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vtpup
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#3021 Post by vtpup »

Tried (found uuid from blkid):

Code: Select all

title Linux Mint
  uuid 2ddb8fb2-7e71-4833-91a8-9f8c21edcc7c
  kernel /vmlinuz root=/dev/sda8 ro 
  initrd /initrd.img
  boot 
It did put up a message that it had found the uuid and aliased it as dev/sda8 (all correctly) but then said Error 15 File Not Found.

So...... I think it doesn't like (follow) those links in Mint.

I can see why they are there.,.. it's a convenient way of changing kernels to just point the link at whatever kernelx.xxxx is to be used. But this grub doesn't like either the link, OR the fact that the real kernel is one directory deeper. Might be the latter. Will have to test.....
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mikeslr
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#3022 Post by mikeslr »

When in doubt, cheat. :lol:

Rather than trying to figure out how to manually edit menu.lst, as you already have Bionicpup64 on the hard-drive --assuming you can boot into it-- do so, then run menu>setup>grub4dos and re-install grub4dos to the hard-drive. Let grub4dos figure out how to write its menu.lst. That's how I originally got the listing for Linux Mint.

If that doesn't work, then we'll have to figure out what not playing well.

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Keef
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#3023 Post by Keef »

Couple of thoughts...
Either alter the path in menu.lst eg:

Code: Select all

title Linux Mint
 uuid 2ddb8fb2-7e71-4833-91a8-9f8c21edcc7c
  kernel /boot/vmlinuz root=/dev/sda8 ro
  initrd /boot/initrd.img 
(using symlinks in the same directory should work)

Or:
Just run grub4dosconfig, and it will generate a menu entry for you. Backup your menu.lst first of course.

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vtpup
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#3024 Post by vtpup »

Thanks Mike. Before I saw your latest message I tried a few things.....same result. I'm wondering now whether the fact that it is an ext4 partition is the problem. Maybe my (old?) Grub can't handle ext4.

in /boot/grub there look to be drivers with the suffix ....stage1_5 I bet I don't have a driver for ext4.

I guess I'll try you grub4dos in Bionicpup idea. First I'll make a backup of my boot folder, just in case -- prior bad experiences!
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#3025 Post by vtpup »

Thanks Keef, just saw your note -- same idea.... had tried the links in same (boot directory) no joy..........well here we go.....new grub4dos
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vtpup
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#3026 Post by vtpup »

Yipes!

Base Win7 did not like Grub4Dos at all -- went into something called "Acer RecoveryConsole" with three choices: 1.) restore machine to factory defaults (and lose user data), 2.)restore with user data moved to C:\Backup, or 3.) Exit.

I chose 3 because who knows what "user data" means to Acer, or Winn7: docs, programs, settings, or what? Also, who knows if it will try to re-format the rest of the drive.....uh no thanks. Been there done that. Not a fan of automatic "fixers" like that.

So, luckily I had done a screenshot of the last screen of Grub4Dos, giving the command for restoring the old MBR. Went back into Bionicpup64 and ran that command in terminal, and we're back to normal start-up and Windows again. Phew!

I did sneak a peek at the Mint stanza before I restored the system. Grub4Dos had it as:

Code: Select all

root (hd0,7)
kernel \vmlinuz root=\devsda8 ro
initrd \initrd.img
I think it was backslashes, like that instead of forward slashes, but not sure. But the stanza itself looked similar to what I've already tried.

Other than the slash issue, I'm really thinking the problem is just a lack of a driver in grub for ext4 filesystems. I either need the missing driver, or could possibly move the Mint files to an ext3 or ext2 partition.
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vtpup
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#3027 Post by vtpup »

Yup, it was the ext4 partition that was the issue.

I copied the Mint files on that partition to a new ext2 partition, adjusted the menu.lst entry to point there and the Mint system went on to boot. Or try to boot -- got about a minute into it when it hung up. Obviously just copying files isn't an ideal way to install an OS like this (permissions and ownerships might change), etc.

But it was a quick and dirty test, and it did prove that my legacy grub system is missing the driver for ext4 filesystems.

Here is the content of my boot/grub/ folder......notice the entries with "stage1_5" pretty certain guess that they are file-system drivers and I need an updated one or one explicitly for ext4.

Now where would I find something like that?
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#3028 Post by vtpup »

Sorry about the monologue here, but maybe someone else sometime will find this useful.

Found this on a CentOS website:
Grub from CentOS 5 doesn't work with ext4fs. More precisely, it can't read the 256-byte inodes that ext4fs uses by default.

There are two possible solutions:

Use Grub from CentOS 6, which works properly with ext4fs.

Create an ext4 file system with 128-byte inodes, by using the command mkfs.ext4 -I 128. This will mean that some capabilities of ext4fs won't be available.
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ras
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#3029 Post by ras »

Base Win7 did not like Grub4Dos at all
Now where would I find something like that?
wouldn't it be easier to troubleshoot why grub4dos will not boot W7?
RAS

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#3030 Post by vtpup »

Uh messing with Windows at that level is not a real fun idea for me. I'd rather let sleeping hogs lie. I use Win7 for very few things, maybe a few times a year.

