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 Forum index » House Training » Bugs ( Submit bugs )
why is it so difficult to make something _work_ under linux
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merlin026

Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Tue 02 Oct 2007, 08:30    Post subject:  why is it so difficult to make something _work_ under linux
Subject description: No Flash with Opera
 

I just waisted half an hour when Firefox crashed at the end of an online test in Flash.
Opera did not even show the Flash test - just a grey screen.
---
Could someone tell me how to make Flash function under linux - NO technical explanations or source code wanted - NO geek answers please, just the solution in simple Window-user format, please.
---
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cb88


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 1169
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue 02 Oct 2007, 09:08    Post subject:  

sorry to hear that flash crashed on you but that is a known issue with flash and firefox and is really adobe's fault (the maker of flash)

It is a let down to the entire linux community. even barry puppy linux's main developer has downgraded to flash 7 baceuse it is more stable (but less capable)

most likely if you want to get something working in linux you are going to get a technical explination cause...linux is technical

there have been several "fixes" that claim to make flash work but there is not any definitive progress yet

i heard that lighthouse pup has flash nine working with out crashing but not sure since i haven't used it yet

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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Tue 02 Oct 2007, 10:13    Post subject:  

Linux is open-source, flash is closed source. Its the closed source code that has the bug in it. If it were open it would have been fixed a long time ago, but at the moment the open source community are powerless to fix it (not powerless to make a better replacement for it though, google the gnash open source flash project, progressing quickly). The open source software foundation has made replacing flash with an open source equivalent one of their top five priorities. The beauty of open source and the key to its success is that it is possible to fix things without having to rely on

Open Source and linux is a lot more stable and usable than closed source (like apple and Windoze). This is why it is used to power the critical applications on the web and increasingly people are now using it on the desktop too. I would say that installing the operating system and the applications is a lot easier too as you dont need to either hack past security or take out a second mortgage to do it!

Adobe Systems with their poor programming are the culprits behind your wasted half hour. I would suggest you contact the adobe developers at http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/.

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merlin026

Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Tue 02 Oct 2007, 11:44    Post subject: Thank you for your kind replies  

Thank you for the time you have taken to answer to my complaint.
---
I know that linux is lagging behind Windowz, I know about the closed source versus open source uphill battle, and I did find the updated 01 October version of Adobe's Flash player for linux - before writing you I tried to install it and it didn't work (no surprise).
---
I am just getting impatient with the fact that the open source community doesn't seem to see the interest of working more closely together than they seem to be doing right now. One of the reasons of the supremacy of Microsoft may be lying just there: it is one company (as far as I know).
---
Linux and/or GNU developers all seem to pick one distribution or decide to create a new one, and in my opinion that disperses the power of thought.
---
Take a look at Opera, there are 57 (!!!!!!! FIFTY SEVEN !!!!!) different opera versions needed for Opera to work on linux, and they don't even cater for all distributions available on distrowatch.
---
I have embraced the linux world back in December 2003, and I still think it is worthwhile to have an open source alternative to Windowz, yet I get tired of the stumbling.
---
Other examples:
I cannot consult my messages in Skype under linux. That really sucks professionally speaking.
Today I wanted to install Miro (former Democracy player). Even for the major distributions there were still plenty of bugs and installation issues one would have to resolve by oneself.
---
So: who is going to take the lead in this and decide to quit working on some ego project and start working on one of the major distributions like Debian and Gentoo and Fedora and one source based distro. Let there be one distro for each type of package: one RPM based distro (Fedora), one DEB based distro (Debian), one tar.gz based distro and one source based distro. Amen and inshala.
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trapster


Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Posts: 1997
Location: Maine, USA

PostPosted: Tue 02 Oct 2007, 12:14    Post subject:  

Quote:
So: who is going to take the lead in this and decide to quit working on some ego project and start working on one of the major distributions like Debian and Gentoo and Fedora and one source based distro.


Maybe you should...????

It is really hard to complain about something that is free.

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Everitt

Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 331
Location: Leeds,UK or Birmingham, UK

PostPosted: Tue 02 Oct 2007, 12:34    Post subject: Re: Thank you for your kind replies  

merlin026 wrote:
Thank you for the time you have taken to answer to my complaint.
---
I know that linux is lagging behind Windowz, I know about the closed source versus open source uphill battle, and I did find the updated 01 October version of Adobe's Flash player for linux - before writing you I tried to install it and it didn't work (no surprise).

Um, that just isn't the point. Flash is closed source. The only thing stopping it from working is Adobe. Nothing to do with linux.
Quote:

I am just getting impatient with the fact that the open source community doesn't seem to see the interest of working more closely together than they seem to be doing right now. One of the reasons of the supremacy of Microsoft may be lying just there: it is one company (as far as I know).

