Questions re hd install: frugal vs full, and which format?
Yes, indeed, 97T. But you can't just swap between OSes on a dual-boot machine that is running - you have to reboot and select from the GRUB menu. In the time it takes to do that you might as well swap drives on caddies if the trouble&strife won't allow two boxes in your personal office, den, corner, shed, garage, doghaus. Instead of a Man for all Seasons approach, though, I advocate the concept of Proper Tools for the work at hand, ie half-a-dozen old boxes to run your compact distro and experimental stuff and a legacy box in the corner to run the defective Redmond suite. It's not as if you'll need to spend her shopping allowance on more boxes; your neighbours, friends and relations will pay you to take away kit that will be entirely happy running Puppy, DSL, Austrumi, etc. Then, all it takes is a network hub or wi-fi and a 15w hi-D switchbox or KVM.
What's Google?jonyo wrote:What's the diff with ext2, ext3 & reis..somethin..? A few options come up in gparted.
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NinerSevenTango
- Posts: 186
- Joined: Sun 17 Jun 2007, 18:25
There's the consideration of power consumption. The oldest, slowest, lowest-power machine I have uses about 50 watts at idle (while I'm browsing the web for instance,) which is the same amount of power its newer sibling with a much faster CPU consumes under the same conditions. I suspect that if a computer is actually doing work most of the time, a new, fast computer will use less total energy to do the same job as an old, slow computer. The new multiple-core CPUs may use less power than old CPUs under all conditions. I don't know about their chipsets though.
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jonyo
Thanks, here's the wiki page: FrugalvsFullinstallSit Heel Speak wrote:If you think a wiki entry would be useful, then OK, but don't add a bunch of technical material about the initrd and pupmode and Hans Reiser's legal problems and so on. And preface it with this:klu9 wrote:...Would it be OK to edit & copy it to the Puppy wiki?
"I wrote this essay in mid-2007 in the hope that it will help new users of Puppy Linux to make informed decisions with confidence, when using partitioning software and the Puppy Universal Installer for the first time. --SHS."
I left out the filesystem stuff (maybe could be put on a separate page) and did some minor editing.
In particular, could you or anyone confirm my "Short Version" comparison of the two install options is correct? Also I've written it's for hard drives, but does it also apply to flash drive installs?
I do not disagree with SHS conclusions regarding Frugal v. Full Install, especially the bit about dual booting with Windows.
However, I think SHS is confused about the usage of pup_save.2fs. These three paragraphs need rewriting:
QUOTE
On a frugal install, they are placed inside a single file, the pup_save.2fs file, which itself contains an ext2 filesystem into which the Linux / dir is placed, with its subdirs inside it--the pup_save contains your full Puppy distro, minus the kernel itself (vmlinuz) and the initial ramdisk (initrd.gz). Thus you can conveniently back up everything to for example a USB key, by simply copying /mnt/home/pup_save.2fs plus vmlinuz plus initrd and your grub or linload bootloader marker and config files to the key (plus zdrv_2xx.sfs if you need it).
On a full hard disk install, pup_save.2fs does not contain the full contents of your Puppy distro, just any changes and additions you've made. vmlinuz is (usually) in /boot, firefox is in /usr/bin and so forth. On a frugal install vmlinuz is outside of pup_save.2fs somewhere on the "real" filesystem. firefox in frugal is also in /usr/bin, but /usr/bin itself is not directly on the disk but rather is in /initrd/pup_rw which in reality is pup_save.2fs on the disk's "real" filesystem, "union'ed" into the overall Linux / directory tree using special Puppy magic.
To avoid problems which might be caused by sudden power outages, Barry sees to it by means of a daemon that all work is saved at fixed, frequent intervals to the pup_save.2fs in the frugal install. I'm not sure how it works in the full hdd install. Don't know if there's a safety net or not.
UNQUOTE
From reading Barry's 'How Puppy Works take 2, I would suggest usage of puppy files is as follows:
On a full hard disk install there is no pupsave.2fs at all! All reads and writes are directly to the Linux filesystem on the hard drive.
On a frugal install, (and when operating Puppy from the CD), the pupsave.2fs is used to write CHANGES to any portion of the linux filesystem. (This is much like SHS says in the second paragraph but there he was referring to a full hard disk install - where a pupsave.2fs file does not exist).
