Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Fri 24 Oct 2014, 13:26
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Questions re hd install: frugal vs full, and which format?
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
Page 1 of 3 Posts_count   Goto page: 1, 2, 3 Next
Author Message
fishvetmj

Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 05:05    Post_subject:  Questions re hd install: frugal vs full, and which format?  

hi. I have installed Puppy (frugal install) onto an ext2 partition on my hard drive, with Xp still iinstalled on an ntfs partition. Puppy is working ok. 2 questions:
what is the difference between frugal and full install?
does it matter what format the partition on which I save my data to is formatted to (currently ntfs)?

thanks
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
gerry

Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 946
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 06:31    Post_subject:  

I have a similar question: OK, I can see what a frugal install is, but why do it?

And I've read "Puppy on a Hard Disk", but the section on partitioning says that you need a partition with a Linux file system: EXT2, EXT3, or REISERFS. Any of these? Or one particular one?
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Sage

Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 4797
Location: GB

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 06:39    Post_subject:  

Frugal merely dumps the compressed files from CD to HD. HD access is faster. It is easier to update these compressed files and retain the older ones by renaming them. I never use Frugal.
The Full install decompresses all the files and they can be manipulated, moved, edited, deleted, copied, w.h.y. just like any regular file. I use this with ext2, which is simpler, but doesn't contain all the internal filechecking garbage - it does it periodically during booting at intervals determined by Barry.
Old HDs can be found lying around all over the planet. Anything over ~512Mb is suitable to get Puppy running. If you plan to store lots of large e.g. picture files, a bigger HD is advantageous, but smart cookies will be dropping these onto CD/DVD for safety anyway!
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
jonyo

Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 2727

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 09:50    Post_subject:  

Sage wrote:
I never use Frugal


Curious why?
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Sage

Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 4797
Location: GB

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 10:49    Post_subject:  

Can't see any point. I either use the liveCD or a full install.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
jonyo

Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 2727

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 10:53    Post_subject:  

What are the benefits of frugal supposed to be? I've only run live cd thus far but lookin to do an install soon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11121
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 11:23    Post_subject:  

I have only run Puppy from a multisession DVD, or a CD with a save file on hd, but I believe the main advantage of a frugal install is ease of upgrade - and repair, should that be necessary. Smile

I don't think it matters much which format you use for a storage partition, though it makes sense that Puppy's native format (ext2) would be the most reliable for Puppy. I have saved a lot of mp3 files on a portable hd which I formatted NTFS so I could use it to share files with Linux and Windows. This has worked well except that occasionally Windows reports that a directory which was created by Puppy has been moved or deleted, when Puppy can still see the contents of that directory.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
jonyo

Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 2727

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 12:12    Post_subject:  

What's the diff with ext2, ext3 & reis..somethin..? A few options come up in gparted.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Sit Heel Speak


Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2595
Location: downwind

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 14:20    Post_subject:  

This is a thumbnail summary of *my understanding* of How Puppy Works, to which the reader is referred for a fuller technical picture. It is at
http://www.puppyos.com/development/howpuppyworks.html

***EDITED Aug 13 2007; when I first wrote this, I was under the mistaken impression, owing to the quirks described further down in this thread and at
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=20798
that a pup_save.2fs file is used in a normal hdd install, in the same fashion as in a coexist hdd install. I have removed the paragraphs here in which I conveyed this mistaken idea.***

1. Filesystems in a Nutshell

ext2 is the original Linux filesystem.

ext3 is ext2 with journalling, that is, it keeps track continuously of every change made. In the event of a sudden power outage, with ext2 you lose filechanges made since the last save. With ext3 there is a good chance that fsck (FileSystemChecK) can recover the changes even if the files were not saved.

reiserfs (also known as reiserfs3) is like ext3 but with the added ability to pack files into the tail end of clusters containing other files. This adds about 10% to the disk's effective storage capacity. Reiserfs also contains an advanced seek algorithm. It speeds up filename searches as much as 50% over ext2 or ext3. Reiserfs is the standard, default filesystem in SuSE and Xandros.

