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raffy
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surprise

#141 Post by raffy »

OK, this is graduate science stuff.
You'll be surprised if ecomoney has some computer science in him. :D

Which reminds me that sometimes after explaining to high school students a few Puppy and Web stuff (which the students have no problem discussing), their teachers come to me and tell me that I've just talked over their heads!

Simplicity is indeed a tough nut to crack. :)

EDIT: Maybe it will be better if ecomoney's instructions are seen in longer form, here.
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Pizzasgood
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#142 Post by Pizzasgood »

Puppy is a pain in the backside by comparison. You just do this, then that, then this, then unzip that, then copy so and so to gobbledy gook, then re boot and copy......etc.
No thanks!
Uhmm... You do know that isn't the normal routine for installing Puppy, just this specific version, right? Normally, Puppy is more like what you described. Actually, better if you stick to LiveCD. Unlike most distros, Puppy can actually run very well from LiveCD, with the only significant annoyances being slightly slower boot times and being "confined" to a save file (though you can access the entirety of the partition in /mnt/home and you can mount the rest of them with MUT, Pmount, or the commandline).

A full install involves popping in the cd, running the installer, clicking several options (which partition, etc), and rebooting. Done.

I prefer the Frugal install myself, which as far as I'm concerned is superior to Full in all instances except kernel compiling and low-ram users. Working around the save-file isn't difficult. Just add a couple symlinks. And it makes for very easy backups.
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richard.a
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#143 Post by richard.a »

cthisbear wrote:Finally got Ecopup...posted from Robert.
---snip--- Anyone interstate with a server - I will post you a copy to upload. ---snip--- PM me..........but only if you can upload it.

Anyone else wll be charged postage.

Chris
Chris I've now downloaded I think 4 times, which I'm happy to do this end of the month as I have 57% of my allocation left with 3 days to go :)

Previous downloads failed to run even though they claimed to checksum.

Will try to remember to let you know... I have an adsl2+ connection with permission from my isp to host (actually I vhost) so have capacity if this one works. Failing which it'll need to be your CD. Have you tried it yet?

Edit #1
If it runs okay it'll be hosted at http://micro-hard.homelinux.net/puppy/Ecopup/ or something similar

My connection stats with an old ADSL1 D-Link switch/router are:
Test 2007-09-27 03:39:23 EST @ speedtest.dslreports.com
2851 / 432 (Kbps)

That was about 5 mins ago, for the exercise.

I have an ADSL2 (+ VOIP +all sorts of gadgets) router/switch waiting to go in when I get "a round tuit". Unfortunately, I'm fresh out of tuits :)

Richard in Adelaide
Last edited by richard.a on Thu 27 Sep 2007, 07:48, edited 1 time in total.
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ecomoney
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Install Problems

#144 Post by ecomoney »

OK, this is graduate science stuff. Why you chose such a complicated distro in the first place is beyond my comprehension.
Yes, I did knock that "tutorial" up five minutes before going to bed. Its something that Ive got so used to doing now I can do it in my sleep. I agree its a difficult thing to learn how to do to begin with if your new to how puppy works, but master it and you can set up an ancient computer in ten minutes with the same level of functionality that would otherwise take about six hours of your time and a lot of hard cash in both hardware and software. I used to set up XP for many local commercial companies, (law firms, BMW dealerships etc etc) and compared with the complexity of doing that and the quality of the end result , this is a absolute doddle - its just less familiar to someone doing it for the first time. And I agree it could and should (and will be) made even easier. :-)
Take PCLOS for instance (or Ubuntu for that matter!), you just put it in the CD, let it run in Live CD mode and then click 'Install'. Finished!
This is exactly what is planned for Ecopup, and it will not come out of Beta until this is implemented. For the moment it still needs to be installed manually as per the instructions above. I will need the help of someone who knows more about writing scripts than I do, but pretty Im sure someone will oblige. There is already someone very clever writing a windows autoinstaller (nearly ready), so you will be able to just insert the disk into a running windows computer and it will copy/unzip the files to the correct locations with a pretty wizard. When its done just restart the computer leaving the cd in and ecopup will come up, take the cd out and windows will come back up, letting the user switch over to using linux full time gradually without losing productivity during the inevitable "learning curve" of switching.
It's no wonder your Comunity Centre manageress prefers Windows!