On a frugal install the pup_xxx.sfs file holds the unchanged parts of the linux file system and is still important. The pupsave.2fs does NOT contain the whole Puppy distro as stated in SHS's first paragraph. You therefore need a copy of the pup_xxx.sfs file as well as all the other files SHS mentioned for the backup. However, you only have to update your backup copy of the pupsave.2fs to maintain the backup, as all the other files remain unchanged.
Another thing about the SHS first paragraph is that it says the linux / and all subdirectories are stored in the pupsave.2fs file. This is actually the wrong way round. The contents of the pupsave.2fs are layered onto the / of the linux filesystem. This is done by the unionfs or aufs system.
I get totally confused about the SHS second paragraph. vmlinuz is usually in /boot? I thought vmlinuz is the Linux kernel. On a frugal it might be in /boot on the real file system. The comment about /user/bin being in initrd/pup_rw is also a bit odd or maybe just a bit confusing. The initrd directory holds the contents of the initrd.gz (initial RAM disk on bootup). This makes it accessible after the pivot root occurs before the second stage of the boot process although it is only useful for developers. No applications added by the user will apear in here.
I am not sure about the SHS third paragraph. It may be right for a frugal install. Writes occur to the pupsave.2fs file directly but how often they are written from cache is unknown to me. As I said earlier there is no pupsave.2fs file on a full hard disk install. One thing I do know is that when the pupsave.2fs file is on a flashdrive then Barry does indeed use a tempory file in RAM for storage of changes. This is then saved to pupsave.2fs at fixed intervals to minimise the number of writes to the flash drive. Is this what SHS was referring to?
To sum up I think there are serious flaws in the referenced three paragraphs. I wouldn't care if it was solely in this thread. However, it has now been copied to the Wiki where everyone will take it as the truth. These paragraphs need amendment or removal from the wiki. I prefer the latter with perhaps a reference to Barry's How Puppy Works take 2 for users who really want to know how the file system works. I am not sure how the subtleties of pupsave.2fs and pup_xxxx.sfs help to make an informed decision on whether to do a frugal or do a full hard disk install.
With regard to the Wiki entry I wonder about the 'Short Version' comments on ease of upgrade. I have never used a full install, but I would have thought, when you have added your own applications, some people would think they are easier to upgrade than frugals . I guess this is a subjective judgement.
ICPUG
However, I think SHS is confused about the usage of pup_save.2fs. These three paragraphs need rewriting:
QUOTE
On a frugal install, they are placed inside a single file, the pup_save.2fs file, which itself contains an ext2 filesystem into which the Linux / dir is placed, with its subdirs inside it--the pup_save contains your full Puppy distro, minus the kernel itself (vmlinuz) and the initial ramdisk (initrd.gz). Thus you can conveniently back up everything to for example a USB key, by simply copying /mnt/home/pup_save.2fs plus vmlinuz plus initrd and your grub or linload bootloader marker and config files to the key (plus zdrv_2xx.sfs if you need it).
On a full hard disk install, pup_save.2fs does not contain the full contents of your Puppy distro, just any changes and additions you've made. vmlinuz is (usually) in /boot, firefox is in /usr/bin and so forth. On a frugal install vmlinuz is outside of pup_save.2fs somewhere on the "real" filesystem. firefox in frugal is also in /usr/bin, but /usr/bin itself is not directly on the disk but rather is in /initrd/pup_rw which in reality is pup_save.2fs on the disk's "real" filesystem, "union'ed" into the overall Linux / directory tree using special Puppy magic.
To avoid problems which might be caused by sudden power outages, Barry sees to it by means of a daemon that all work is saved at fixed, frequent intervals to the pup_save.2fs in the frugal install. I'm not sure how it works in the full hdd install. Don't know if there's a safety net or not.
UNQUOTE
From reading Barry's 'How Puppy Works take 2, I would suggest usage of puppy files is as follows:
On a full hard disk install there is no pupsave.2fs at all! All reads and writes are directly to the Linux filesystem on the hard drive.
On a frugal install, (and when operating Puppy from the CD), the pupsave.2fs is used to write CHANGES to any portion of the linux filesystem. (This is much like SHS says in the second paragraph but there he was referring to a full hard disk install - where a pupsave.2fs file does not exist).