On a "coexist" hdd install (the reason for the name is explained below), reiserfs doesn't make any difference. On a "normal" hard disk install (similar in architecture to a normal Linux distro) it does. PFind runs faster. Large applications load faster. Web pages, if called-up a second time in the session, are retrieved from disk cache faster.

ext4 and reiserfs4 are new advancements which add support for automatic defragging, extended access controls for security, and support for business environments. As of this writing, Puppy does not yet support ext4 and reiserfs4.

2. The Two Types of Puppy HDD Install

On a normal hdd install, the conventional Linux filesystem subdir inodes /bin, /boot, /dev, /etc, /lib, /mnt, /opt, /proc, /root, /sbin, /sys, /tmp, /usr, and /var are placed straight onto the disk, and mounted at boot time under the top Linux directory /.

On a coexist hdd install, the conventional subdir /boot does not exist. The other Linux subdir inodes are contained inside the compressed core distro file pup_xxx.sfs, and if modifications are made to the contents, the modifications are stored in a similar subdir structure inside pup_save.2fs. Pup_save.2fs itself contains an ext2 filesystem (some early Puppy 2.xx versions used an ext3 filesystem and .3fs extension, but problems arose) within which these Linux subdirs can be stored.

The contents of pup_save.2fs and pup_xxx.sfs are merged via the unionfs file mounting system, with more-recently-installed files in pup_save.2fs taking precedence, that is, eclipsing (rendering invisible) their as-originally-supplied same-name counterparts in pup_xxx.sfs. Pup_save.2fs is not used in a normal hdd install; rather, more recently installed files directly overwrite the ones they replace.

On a normal hdd install, vmlinuz is (like in other distros) in /boot, firefox is in /usr/bin and so forth, as in an ordinary Linux distro.

On a coexist hdd install, vmlinuz is outside of pup_save.2fs somewhere on the "real" filesystem. Firefox in a coexist install is also in /usr/bin, but /usr/bin itself is not directly on the disk but rather is stored in compressed form either within pup_xxx.sfs, or within pup_save.2fs if any new content (e.g. an updated version of firefox) has been added.

3. Which Type of Install is for Me?

A coexist hdd install (also known for historical reasons as a "frugal" or "poor man's" install), is so-called because you can place it on the same partition as a pre-existing Win98 install; pup_save.2fs, though it itself contains an ext2 filesystem, can reside on a vfat (fat32) partition. Some have reportedly succeeded in placing it on an ntfs partition alongside an XP install.

By contrast, you can't place a normal hdd install on a pre-existing vfat or ntfs partition, because these Microsoft filesystems do not support Linux symlinks. You must place a normal hdd install on an already-partitioned, already-formatted ext2, ext3, or reiserfs partition.

A normal hdd install is the type many people prefer on a computer with not enough ram to hold Puppy, say Puppy 2.15CE and only 192MB of ram, because programs and data can be mounted from disk--no need to occupy ram.

A normal hdd install is also preferred by many developers. One reason for this is that the space available for compiling is equal to the remaining size of the partition, rather than the fixed size of pup_save.2fs.

If you have enough ram to load the contents of initrd.gz, plus the contents of pup_xxx.sfs, plus the contents of pup_save.2fs, then a frugal install may be your choice, since everything is already in ram and therefore starts faster.

If you have fast newer disks and plenty of ram, frugal loses its speed advantage. On a P3-1GHz machine with 1GB of ram and udma5 hard disks, there is no material performance difference between a coexist hdd install and a normal hdd install, provided the normal hdd install is on a reiserfs partition.

On a P3-800 laptop with only a slower udma2 hard disk, there is a great deal of difference. If you have such a slow hard disk and enough ram to hold Puppy, e.g. 256MB, then the frugal install is the better choice.

The coexist hdd install also has the advantage that special add-on packages, with extension .sfs, such as Open Office, can be added to Puppy simply by copying the .sfs file into /mnt/home and rebooting, or by copying into / and using the BootManager to specify which packages to automatically mount at boot time. The use of .sfs packages under a normal hdd install requires a more complicated technical procedure.

If you want to dual-boot Puppy alongside Windows without repartitioning, then the frugal install is your choice.

Either type of install may be helped, if ram is low, by use of a swap partition. Puppy will automatically find and use one if present.

