Puppy Linux 2.17 has already been released...

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Lobster
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MU's contribution to Puppy is overwhelming

#41 Post by Lobster »

What no rich Puppys willing to support coders? Tsk tsk must be sending their monies to IBM, Ubuntu, Mandriva, Novell etc :)

MU's contribution to Puppy is overwhelming, recently slowed by the need to pay rent and food via his new job . . .

Paypal payment on MU's Puppy site for the philanthropic
http://dotpups.de/
Last edited by Lobster on Mon 23 Jul 2007, 00:59, edited 1 time in total.
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
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BarryK
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#42 Post by BarryK »

MU wrote:So our work for Puppy is not like the work for a company, but more a somewhat "chaotic, creative" way of throwing together things ;)
Yes indeed! I'm not interested in running the project "properly". I'm just having fun. If a group of people want a distro that follows all the rules, longer testing schedules, more formal submission such as SVN, better bug reporting mechanism (yes, there is a bug reporting thingy, but I have only logged in a couple of times, can't be bothered) -- those people are welcome to organise their own fork of Puppy, call it 'doggy' or something.

I don't want to put down Gekko, Dougal, or anyone else who has criticized me, as they all have valid points. But again, if anyone wants the project to be run more formally, go and do it as a fork -- I will be very happy. Those who want the "wild ride" can keep using Puppy -- I'm already working on radical new ideas for Puppy3.

However, there is something wrong with what I've been doing. If I want to run this project a certain way, then I do need to clarify it up front. I think that there needs to be a page, probably linked off the main Developer page, that outlines how the project is run, or rather not run, so anyone considering coming on-board cannot complain afterward. I think Nathan is doing a good job with Grafpup, which is a fork, and he is probably more amenable for proper project planning and implementation -- so anyone can contribute there if they want -- good ideas from Grafpup will find their way back into Puppy anyway. The problem for Nathan though is he has a job and young family, which limits his input to Grafpup.

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#43 Post by Lobster »

I'm already working on radical new ideas for Puppy3.
8)

What Puppy is about can probably go here
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/AboutPuppy

Interestingly they use a 'developer run riot' based system at Google.
Are they evil yet or still innovating?
http://www.google.com/ig

Looking forward to Puppy 3
Voice recognition and a 3D interface would be good - maybe for Puppy 4 . . .

Puppy stays frisky 8)
Last edited by Lobster on Sun 22 Jul 2007, 08:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Gekko
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#44 Post by Gekko »

All I can say to the above replies is this: ROFLMAO.

I'm sorry I ever contributed anything to Puppy Linux. I did my best to make it more structured, but it's like talking to a brick wall, except the wall gives more recognition. The bug tracker is now closed.

Barry, it's all downhill from here. Enjoy.

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#45 Post by WhoDo »

Gekko wrote:I'm sorry I ever contributed anything to Puppy Linux. I did my best to make it more structured, but it's like talking to a brick wall, except the wall gives more recognition. The bug tracker is now closed.
I'm truly sorry you feel your efforts were not appreciated, Gekko. I certainly appreciated the help when debugging 2.15CE over an Alpha, 2 x Betas, 3 x RC's and a Final release.

The problem here is that the structure you may want impose is fine, but it MUST fit within the ethos of the overall development effort. IOW, it's no good complaining that you're always dealing with a new baby ... that's the nature of a maternity wing! Now within that predetermined structure, you could try to find some order in dealing with the inevitable problems.

Asking the Chairman of the Board to change the hospital ward from a maternity wing into a geriatric wing just doesn't make it! That certainly doesn't mean your other efforts at restructuring aren't worthwhile. Diapers are a boon in either situation, aren't they? :P
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#46 Post by iscraigh »

I appreciated Gekko and Dougal. The difference between them as I read it is that Dougal recognizes that puppy is Barry's and modifies it to suite his needs, giving back to the community @ large and giving Barry useful changes that he may or may not include in future versions. Gekko wants Barry to change how he runs puppy. I think Gekko should consider his own distro (puppy based or otherwise) much like grafpup. Then he could run with it and contribute back to the community and take from the community.

I am a happy puppy

Craig

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#47 Post by john biles »

I have a strange feeling that Barry K has some how found a way to digitally drug this version of Linux he calls Puppy.
As I'm Addicted and if I try and play with other versions of Linux, I don't get that same high.
I need my daily fix of Puppy to keep me going.