Microsoft is more than one company...
What, so we're all supposed to get together every few days and sit in a big circle writing code together? Never going to work. The fact of the matter is that OSS is a huge thing, and it caters to a huge range of needs. Would you expect software from you're mobile phone to run on you're TV/Media Centre? Or you're PC? Linux runs on all these. Linux programs can be ported to all these platforms. There is quite simply too much diversity for the original coders to cover everything.
Quote:
Linux and/or GNU developers all seem to pick one distribution or decide to create a new one, and in my opinion that disperses the power of thought.

It's almost as if they have the freedom to do what they need with the code. Who'd have thought, free software giving people the freedom to do as they want. All you need is the time and desire to make it work how you need it. If you have the time and the desire, why would you want to use software that isn't perfectly suited to your needs. Perhaps more would get done if everyone worked on the same project, but then, at the end of the day, we'd have one product, that does one thing.
Quote:
Take a look at Opera, there are 57 (!!!!!!! FIFTY SEVEN !!!!!) different opera versions needed for Opera to work on linux, and they don't even cater for all distributions available on distrowatch.

Do you know why? It's because Opera is closed source. All this precompiled binary stuff is only really in linux to help n00bs get to grips with it. At the end of the day OSS is about OSS, meaning it's default system is source code. It takes maybe 10 minutes to learn to use it, and is just as easy as anything else. All you need to do is switch from the idea of a nanny OS hiding everything from you and doing everything for you to the idea of an OS where you do what YOU want.
Quote:

I have embraced the linux world back in December 2003, and I still think it is worthwhile to have an open source alternative to Windowz, yet I get tired of the stumbling.

I hate to say this, I feel like I'm having a go at you, which I'm not, but learn to run. I've been using linux for a lot less time than you, and I haven't had the troubles you've had, because I realised early on how something like the FSM has to work, and that you simply can't have everything handed to you on a plate. America didn't simply decide one lazy afternoon to be free, they had to fight for it. Don't you think it was worth it though?
Quote:

Other examples:
I cannot consult my messages in Skype under linux. That really sucks professionally speaking.
Today I wanted to install Miro (former Democracy player). Even for the major distributions there were still plenty of bugs and installation issues one would have to resolve by oneself.

Take it up with the skype developers. Anyway, it's yet another closed source app.
So, you think it would be better if it was closed source, or a windows app? Bugs happen. Always. The beauty of OSS is that it lets you fix them, or at least tell others about them, and have the fixed.
Quote:

So: who is going to take the lead in this and decide to quit working on some ego project and start working on one of the major distributions like Debian and Gentoo and Fedora and one source based distro. Let there be one distro for each type of package: one RPM based distro (Fedora), one DEB based distro (Debian), one tar.gz based distro and one source based distro. Amen and inshala.

I really don't think you get this. The FSM isn't about 'sticking it to the man', or getting things without paying for them. It's not about the knight in shining armour gallantly using his open source sword to rid the world of the evil Dr. Gates *maniacal laughter + thunder clap*
It's about freedom. It's about allowing people to do a they please. Freedom like this doesn't come easily, often people have to work long and hard to make things work just the way they want to, but they can!

You're also free to use closed source software, even propriety software like windows. We might not agree, at all, that you should, but we give that freedom too.
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ecomoney


Joined: 25 Nov 2005
Posts: 2183
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Tue 02 Oct 2007, 22:04    Post subject: Skype  

Skype is another buggy closed source application. I suggest using Gizmophone

All linux versions IMHO are more compatible with each other than windows versions are with their peers. This is because their not programmed for a profit motive.

I worked with Windows since version 3.11 as my professional job up until four years ago. Since switching to linux, rode the learning curve I have found what I can do FAR exceeds anything I was capable of using windoze, and it also sits a lot easier with my concience.

Keep on trying with Linux, it requires patience and dedication to retrain, and I assure you it is well worth it!

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SirDuncan


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Tue 02 Oct 2007, 23:12    Post subject: Re: Thank you for your kind replies  

Everitt wrote:
It's not about the knight in shining armour gallantly using his open source sword to rid the world of the evil Dr. Gates *maniacal laughter + thunder clap*


Of course not, we all know swords are hardware and therefore cannot be open source (there's no source code). Besides, we can't have a proper crusade against the Redmond infidels without religious backing.

All joking aside, I may have an answer to the Flash/Firefox problem. At the very least, it worked for me in 2.17. Simply install Glibc 2.4 <http://oucsace.cs.ohiou.edu/~mcleaver/glibc-2.4.tar.gz> using the alien package install option in the PetGet package manager. The package was originally provided by Todd, but I can no longer find the link on his site, so I mirrored it on my university webspace.

I hope that helps.