***END***

HTH,
SHS

Edited_times_total
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
hankyknot

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 14:34    Post_subject: The cool thing about doing both...  

After having many problems installing puppy to hard disk I now have a regular process which I follow that so far has never caused any problems.

It involes a full install on hda1 and a frugal install on hda2. One thing I have found with this is if I get carried away and screw up the whole thing I can just boot to frugal and reinstall hda1 from there.

I would like to know if there is a way to backup that saved changes from hda1 from each session to hda3 for example so after reinstalling I can just restore the changes from a previous session.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
jonyo

Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 2727

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 18:34    Post_subject:  

thx mucho SHS Exclamation very nice.. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Eyes-Only


Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 1046
Location: La Confederation Abenaquaise

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 21:19    Post_subject:  

I'd like to thank you for that as well SHS, a very nice and precise dissertation on the various filesystems and their pros & cons without having to sift through tonnes of data which the rest of us who've only been in this for a short time, or for other reasons (like myself), never would've been able to really fathom.

In fact, I found this info, and how it all relates to Puppy/Puppy installs, so fascinating that I've copied it out to save to a .txt file for future reference (and properly attributed to you should I ever need it in the future for quotes).

I very seldom come into "Beginners" as I'm in the other sections seeing where Puppy's going. Sure glad I clicked in here tonight though!

Thanks a lot again SHS for taking the time to write all that out! It was very much appreciated indeed!

Amicalement,

Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"

_________________
*~*~*~*~*~*
Proud user of LXpup and 3-Headed Dog. Cool
*~*~*~*~*~*
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
jonyo

Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 2727

PostPosted: Sat 04 Aug 2007, 21:38    Post_subject:  

Eyes-Only wrote:
I very seldom come into "Beginners" as I'm in the other sections seeing where Puppy's going. Sure glad I clicked in here tonight though!


An they say ya can't teach an ol' dawg new tricks Razz Wink Smile

Amicalement,
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Sage

Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 4797
Location: GB

PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug 2007, 02:25    Post_subject:  

Nicely written, SHS. Perhaps too much information for fishy & gerry? You didn't mention the possible Reiser support issue!
The only items I might contend with you are considerations of using Puppy with state-of-the-art kit and 'duel' booting. The whole point of promoting the new generation of compact distros so heavily was, originally, to resurrect those old boxes lurking under the bed, resting in a skip or junked in the local amenity site, thus saving landfill. Going back even further, Hr Knopper's masterpiece was only intended to acts as a demonstration for Linux, but rapidly became a repair tool to achieve things that evil one could not/would not offer himself. As for the latest shiny lamps from the likes of Mr Dell, I've heard that one can even run M$ stuff on them! I see little value in dual booting with so many old HD s available gratis. That such a choice can only lead to tears is amply demonstrated within this forum! Caddies, SHS, caddies....
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Flash
Official Dog Handler


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 11121
Location: Arizona USA

PostPosted: Sun 05 Aug 2007, 11:24    Post_subject:  

Eyes-Only wrote:
... I very seldom come into "Beginners" as I'm in the other sections seeing where Puppy's going. ...

See what you've been missing? Smile

Having to explain things so that a motivated beginner can understand them clarifies the thinking of an expert, benefitting both. Helping out in the Beginners forum is good for old hands, and browsing it can be educational for anyone.

Sage, not to speak for Barry, but I get the impression that the main reason he developed Puppy as a compact OS wasn't to rescue old computers from the junk heap. It's great that Puppy does that, but it hardly demonstrates Puppy's talent and potential. I think Puppy is what an operating system should be for any computer, fast and nimble. It's hard to be that way if you're big and fat. As proof, consider multisession Puppy on a DVD. Try doing that with Knoppix or Windows XP. Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Display_posts:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 3 Posts_count   Goto page: 1, 2, 3 Next
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
 Forum index » House Training » Beginners Help ( Start Here)
Jump to:  

Rules_post_cannot
Rules_reply_cannot
Rules_edit_cannot
Rules_delete_cannot
Rules_vote_cannot
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.1052s ][ Queries: 12 (0.0138s) ][ GZIP on ]