Ouch!!! hehe!!! She does because thats what shes used to, and she doesnt particularly care for all of the ethical and moral reasons for switching to linux/open source like most individual people out there. She is just interested in results like any other manager. Shes also what I would term a "half empty" person, she gets mad when people come in and cant run their driving test theory cd's and open powerpoint and publisher presentations, rather than being thankfull they can do just about everything else.

We did try running a windows computer on one of the machines at the cybercafe as a comparison. It was set up by someone who came in and volunteered who is the local windows "guru" (he used to work in a local school computer lab). He did a as good job of setting it up and locking it down as can be done with windows, taking about ten hours (as opposed to ten minutes) to install it. It lasted three days before balking out. He set it up twice more before giving up perminantly and now runs ecopup on his own machine at home. Trust me the cybercafe is a harsh environment for any computer system. If it wasnt for puppy linux there wouldnt be a cybercafe, or a hundred odd people in the local neighbourhood with access to the web and IT facilities. Setting up the cybercafe in the first place would take around £600 in software liciencing fees alone per computer, add on to that the cost of hardware needed to run that software at a similar speed and your looking at £1000 per machine. Add onto that around a thousand pounds for the filtering network server, plus an engineers time to set it all up, and your looking at a cool £12,000 for a system with a similar level of functionality, thats without ongoing support costs.
Puppy is a pain in the backside by comparison. You just do this, then that, then this, then unzip that, then copy so and so to gobbledy gook, then re boot and copy......etc.
No thanks!


Please remember also this isnt how standard puppy is installed, just the specific setup of it that Ive found useful in the community centre, and the surrounding neighbourhood.

I can understand your frustration and how you came to write what you did. Ecopup is a beta that still requires work. If you require "instant gratification" then for the moment I suggest you stick with ubuntu or pclinuxOS (if you have the hardware to run it - ecopup, like puppy is designed to run fast on older hardware). Remember most people that work with linux (myself included) are volunteers that have chosen to switch OS's for moral as well as practical reasons. As an ex-"expert" windows user I remember getting frustrated with having to retrain, but the results have been well worth it. Count to ten before posting, and make your comments constructive and you will help not only us, but also make us more willing to help you!!!

@ Raffy -
You'll be surprised if ecomoney has some computer science in him.
Be surprised, My C.V. reads:--

"Btec National Diploma in Computer Science"- Distinction overall mark, also three years of a degree in Business Information Systems at the University of Huddersfield, and a city and guilds level two in Teaching I.T.. - All of it in Windows unfortunetely so the technical details dont apply, just the basic principles lol!!!!
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Hi guys

#145 Post by ecomoney »

While I was posting that unneccisarily lengthy tome in my own and puppy's defence, you posted some more. Many thanks for arranging the distribution of Ecopup. Ive got 3.6tb of monthly download with my servage account but it still overloads nearly every other day, presumably cutting off peoples downloads mid way (which may account for the problems with the result?). It also cuts off all of my other websites (ecomoney.co.uk, scunnymoney.com, jessicasvoice.org.uk etc) and a lot of the photos that are hotlinked through this forum. Ive been very surprised by the demand for this, and Im very grateful for the extra hosting resources you are providing for free. A great many thanks.
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#146 Post by richard.a »

onya mate! (as we say here).

You do a good job of keeping your cool when presented with such remarks. Well done. And you are right, most who write to forums never take much care over how their typing is going to come out. Looking after the cafe and its users would be a fast training exercise too, I'll bet.

Finished burning download #4 (my previous post). Just done a pfix=ram and am waiting...

All the messages look good...

And I can smell the roast in the oven, so won't be able to give more than a cursory evaluation, I'm afraid...