All I can say is that I am more excited by the propect of Puppy 3 coming out than KDE4

What screenshots and video's I've seen of KDE4 don't excite me, but this won't stop me trying it when it comes out. Also it's their vision of what a Desktop should be, so good for them.

So BARRY K do what ever you please and I like so many others on this forum, will enjoy what ever you decide to give us.

Finally Gekko as I've said privately before maybe it time for "Gekko Linux 2007" that way you could release it every year. I know you have the talent to do it, I for one would like to try what you come up with. :D
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

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#48 Post by Getnikar »

Gekko wrote:All I can say to the above replies is this: ROFLMAO.

I'm sorry I ever contributed anything to Puppy Linux. I did my best to make it more structured, but it's like talking to a brick wall,
Well, despite my disagreement with your argument yesterday, I am in concurrence with the above sentiment. I always look for how any project or organisation conducts itself in terms of being organised and co-ordinated, at least to some degree, before expending effort much there. I just do not have the time on something where the wheels will fall off -

- as soon as a key person leaves, because there is no system to keep it going,
- each time the environment changes, eg new protocols/technologies/kernels etc enter its environment.

I am sure there are more people than Gekko out there hoping and assuming that Puppy will co-exist with their ongoing parallel projects that depend on it. I am sure more people are going to get upset in the future, when it dawns on them that Barry is NOT running his project to cater for them. He's running it to produce something that at any point in time is a cool solution for anyone coming into linux, and maybe who have limited requirements. (Barrys statement will flesh this out I am sure.) The fact that it works somewhat beyond his scope should not be taken that there is any explicit intention in this regard by Barry.

Barrys statement that he will declare how Puppy is and is not run clearly, so there can be no complaints, is to be applauded. Its a good and probably overdue step in the right direction. Its also the fundamental task in any new project. Anyone with any understanding of Quality, and the practical benefit of intelligent use of a method (often termed 'project methodology') would know this. Its embodied in a task called something like 'Define Scope'.

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#49 Post by Getnikar »

Not that I am suggesting this, and I know some here equate being organised with bureaucracy (a common corporate upshot of trying to be organised).
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#50 Post by John Doe »

@ Getnikar & Gekko

you 2 to need double check a couple things.

this "barry is a dictator" and/or "holds the key" shit needs to stop.

there are many people here who could rebuild this project thanks to barry.

he's fathered this thing to the point where it's never going to die.

p.s. love Dilbert :lol:

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#51 Post by Getnikar »

John Doe wrote:this "barry is a dictator" and/or "holds the key" shit needs to stop.
Is your definition of 'sh**' something/anything you do not agree with?

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#52 Post by Dougal »

WhoDo wrote:The fact that Barry, and you and Pizzasgood and MU all "work alone" doesn't preclude you working to resolve issues that you each understand and want solved, even if informally as in this case.

The "problem" mentioned was in having a single access to current software for download and installation. Barry is the PETget person, MU is the PSI person, Pizzasgood is the Pet-be-gone person and you, well you slipped in there because I understood you were working on underlying scripts that might have an impact. Guess I got that part wrong.
My point was that there is no such effort taking place.

I suggested a new package-management system be created a long time ago, but there was no interest in it. that is since the general attitude towards progress here is to just stumble along, trying to make little fixes and improvements, rather than start afresh (think E16 vs. E17).

Barry isn't actively developing PetGet and I don't think MU is working on PSI -- they exist and work, but there's no grand plan to get things a certain way.

And I don't care that there is no such plan. I would have preferred to get package management sorted out once and for all, since that's how I prefer to do things, but Barry works differently and its his choice.

What I don't understand is why people keep panicking about what's going on with Puppy, making all these dramatic posts, threatening to leave -- I thought we had seen the last of that when Kenny left.

Puppy is just an OS. No-one is going to die as a result of what Barry does or doesn't do.
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#53 Post by Dougal »

BarryK wrote:I don't want to put down Gekko, Dougal, or anyone else who has criticized me, as they all have valid points.
I wasn't criticizing. I was stating some facts. I expect people around here to be mature enough to be able to handle conflicting opinions.
The problem is that, as you can see from this thread, that is not the case -- and so you end up looking at all of us as if we were some primary-school class...
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#54 Post by Dougal »

Gekko wrote:All I can say to the above replies is this: ROFLMAO.