On a frugal install the pup_xxx.sfs file holds the unchanged parts of the linux file system and is still important. The pupsave.2fs does NOT contain the whole Puppy distro as stated in SHS's first paragraph. You therefore need a copy of the pup_xxx.sfs file as well as all the other files SHS mentioned for the backup. However, you only have to update your backup copy of the pupsave.2fs to maintain the backup, as all the other files remain unchanged.
Another thing about the SHS first paragraph is that it says the linux / and all subdirectories are stored in the pupsave.2fs file. This is actually the wrong way round. The contents of the pupsave.2fs are layered onto the / of the linux filesystem. This is done by the unionfs or aufs system.
I get totally confused about the SHS second paragraph. vmlinuz is usually in /boot? I thought vmlinuz is the Linux kernel. On a frugal it might be in /boot on the real file system. The comment about /user/bin being in initrd/pup_rw is also a bit odd or maybe just a bit confusing. The initrd directory holds the contents of the initrd.gz (initial RAM disk on bootup). This makes it accessible after the pivot root occurs before the second stage of the boot process although it is only useful for developers. No applications added by the user will apear in here.
I am not sure about the SHS third paragraph. It may be right for a frugal install. Writes occur to the pupsave.2fs file directly but how often they are written from cache is unknown to me. As I said earlier there is no pupsave.2fs file on a full hard disk install. One thing I do know is that when the pupsave.2fs file is on a flashdrive then Barry does indeed use a tempory file in RAM for storage of changes. This is then saved to pupsave.2fs at fixed intervals to minimise the number of writes to the flash drive. Is this what SHS was referring to?
To sum up I think there are serious flaws in the referenced three paragraphs. I wouldn't care if it was solely in this thread. However, it has now been copied to the Wiki where everyone will take it as the truth. These paragraphs need amendment or removal from the wiki. I prefer the latter with perhaps a reference to Barry's How Puppy Works take 2 for users who really want to know how the file system works. I am not sure how the subtleties of pupsave.2fs and pup_xxxx.sfs help to make an informed decision on whether to do a frugal or do a full hard disk install.
With regard to the Wiki entry I wonder about the 'Short Version' comments on ease of upgrade. I have never used a full install, but I would have thought, when you have added your own applications, some people would think they are easier to upgrade than frugals . I guess this is a subjective judgement.
ICPUG
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Sit Heel Speak
- Posts: 2595
- Joined: Fri 31 Mar 2006, 03:22
- Location: downwind
Sorry for the delay in answering, as I had to handle a multi-day household emergency. I would like Barry to weigh in on this. I believe "How Puppy Works" needs an overhaul.ICPUG wrote:However, I think SHS is confused about the usage of pup_save.2fs...From reading Barry's 'How Puppy Works take 2, I would suggest usage of puppy files is as follows...
If you use PUI (Puppy's Universal Installer) to create a full hdd install in 2.17, Puppy at shutdown does ask whether to create a pup_save.2fs. If you say yes, and then reboot into this full install, you can't use rox to mount its pup_save.2fs; you get an error message that it is already mounted and in use by Puppy.
If you use rox to mount the pup_save.2fs from another full hdd install (on another partition), you will see that inside the pup_save.2fs on a full hdd install are the subdirs /etc, /initrd, /lib, /lost+found, /root, and /usr. This led me to the conclusion that this pup_save.2fs is indeed, on a full hdd install, where your personal changes are stored.
vmlinuz is placed in /boot by PUI when doing a full hdd install. Just like in SuSE and Gentoo and I would guess the majority of other full hdd Linux installs.
You may be right; it just dawned on me, I have always created my frugal installs by manually unpacking the .iso. I have never created a frugal install with PUI. Nor have I ever created a frugal install on anything other than a vfat partition.On a frugal it might be in /boot on the real file system.
Late at night here, and I have had an exhausting last three days. I will have to come back and look at it in 24.
Klu9, perhaps you'd better withdraw that new wiki page until this is all straightened out.
SHS
Thanks for the background info. I now totally understand your comments re vmlinuz. Your original words are right. I got myself confused on this one.