X Org - 1280x1024x16
(91k) - woof-woof -
hey mate, it's "all singing, all dancing" :) :D

I'll put the iso into that directory later, I need to fix some file housekeeping first.

There ya go folkses :) :D

Richard in Adelaide,
home of the fabulous ISP called Internode

Thankyou guys for being tolerant of this old chap in his 70's!!
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whoa!

#147 Post by raffy »

Be surprised, My C.V. reads:

:shock:

CompSci + InfoSystems! Why, you can start teaching us minisys. :wink:
Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? [url=http://puppylinux.info/topic/freeoffice-2012-sfs]Get the sfs (English only)[/url].

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#148 Post by richard.a »

ecomoney,

I wonder if you would be so kind as to reduce to half the size, the resolution of the desktop you posted at the top of the first page at
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=19401
because it is just too hard to try to read the instructions on how to go about the unusual alterations to the install programme? And read the replies that are longer than half a dozen words per line :)

I've installed it to about 7 Gb partition on a larger HDD and would very much like to follow through step by step before posting this iso for download, just to make sure it works.

I'll do a brief cover and explain page for the download because my micro-hard site is designed like a drop-in-centre a sort of one stop shop. It would make no sense to suddenly encounter such a page, and they might stuff up others abilities to download by overload.

Would you like me to ask the webmaster of internode.on.net (my ISP) if he would host it on their ftp site? It's night time here, but I'd need to ask tomorrow as it is Friday then, and this is the land of the great long weekend and Grand Final of the Australian Football League too.

I'd also like to copy and paste your instructions too, as for some people wading through forum pages is too hard :)

I'll be back in a bit, I'll be up for another 3 hours, or maybe nearly 3 hrs :)

Richard
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#149 Post by ecomoney »

Hi, have reduced the screenshot size, and also posted some more detailed instructions on how to install back on the ecopup 0.7 thread here. I would like to keep conversation about ecopup , especially of a more technical nature, there really.

Richard I would love you to arrange another mirror, many thanks. Perhaps you could cut and past the instructions from the link above onto the website? It should really go in a "readme.txt" file on the cd as well.

Im very much looking forward to hearing your views, good and bad, about ecopup.
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#150 Post by dancingdog777 »

ecomoney wrote:.

Good luck and please come back to tell us how you got on with it.
Oooh, it wasn't helful was it?
HairyWill wrote:
dancingdog777 wrote:y

Have you tried puppy's universal installer?
Yes. Four times and it didn't work.
cthisbear wrote:Fantastic that you have succinctly warned me just in the nick of time that
we are all Boofheads. I await more of your posts with bated breath.
To Chris: I didn't call you a drongo (whatever that is!), in fact I wasn't addressing you at all! If you aren't aware of how difficult some others are finding using the distro, how are you going to be able to take it forwards?
You aren't wasting your time, but an easier installer would help Puppy newbies to have a better experience. A measure of patience rather than flying off the handle would help too.

Remarks such as yours have been mentioned several trimes recently in Distro Watch forum http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue ... 0#comments
and most people agree that it doesn't help the Linux community one jot, but in fact drives people back to Windows. Perhaps that's what you want?

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#151 Post by dancingdog777 »

If I can quote Big Pilot on his topic at http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=18297 on Sun May 20, 2007,
"better usabillity. Puppy does most things great but it would only take a small amount of tweaking to make it truly noob-proof. I've suggested a better HD installer in another post."

Despite that Puppy is still difficult to install on a hard drive. As I mentioned above I tried four times and met with four failures.

Now Chris, don't fly off the handle again, it doesn't help any. Instead perhaps you could try to recreate the fault on your own computer, by pretending you are a Puppy newb who is attempting to do a hard drive install. If you can create the fault then perhaps you can offer a solution which would help everyone.