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merlin026

Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 26

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct 2007, 03:42    Post subject: Tried to install glibc-2.4, folder is empty  

Hi Sir Duncan,

Thank you for your reply, and thanks to the others as well.
Some technical background: I think I have Puppy 2.17.1 (or 2.17) anyway it uses kernel 2.6.21.5.
I just downloaded version 3.00, have to decide yet if I am going to do the upgrade (I guess so).
For now, however, I tried to install glibc-2.4, and this is how I got started:
- clicked on Puppy Package Manager
- clicked on PETget Package Manager
- then I could not find any external package opener, as suggested by Duncan.
So:
- I clicked on the file in ROX,
- selected all files and extracted it
- Result: folder was empty (and error message showed up)
---
So once again something didn't work (for me). Did it give me the feeling of happiness of "Freedom", like some of you put forward to cover up the fact that linux just isn't mainstream ready? No it didn't but am I angry? No, you get used to it. But it still is not my cup of tea if I want to work seriously. My most productive months were the last 11 months, when I was working with a laptop with W. installed on it and somebody else's computer with W. on it.
---
I have been trying to buy a new laptop without W. installed, to get my W. license money back but dealers are fiercely offended and just don't want to hear about it. (Any suggestions are more than welcome). So you see, on the one hand I know the downside of the linux world, and on the other hand I am trying to give it more audience.
---
A couple of years ago I persuaded my boss to make the switch to linux, and he still sticks to it. He has lost all of his wife's work after the last upgrade (Fedora 7), and he doesn't have any or hardly any multimedia tools that work properly, because it doesn't come "out of the box". The printer works, Firefox works (that is to say: he uses it to check his email), and he hasn't installed OpenOffice yet because he is on dial-up. (He upgraded from a live-disc).
---
Good news: his father-in-law (yes the father of the daughter who lost all of her work during the last upgrade) has asked me to install a linux distribution on his computer - dual boot with Windooz. But hey, they are french, they are a bit anarchistic, they like the freedom feeling, they don't really care if it works or not. They like to stumble, a bit like their economy...
---
OK I am going to try to install version 3.00. Thank you Barry & Team. I hope my webcam will work with this version...
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct 2007, 04:31    Post subject: Fix for flash  

There has been a classic fix to the Flash and Firefox problem:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=132885#132885
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=136424#136424

Kal has been posting that fix many times here in the forum.

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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1641
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct 2007, 05:35    Post subject: Re: Tried to install glibc-2.4, folder is empty  

merlin026 wrote:

---
Good news: his father-in-law (yes the father of the daughter who lost all of her work during the last upgrade) has asked me to install a linux distribution on his computer - dual boot with Windooz. But hey, they are french, they are a bit anarchistic, they like the freedom feeling, they don't really care if it works or not. They like to stumble, a bit like their economy...


Got a good chuckle out of the above...

The cultural differences are interesting....My 90 year old mother expects things to work....she laughs(at me) a lot when I try to follow the multi-page instructions to install a fairly simple application(KeePass) in Puppy, and reminds me that when I installed is to that little plug in gizmo(USB Pen Drive) using what she has on her computer(Windows XP), I simply pushed a few keys (unzipped the program to the pen drive) and it worked.

Good thing she never watched me try to remaster my LiveCD version of 2.17.1 ... she probably would be doubled over in amazement that it only took a month or so for someone to discover that 2.17.1 doesn't do something correctly with squashfs ... and then even issuing the suggested command, the DVD burned from the iso doesn't allow puppy to know it's been configured...even though one can watch the changes being saved to the DVD.

And so, there may be many people who never adopt Linux...they don't have the time, or the skills or the patience to master what some folks find to be fascinating.

Thom
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wingruntled

Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 287
Location: Great Lakes

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct 2007, 05:39    Post subject:  

Merlin
Quote:
I am just getting impatient with the fact that the open source community doesn't seem to see the interest of working more closely together than they seem to be doing right now.


Look at it in a different light. Do you know how many different word processors have been written for the Windoze platform that can't read/format each others documents correctly?
A Ton!
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SirDuncan


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct 2007, 16:47    Post subject:  

Sorry, I forgot that it isn't referred to as the "alien package" installer anymore. Click on install, then click on PetGet, then click on the second button that says something about "downloaded Pet package official or unofficial". That should then bring up a dialog where you can select the package.

It should have uncompressed without any problem, so the download may have screwed up. you might try downloading it again if the above method still gives you problems.

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cb88


Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 1169
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct 2007, 17:08    Post subject:  

please note that puppy 3.00 has glibc 2.5 witch is newer than 2.4 therefore you would be downgrading so not sure that is a good idea for 3.00
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SirDuncan


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Wed 03 Oct 2007, 17:49    Post subject:  

No, it would not be good. My suggestion is definitely for 2.17 only, 3.00 should be okay on its own.
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