Your experience with finding pupsave.2fs on your full hard drive install is very strange considering what 'How Puppy Works' said, but practical experience is much better than words! I have raised a question in the User's section. Hopefully Barry will answer.
I am sure pupsave.2fs works as I said in a frugal setup though.
ICPUG
Thanks for the background info. I now totally understand your comments re vmlinuz. Your original words are right. I got myself confused on this one.
Your experience with finding pupsave.2fs on your full hard drive install is very strange considering what 'How Puppy Works' said, but practical experience is much better than words! I have raised a question in the User's section. Hopefully Barry will answer.
I am sure pupsave.2fs works as I said in a frugal setup though.
ICPUG
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Sit Heel Speak
- Posts: 2595
- Joined: Fri 31 Mar 2006, 03:22
- Location: downwind
Yeah, but as explained in the other thread you started, I'm convinced now that the pup_save.2fs is not really used; or, rather, some daemons and/or scripts do write into it, and it is auto-mounted if present, but only because the daemons and/or scripts and the init sequence are all hard-coded to mount and write-into the pup_save if one is present, without considering whether they are running from within a normal hdd install or not--therefore they never consider, whether they should write into pup_save or into the regular / directory tree, because the case of the normal hdd install was not considered when written--Puppy was never intended to be run as a full normal install.
The fact that a pup_save.2fs is createable at all in a normal hdd install, is (I believe) in essence nothing more or less than a design oversight in Puppy Universal Installer.
Bedtime for Bonzo here, I will return and revise the above essay in 24.
The fact that a pup_save.2fs is createable at all in a normal hdd install, is (I believe) in essence nothing more or less than a design oversight in Puppy Universal Installer.
Bedtime for Bonzo here, I will return and revise the above essay in 24.
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_MegadetH_
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Sun 28 Sep 2008, 10:23
- Location: Italy
I'm new to PuppyLinux. I read wiki and threads here. I still have some doubts.
I quote comparison from wiki:
"* A Full install runs faster in low-RAM computers; but is very complex/impossible to upgrade (you wipe and replace with a new version of Puppy) and cannot be placed on a Windows FAT32 or NTFS hard drive/partition."
1) Why full install is complex/impossible to upgrade?
"If however you have enough ram for the particular Puppy version, a frugal install is better, because almost everything (i.e. everything in pup_xxx.sfs, but NOT pup_save.2fs) is loaded into ram, therefore called from ram, therefore loads faster."
2) I've 320Mb ram, frugal could be ok, but what happens if I open lot of programs and they fill the whole 320Mb ram I've? Does puppy use Hd memory when ram is full loaded by processes?
I quote comparison from wiki:
"* A Full install runs faster in low-RAM computers; but is very complex/impossible to upgrade (you wipe and replace with a new version of Puppy) and cannot be placed on a Windows FAT32 or NTFS hard drive/partition."
1) Why full install is complex/impossible to upgrade?
"If however you have enough ram for the particular Puppy version, a frugal install is better, because almost everything (i.e. everything in pup_xxx.sfs, but NOT pup_save.2fs) is loaded into ram, therefore called from ram, therefore loads faster."
2) I've 320Mb ram, frugal could be ok, but what happens if I open lot of programs and they fill the whole 320Mb ram I've? Does puppy use Hd memory when ram is full loaded by processes?
Hi Megadeth and welcome to the Puppy Kennels 
Sorry that it's taken so long for someone to reply to your questions my friend. Sometimes we don't see the question, or sometimes we don't know the answers, etc. As it is, I don't know the exact answers to each of your questions but I'll try my best until someone with far more knowledge comes around, okie?
As to the first question: A frugal install is much easier to upgrade as it only involves taking a few files off from the CD which you have made of the new Puppy version .iso and placing them onto the hard drive where the older-version files were. Then you would use your grub file to start up the frugal install of Puppy in the normal way, Puppy would "see" your "pup_save.2fs" file and upgrade that to the newer version---saving your changes in "/tmp" for anything you would like to replace. (Normally it leaves your software which you've installed alone unless it has a newer version of it, etc.)
But if you have a hard drive install? That's a different story. In the past though BarryK used to have Puppy set up so that it could even update a hard drive install. That was a really nice feature! I thought so anyway. You simply placed the new disk in your CD drive and started with a special command (if I recall correctly) and it found Puppy and asked if you wished to upgrade to the new version. Like the frugal install, this too saved your changes in "/tmp".