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#152 Post by HairyWill »

dancingdog777 wrote:Yes. Four times and it didn't work.
In the interests of product improvement, which puppy version and did you record any error messages. We might also be able to get it to work for you.
Will
contribute: [url=http://www.puppylinux.org]community website[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/6c3nm6]screenshots[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/6j2gbz]puplets[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/57gykn]wiki[/url], [url=http://tinyurl.com/5dgr83]rss[/url]

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#153 Post by dancingdog777 »

HairyWill wrote:
dancingdog777 wrote:Yes. Four times and it didn't work.
In the interests of product improvement, which puppy version and did you record any error messages. We might also be able to get it to work for you.
It was the version included with ecopup 0.7.1 that the cybercafe uses.
I couldn't understand that it works for them but not for me. Surely they don't boot up each computer from a Live Cd every day do they? As booting the live CD takes well over 5 minutes on my machine (P4 2.66Ghz, with 1Gb RAM) doing all their's would take ages.

Tonight I've d/loaded the latest (94 Mb I think) and will try again.

I'm sorry if my other post offended people, it honestly wasn't intended. Perhaps non Brits (no offence!) think differently and would read my remarks differently.

Puppy looks nice, so nice in fact that I'd like to run it alongside XP, as a dual boot, but if it means I have to boot the 'puter from a floppy disc every time, well, obtaining new floppies is nearly impossible these days since shops no longer stock them.

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#154 Post by dancingdog777 »

Nope, that one won't work either.

I selected Universal installer, was prompted to run Gparted, made the hd a linux swap partion, it said OK finished. I re-booted the computer, ran universal installer again, selected IDE hd, it asked me to confirm, then told me "Nothing to install, did you forget to plug in a flash device". I tried again three times, but it didn't want to play.

Grrr, frustration to the power of 100!!

I've tried and tried and tried, but this distro is obscenely difficult to load.

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#155 Post by HairyWill »

I'm not sure about the advice the universal installer is giving you.
A swap partition is just a place for the OS to dump stuff whilst it is running you can't save stuff to it.
Are you making at least one other normal partition as well?
One sensible partition scheme would be
1) 2-5GB for puppy
2) the rest for data
3) 1-2GB swap
Will
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#156 Post by richard.a »

Hello, dancingdog777,

Interesting that the one you condemn is associated with what you have repeatedly been told is a non-standard version. I'm not attacking you over this observation, my friend.

My success has been 100% on many many installations of standard official releases, from 2.00 through to 2.17, using the standard settings in the standard installer.

Even on the distribution in question with the standard Ver 2.15ce which is what actually installs before you do surgery on the file system to accomodates ecomoney's modifications. (I have yet to do the latter, to prove that I can safely put that download on line as working)

Perhaps you are confusing Grub not booting what menu item you have selected with the actual installation not starting up. The installer advises you to check the /boot/grub/menu.lst for its assumption that vmlinuz and initrd are where it thinks they should be, because it doesn't carry out a search when writing that statement... it expects you to do that, and the installer script advises you to do that, while you are still running in Live Mode.

If it doesn't boot, then restart in Live Mode and go and check out /boot/grub/menu.lst comparing it with the actual locations of those files.


If it still doesn't work after that check, then maybe, depending on what doesn't run, you have a bad downloaded ISO or the burn wasn't good. Many an installation of many Linuxes have been branded as "won't work" because of a badly burned CD (burned too fast perhaps) or a corrupt iso file that was burned.

If all four of your bad installations have been from the same CD burned from the same iso, then that is likely your common factor, not the product.


There are two stages of booting, my friend. And yes, I like PCLinuxOS also, it's a ripper. But a ripper for a different purpose :)

First stage uses the Initialise Ramdisk (initrd) which sets up the ramdisk and copies loading files there. If that works, then the next stage is where those files unzip the compressed linux kernel (which is why it's named vmlinuz - the z on the end points to that.

If that works fine the next step is to see if it gets a Graphical User Interface. That is where the first time it asks you to configure the X-Server which most associate with just the Screen... but it also configures other external peripherals such as pointer (mouse, tablet or pen), keyboard et cetera.

If you already knew all this stuff, please pardon my assumption that you didn't because your comments came across as someone who expected full automation. And no, from experience, even your and my beloved PCLinuxOS requires user input at several times during the process.


