) post is that he will be pushing through 3.02, but that he intends to leave the rest of 3.x series development for the community. Am I reading that right?
That's how I understand it yes. I think the first thing to do is test 3.02, before we make any more decisions.

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#52 Post by ttuuxxx »

Ok since Barry has told us basically in this document to make the next next ce version on puppy 3.0 series does that now finally mean that its a go? And If so, Man I'm happy, and if not damn! lol
ttuuxxx

If you find that it works and would like to work on it, with a view to a final release version, I propose that it be the basis of a Community Edition, with the versions 3.02 - 3.09 being alpha and beta releases, final being 3.10.
The problem for me is that I’m going on holiday for 4 weeks and will be narrowly focussed on a few things, like improving the PETget package manager. Also, the main focus of my attention will continue to be Dingo. So, if anyone wants bring 3.02 to a final release, you’re welcome.

What I can do is upload the complete Unleashed tarball that I used to build 3.02alpha1, but I only have two more days broadband access. Right now it’s Friday afternoon, and my broadband access will be until Sunday morning. So let me know promptly if you want it.

I know that there are proposals for the next CE to be built on other versions, so my offer is just a suggestion.
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v3.02-alpha bug thread started

#53 Post by alienjeff »

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#54 Post by tronkel »

Please remember this is a very big challenge for the community. AFAIK this is the first time that the community will have built a CE version that has started life as an Alpha. The others have been built on final releases. This is a different ball game here. Since we have to get under the hood on this one, people need to be prepared to get their hands dirty with this.

Barry has said that he visualises that 7 pre-releases will be necessary in order to get to 3.10CE final.

People with the necessary skills are required here:
1) Optimised compiling, advanced Bash scripting and all sorts of programming skills.
2) HCI skills: Graphics, GUI design
3) Project Management
4) Distro packaging
5) Documentation
6)Testing
7)Maintenance and service packs
8) Teamaking (Teamaking??)

This one needs to be done right. If you have the desire, the skills and the time, your Puppy needs YOU!!

This one is worth going for, since it will be a classic, and the last of the 3 series Puppies.
Lets get started and lets do it right.

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tronkel
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#55 Post by tronkel »

Just downloaded and set up Unleashed for 302Alpha.

Built a bootable iso without a hitch first time no bother.
Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer

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ecomoney
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#56 Post by ecomoney »

BarryK on 3.02ce:-
The thing to understand about 3.02alpha1 is that it is the same as 3.01. I have updated scripts and added some applications, but all the rest is as before. Same Xorg, same kernel, same modules, same libraries, same everything.
Im happy to know that the 3.xx series is still gong to be developed, I understand it is a technically superior system. 2.14r is the correct version to make a community edition from as from the quote above. From the bug reports so far, 3.02 still suffers from incompatibilities with very common hardware such as i810 graphics, eepro100 based network cards, and from my own test ac97 sounds. This would mean that a 3.02 based ce would be very limited on the amount of computers that it would operate on with "no-hassle", compared with a 2.14r version that does support this hardware. Puppy is a distro that is aimed at new linux users and older hardware.

I understand that there will be a development process, and that the community may be responsible for bugfixing 3.xx series. I thing this is a very promising step forward should it take place.
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ecomoney
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3.02

#57 Post by ecomoney »

BarryK on 3.02ce:-
The thing to understand about 3.02alpha1 is that it is the same as 3.01. I have updated scripts and added some applications, but all the rest is as before. Same Xorg, same kernel, same modules, same libraries, same everything.
Im happy to know that the 3.xx series is still gong to be developed, I understand it is a technically superior system. 2.14r is the correct version to make a community edition from as from the quote above. From the bug reports so far, 3.02 still suffers from incompatibilities with very common hardware such as i810 graphics, eepro100 based network cards, and from my own test ac97 sounds. This would mean that a 3.02 based ce would be very limited on the amount of computers that it would operate on with "no-hassle", compared with a 2.14r version that does support this hardware. Puppy is a distro that is aimed at new linux users and older hardware. In terms of its "usefulness", this rates higher than slackware compatability (although nice).

I understand that there will be a development process, and that the community may be responsible for bugfixing 3.xx series. I thing this is a very promising step forward should it take place. Should this take place, the 3.xx series will be ready for a CE
Last edited by ecomoney on Mon 04 Feb 2008, 04:07, edited 1 time in total.
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#58 Post by Caneri »

I'm in

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