I do not know if this second manner of upgrade is done anymore though? Seems so it was done in the 2 Series of Puppy. And of course!---like anything that touches your install---there was always a chance for corrupting your data, just like when installing software from GSlapt into Slackware or from Synaptic into Debian, right? There's always that small chance when finished you won't have a system left. (How I remember those times only TOO WELL!)
Now to your second question? This I CAN answer very easily because I do have a frugal install running as I write this.
Make sure that when you do a frugal install that you have what is called a "Linux-swap partition" on your hard drive. Myself? I use the "PartedMagic" CD to make mine as it has a much improved version of GParted on it as compared to the one found in Puppy. But be very careful as partitioning software can ruin hard drives in the hands of the inexperienced. Even I make sure I triple and quadruple check all my settings before I press the "Apply" button and I never resize a reiserfs formatted partition!! The one and only time I did that I lost my entire drive and had to blank/reformat from scratch all over again. 
Once you have a Linux-swap partition (usually made about twice the size of your RAM) then Puppy will automagically "see and mount it" when booting up. If you fill up your RAM with too many apps then it should---theoretically---start using the swap partition such as mine is doing at this moment by 10megs.
A lot of words and advice. I hope this all helped in some small way my friend? Once again: Welcome to Puppy and we hope to see you here more often!
Amicalement/Cheers!
Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"
Sorry that it's taken so long for someone to reply to your questions my friend. Sometimes we don't see the question, or sometimes we don't know the answers, etc. As it is, I don't know the exact answers to each of your questions but I'll try my best until someone with far more knowledge comes around, okie?
As to the first question: A frugal install is much easier to upgrade as it only involves taking a few files off from the CD which you have made of the new Puppy version .iso and placing them onto the hard drive where the older-version files were. Then you would use your grub file to start up the frugal install of Puppy in the normal way, Puppy would "see" your "pup_save.2fs" file and upgrade that to the newer version---saving your changes in "/tmp" for anything you would like to replace. (Normally it leaves your software which you've installed alone unless it has a newer version of it, etc.)
But if you have a hard drive install? That's a different story. In the past though BarryK used to have Puppy set up so that it could even update a hard drive install. That was a really nice feature! I thought so anyway. You simply placed the new disk in your CD drive and started with a special command (if I recall correctly) and it found Puppy and asked if you wished to upgrade to the new version. Like the frugal install, this too saved your changes in "/tmp".
I do not know if this second manner of upgrade is done anymore though? Seems so it was done in the 2 Series of Puppy. And of course!---like anything that touches your install---there was always a chance for corrupting your data, just like when installing software from GSlapt into Slackware or from Synaptic into Debian, right? There's always that small chance when finished you won't have a system left. (How I remember those times only TOO WELL!)
Now to your second question? This I CAN answer very easily because I do have a frugal install running as I write this.
Make sure that when you do a frugal install that you have what is called a "Linux-swap partition" on your hard drive. Myself? I use the "PartedMagic" CD to make mine as it has a much improved version of GParted on it as compared to the one found in Puppy. But be very careful as partitioning software can ruin hard drives in the hands of the inexperienced. Even I make sure I triple and quadruple check all my settings before I press the "Apply" button and I never resize a reiserfs formatted partition!! The one and only time I did that I lost my entire drive and had to blank/reformat from scratch all over again. Once you have a Linux-swap partition (usually made about twice the size of your RAM) then Puppy will automagically "see and mount it" when booting up. If you fill up your RAM with too many apps then it should---theoretically---start using the swap partition such as mine is doing at this moment by 10megs.
A lot of words and advice. I hope this all helped in some small way my friend? Once again: Welcome to Puppy and we hope to see you here more often!
Amicalement/Cheers!
Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"
*~*~*~*~*~*
Proud user of LXpup and 3-Headed Dog.
*~*~*~*~*~*
Proud user of LXpup and 3-Headed Dog.
*~*~*~*~*~*
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_MegadetH_
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Sun 28 Sep 2008, 10:23
- Location: Italy
Hi Eyes-only! Thank you for helpful informations, you're very kind!
Sorry for delay, but I couldn't reply before, I had a travel.