The only times the standard puppy installer hasn't worked with me are

1- with incorporating grafpup (which is a different product, based on puppy, but employing slight variations in the filesystem tree), and

2- when adding extra lines to menu.lst for extra boot choices and making a typo with the partition identification on multiple booting scenarii.

Seriously, the installer that we've used for a while, has done a sterling job of getting it right.

Don't think I'm a guru either. My writing perspective has always been KISS, aka Keep it Simple, Stupid which can tend towards verbosity if you set out to avoid long words. I used to write specifically for non-computer-literate draughtsmen who had been dragged screaming into the world of Computer Aided Design and Draughting in what was then Australia's best CAD monthly.

If you are genuinely having all manner of problems running the installer, you may care to PM one of us with exact details.

BTW my four failed attempts had nothing to do with installing. They were download failures - a different ballgame in a different ballpark. Web server bandwidth hiccups in all probability.
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#157 Post by cthisbear »

dancingdog777

" Now Chris, don't fly off the handle again, it doesn't help any. "

Gee....thought I was being nice...must be a bit of the Kelpie in me....

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////

" Despite that Puppy is still difficult to install on a hard drive. As I mentioned above I tried four times and met with four failures. "

Puppy 3.0 beta 2 picked up an old Quantum 4.3 gig ...and worked a treat..
I did select Fat32...Mr Bin?...anyway booted fine....and you can hear that
Hard Drive from down the street....saves me money on Hoon type car exhausts...just run Puppy on that drive in the car....Bewdiful mate.

Chris.

////////////////////////////////////
Edit:
I now have Robert's Ecopup.

Ian, craftybytes, muggins, tempestuous, john biles, WhoDo and fellow Oz
Puppy craftsmen ....I will post you Ecopup free....for your prevous efforts and helpful advice.
If I have missed out any Aussie gurus....within reason...I will also post you a copy.............Gekko - if you are about....PM me if you too want a copy.

Chris

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#158 Post by dancingdog777 »

Ok Chris, must just be the diff between Aussies and us Pommies. Whingeing Poms I think is what we are refered to as!
Whatever, I didn't mean to get "up your nose".

Richard : Thanks for that. Though I've used Linux for about 6 months, I'm not used to a manual install, which is perhaps the way that you need to do it with Puppy. So if I let Gparted format the hard drive as FAT 32, then hit Universal Installer, it should install?

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#159 Post by cthisbear »

dancingdog777:

I installed Ecopup on an old....probably near dead .4.3 gig Quantum hard drive.
Fun and games yes.
I must say that I've done only a few hard drive installs.
Plenty of USB installs that I can usually boot the first time.
And at least once I've had Puppy 2.15CE on USB...no problems.

Ah! But Ecopup.
Strange that I could have a Fat32 formatted partition and Puppy 3.0 beta2
booted perfectly.
Not on your life with Ecopup.
Tried one and all cheats over a few days.
Even set up the pup3.0 installer, moved the Pup3.main files, unzipped
Ecopup files and the new boot files, and tried to boot.
It would boot with the Ecopup CD....so at least I could see what it would look like.

So I decided to go to Plan Z...yeah! pathetic.

2.1 gig first partition...........ext2.
1.6 gig second partition.........Fat32.
400 meg swap file?

Used GParted from Puppy 3.0 Beta 2.....very good tool.
Checked that the Boot Flag was set.

I also used the Puppy 3.0 installer.
I copied all the boot files to a new folder called Pup3 just so I had them
in case I failed again....this included moving the new Pup3 main files,
pup222.sfs? and zdr222.sfs? into that folder so they wouldn't clash.

Unzipped the Ecopup files to that first partition.....including every Puppy 2.15 file.
Copied the unzipped Boot files and overwote 2 files.
Booted...70 seconds....but it is a very old drive.

Oh! happy days.
Alright it was a struggle....I went against most advice...but sometimes
you have to stretch the boundaries.

And I've often spent more time installing XP and making a backup.
Next time it should take all up about 15 - 20 minutes.