I'm sorry I ever contributed anything to Puppy Linux. I did my best to make it more structured, but it's like talking to a brick wall, except the wall gives more recognition. The bug tracker is now closed.

Barry, it's all downhill from here. Enjoy.
I don't know what "ROFLMAO" means, but I assume you are in disagreement with what people said.

So what? What has that got to do with using/contributing to Puppy?
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#55 Post by MU »

Dougal, don't forget Nathan :)
PSI is just a grafical interface, but it internally uses tools written by others.
For example one of the first versions of Nathans pkgtool.

So we could need some curious people that test newer pkgtools from the new grafpup2 for Puppy, and mabe create a .pet of it with some slight adaptions for Puppy.
Then it would be relatively easy to update PSI to use this updated version.

I think people sometimes oversee, how fast Puppy develops.
Packagemanagers in Suse or Redhat are updated once a year, or more seldom, because those distros appear in 6 month or 1 year cycles.
Puppy releases appear every 2 month.
So people might wonder: "oh a new release, but no new packagemanager?".

Another thing is, that Packagemanagers do not rely on Barry, Nathan, or me.
They are even easier to modify than for example RPM by others, as they are simple scripts, not complicated C code.
They do not rely on persons, they rely on how lazy or enthusiastic the community supports them by applying changes!
For example PSI uses code contributed by Kenneth (the mirror-script).

I often wish, my programs would be "hacked" more often by others.
I'm good in creating a basic infrastructure of a program, so you have something working to start with. But I don't have so much time, to extend them in detail then over a longer period. So I hope, we can interest more coders to contribute patches and updates.

btw., I really do appreciate all the efforts you contribute to puppy :D

Mark
Last edited by MU on Sun 22 Jul 2007, 11:23, edited 1 time in total.

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#56 Post by MU »

I don't know what "ROFLMAO" means,
http://www.acronymfinder.com/af-query.a ... &Find=Find

Cheers, Mark

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#57 Post by WhoDo »

Dougal wrote:My point was that there is no such effort taking place.
Hmmm... then you wouldn't have noticed that PET packages now appear in PSI? And you wouldn't have been privy to Pizzasgood's posts about working on Pet-be-gone? And you really do have a keyhole camera in Barry's donga at Perenjori, too? :P

The effort is there, Dougal, if you are willing to see it in all its disjointed glory. I never suggested any "grand plan". That is simply not in the nature of Puppy's development processes. I just said there were team members working on it ... over time ... as the mood and time allows. If you want an improved package management system, why not have at it yourself? You're way beyond most with scripts, I believe. I'm sure Barry, MU, Pizzasgood and others, including myself, would be grateful if you did. Just a thought.
Last edited by WhoDo on Sun 22 Jul 2007, 11:33, edited 1 time in total.
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#58 Post by joki »

i should say from the off that this is defo not a dig. im happy with pup - i just think those w/o *nix skills will likely have trouble doing moderately advanced things with puppy.

i too sympatise with Gekko. however i *hate* the full-on formal development process (ergo my 9-5 often drives me nuts) but when you have a forum area called "bugs" and encourage ppl to post and beta test (on release/final isos) then formal acknowledgement/recording of the bugs is common decency.

imo, all but one of the facets of puppy dev can be performed without a dog collar and leash. A bug tracker is essential - it's acknowledgement to the reporter (literally and in the sense of "we value our user's feedback") I've personally reported problems - there's been no official ack of the bugs so am i to assume they dont exist despite other users reporting similar? (thinking specifically of the 2.16 psubdir). 2.17 didnt work out the box in this respect so think i'll skip 217 - even though i would've liked to try and see if flash9/pupp217/opera9.22 works (another 'kinda bug' reported)

one possible reason why some regular forum members are at odds with the lack of formalism: puppy's getting too good and ppl are starting to think it's in the premier league alongside ubuntu/rh etc

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#59 Post by BarryK »

Gekko wrote:The bug tracker is now closed.
Yes, I expected that you would be thoroughly cheesed off and react that way. Understandable.

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#60 Post by alienjeff »

In one breath, BarryK wrote:yes, there is a bug reporting thingy, but I have only logged in a couple of times, can't be bothered
Bug reporting thingy? Can't be bothered?
yet in nearly the very next he wrote:I don't want to put down Gekko ...
You may not have wanted to, but you did.

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