Finally I got my full hd installation with some problems with Grub at the beginning, but in the end I solved Grub problem!
Now i discovered the "power" of swap. I've 320Mb Ram and I made a 640Mb swap partition. Strange thing is that in the bar near the clock I see "714M free icon" and not 960M (320Mb of real ram + 640M swap).
Comparing to Live cd with full Hd I noticed a lesser speed to open Seamonkey (few seconds), but the good point is having more free ram to run bigger apps.
To make partitions I used Gparted, it was ok. I "played" a bit with it formatting and resizing partitions. I hope it didn't ruin my hd. You talked about not resizing reiserf partitions. I don't know that format, I formatted my partitions in ext2 I hope it has nothing to do with reiserf.
Anyways I'm loving Puppy Linux! It runs very fast and is stable! Yeah, I will come back to check forum, it is very friendly.
Not always in other linux forum pro-users are as much friendly with newbies as here!:)
Cheers my friend!
A bientot!
Sorry for delay, but I couldn't reply before, I had a travel.
Finally I got my full hd installation with some problems with Grub at the beginning, but in the end I solved Grub problem!
Now i discovered the "power" of swap. I've 320Mb Ram and I made a 640Mb swap partition. Strange thing is that in the bar near the clock I see "714M free icon" and not 960M (320Mb of real ram + 640M swap).
Comparing to Live cd with full Hd I noticed a lesser speed to open Seamonkey (few seconds), but the good point is having more free ram to run bigger apps.
To make partitions I used Gparted, it was ok. I "played" a bit with it formatting and resizing partitions. I hope it didn't ruin my hd. You talked about not resizing reiserf partitions. I don't know that format, I formatted my partitions in ext2 I hope it has nothing to do with reiserf.
Anyways I'm loving Puppy Linux! It runs very fast and is stable! Yeah, I will come back to check forum, it is very friendly.
Not always in other linux forum pro-users are as much friendly with newbies as here!:)
Cheers my friend!
A bientot!
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Béèm
- Posts: 11763
- Joined: Wed 22 Nov 2006, 00:47
- Location: Brussels IBM Thinkpad R40, 256MB, 20GB, WiFi ipw2100. Frugal Lin'N'Win
The figure in there has nothing to do with available ram, but with available personal space._MegadetH_ wrote:Now i discovered the "power" of swap. I've 320Mb Ram and I made a 640Mb swap partition. Strange thing is that in the bar near the clock I see "714M free icon" and not 960M (320Mb of real ram + 640M swap)
In frugal install it indicates how much is left in the pup_save. In a full HD (at least in my case) it indicates how much is left on the HDD. I have a 6GB HDD and the applet says 5,2GB free.
To see about ram/swap you can type the command free in a rxvt terminal.
Time savers:
Find packages in a snap and install using Puppy Package Manager (Menu).
[url=http://puppylinux.org/wikka/HomePage]Consult Wikka[/url]
Use peppyy's [url=http://wellminded.com/puppy/pupsearch.html]puppysearch[/url]
Find packages in a snap and install using Puppy Package Manager (Menu).
[url=http://puppylinux.org/wikka/HomePage]Consult Wikka[/url]
Use peppyy's [url=http://wellminded.com/puppy/pupsearch.html]puppysearch[/url]
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_MegadetH_
- Posts: 221
- Joined: Sun 28 Sep 2008, 10:23
- Location: Italy
Thanks Béèm, I though it was free hd space, but an image in wiki here http://www.puppylinux.org/wiki/archives ... ses/puppy2 confused me. Tthey wrote Ram space above that icon, but reading details it was refered to storage.Béèm wrote:The figure in there has nothing to do with available ram, but with available personal space._MegadetH_ wrote:Now i discovered the "power" of swap. I've 320Mb Ram and I made a 640Mb swap partition. Strange thing is that in the bar near the clock I see "714M free icon" and not 960M (320Mb of real ram + 640M swap)
In frugal install it indicates how much is left in the pup_save. In a full HD (at least in my case) it indicates how much is left on the HDD. I have a 6GB HDD and the applet says 5,2GB free.
To see about ram/swap you can type the command free in a rxvt terminal.
That free command is very useful, I should find a terminal command list somewhere.