And I can well understand why Robert would like someone to make him an installer..Anyway a great distro....Chris

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Perseverence

#160 Post by ecomoney »

I remember asking for advice on how to get puppy to boot from the hard drive, I couldnt work out if the included hard drive installer in stock puppy was broken, or it was just beyond me to get it working. I remember getting "hot under the collar" with what I wrote myself to get advice, which wasnt particularly constructive.

The stock puppy installer is definetely (IMHO) "over-engineered" for most peoples use. I havnt tried editing the universal installer in ecopup, so it is still the same one as the stock 2.15ce. After hearing about all of the trouble it has been causing people, Im considering taking it out altogether, or at least the menu option.

Ive noticed something with puppy (and probably linux in general), and I think it comes down to philosophy. The aim is to get as many people using puppy as possible. The percentages are based on what I have "observed" in the field

At the moment, 99% of computers can be made to work with puppy, 5% of computer users have the skills/patience to do this. This means that about 4.9% of people that try puppy carry on using it.

99% people I know use puppy in just two ways, at least to start with. They either devote an entire computer to it, or they dual boot it with windows xp or 2000 (or in a couple of cases Vista.). 98% of computers can be set up this way without any special boot options (confusing).

If the installer were modified, it would mean two things:-.

1. Many more people would use puppy because they were able to get it working in the first place. They would progress to become power users.
2. A (very) small number of people would not be able to use puppy because the setup wouldnt include the advanced options for them.

The result would be more people using puppy!

As I mentioned I hope to write (or preferably have written because it will take a lot of time for me to learn to write) an installer program for when ecopup is booted. It will have an "install" icon on the desktop when ecopup is booted for the first time, which is the easiest method, and also the method that people will be used to if they have experimented with other linuxes (puppy is currently at only 17 on distrowatch so Im assuming people will have tried many others first).

The desktop icon will launch a window with three options:-

Code: Select all

[b]Ecopup is currently running in a cutdown "live" mode, you can install it fully in many ways, here are the main ones"[/b]

1. "Dual Boot" - Set up this computer to work with Ecopup, as well as the system that is already installed (i.e. windows). Dont interfere with how the current system is set up in any way. To start ecopup I will need to have the cd in the cd drive, like it is now (why must I do this? [link]). I will take it out and restart to use the system I already have.

2. "Use entire computer" - Entirely wipe this computer of all of its information and any system currently on it. It will start with ecopup when I switch it on and I will not need the cd any more (so I can lend it to my friends! ;-) ).

3. "Do an advanced install" - Ecopup is based on puppy linux, and it has inherited many "magical" abilities from it. It can boot from a pendrive (memory stick), a zip disk, on a rewriteable cd. Setting this up can be complicated so if your new to Ecopup use one  of the other two methods until you feel comfortable.
Option 1 will unzip the ecopup.zip file to hda1, and copy the .sfs files (pup_215.sfs and zdrv_215.sfs) to the hard disk. After this has been done, a dialog will pop up to ask if they want to reboot into the newly installed operating system no or carry on using the livecd.

Option 2 will format the entire computer to ext2 (secure data shredding will be useful here for recycling operations), it will copy the files as in option 1, and also install Grub and unzip the boot.zip folder onto the hard disk. The computer will be bootable totally into ecopup (as it happens with or without the cd in).

Option 3 will start the stock puppy installer.

Conclusion
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Now people here will say that this option wouldnt work in x,y, or z case. True, and it would work in the majority of cases. Meaning that more people try it would use it and get hooked on linux straight away. More people would "technically" not have computers that would work, but cant get it working for technical or useablily reasons both add up to the same thing - NOT WORKING!!!!

To cite another example, look at Debian vs Ubuntu. The reason so many more people use Ubuntu than Debian (What ubuntu is based on) is because its immediately usable by the most people (not on the most computers). Since puppy will run on even more computers than Ubuntu (Ive trialled both) without forcing the user to give up what they have already got, its only the useablility factor that keeps it at number 17.
Puppy Linux's [url=http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=296352#296352]Mission[/url]

Sorry, my server is down atm!

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