Incidentally Grub4Dos uses legacy Grub, not Grub2, gleaned from my recent readings, and it's no longer maintained. Which explains why menu.lst is in both, and not in Grub2. Not sure why Grub4Dos can access ext4 file system (if it can) while my legacy Grub can't. But at this point I'm giving up.
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Baldronicus
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#3031 Post by Baldronicus »

Hi vtpup.

First off, please accept my apologies for any mistakes that might arise in the following. I am usually running on autopilot with a toppled gyro, but I seem to be even worse at the moment.

I realise that you have "given up" on the Linux Mint install, but there are some things that I seem to have to butt in with (apologies for that too if it is not wanted or not of any use).

If I understand correctly the Mint install was intended as a "look and see" type setup, not an on-going, long term arrangement. No desire to install Grub2 to the MBR, as the current Legacy Grub install works with both Win7 and puppies etc. Further, the current Mint installation has not had the Grub2 boot loader installed anywhere? Also, if I understand correctly, the Legacy Grub boot loader is back in a working configuration.

It has been a long while since I have attempted to install Mint. However I do sometimes boot Debian, chain loading Grub2 from either Grub Legacy (either the older or the 2013 version) and Grub4Dos. Thing is, though, that it means that Grub2 has be installed. When using the "legacy (including G4D)" as "lead loader" approach, this means installing Grub2 to the root of a partition. This is something that is not recommended for it, due to the possibility of corruption of the boot loader files (during file system checks ?- not sure) (if I understand correctly). Some installers don't permit it for this reason (perhaps among others). With Debian I often use a separate boot partition in the hope it might help with this, but I don't know if I am deluding myself.

If this does change your thinking with respect to Mint, then I guess the first question would be do you know if the Mint Installer would allow you to install Grub2 to the root of a partition? If not, then this option is probably another no-go in your case.
If it can, then the next question, I guess, is are you prepared to re-install Mint? If not, does someone here know how to install Grub2 to the root of the existing partition? Actually does Mint run as a live DVD, and would that give you an option? Although the installation to the root of the partition might not be the preferred/correct approach it seems to work, and if this is just a short-term thing then maybe it wouldn't be of much concern. (I don't like to write it, but I haven't noticed any issues with the Debian installs).

I am already being overly verbose, but another thought, if you wanted to use the uuid approach (or, not sure if G4D supports labels as well?) might be to install G4D to the root of yet another small, maybe 8MB (probably really doesn't even need to be that large) partition following the Mint one, if you have the space and partition capacity available. I am not positive, but I think if G4D is installed to the root of a partition (not the first one, and maybe not number 10) then it might still search the whole drive. Again, rusty with this and not sure. This probably wouldn't be overly desirable anyway as it would mean a double chain load. (See what I mean about my head? Probably best to ignore this paragraph).

Thanks.

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#3032 Post by vtpup »

Thanks Baldronicus, and you are spot on re. the steps taken so far and the restoration of the existing system. I mainly decided to quit here because I don't want to co-opt this thread.

But if this discussion is helpful or useful for someone else dealing with problems in side-by side-installation of "Other Distros" then maybe we could continue for a bit re. Grub, Grub2, and Grub4Dos. If there aren't objections?

I had a problem simply adding a new Mint full install to my existing system which included Win7, and multiple frugal Puppies on a legacy Grub controlled start-up process. I'm not sure how I initially got that Grub system set up -- though I'm sure it was through some instructions here on the forum, probably 8 years ago when the computer was new. Racy was the original OS installed.

I should say also that from time to time I have also added (and later removed) "temporary" or "test" full installs of other linux OS's, and they worked with the Grub I had already.

The new Mint install attempt was the exception. I was fooled by the "File Not Found" error wording into thinking that a problem lay in the Grub Mint startup stanza, or in the program links to /boot/ that Mint uses in / for vmlinuz and initrd.img. None of the above were the actual problem.

The problem was that the Grub legacy version I was using could not handle the ext4 filesystem that Mint was installed to. My Grub version only can handle ext2 and ext3. And probably if I had installed Mint to an existing ext3 partition, all would have gone well.

On looking into things more deeply I have discovered that legacy Grub was at some point modified to be able to access ext4. But I don't have that version. I also discovered that Grub4Dos is based on legacy Grub, not Grub2. And the legacy grub it installs, I believe, IS able to access ext4.

However installing Grub4Dos on my system rewrote MBR and temporarily broke Win 7 on this computer (Acer 5349) and forced a recovery mode on Win startup.

I reverted the system, and it is back to how it worked originally.

In answer to your questions yes there is a live Mint ISO and in fact I've used it from USB Thumbdrive. However it's slower than a HD install (USB2 only on this machine) and it doesn't have persistent saves. So every time you use it you have to re-load settings, programs etc.

I did actually try to make a persistent version on thumbdrive with a program called mkusb, but it didn't seem to work to actually make persistent saves.

At about that time I gave up on the Mint on a stick project, and just decided to do a conventional HD install. I still think it would be a cool thing to be able to make a persistent USB version on a thumb drive, and maybe somebody else would be interested in giving it a try with mkusb. Maybe I just didn't know how to make it work.

I also tried doing a conventional install on a second thumb drive while using the live version to do the install. This was very interesting. It actually worked. I had to turn on the boot flag for that thumbdrive's partition (using Gparted) but it booted right up (slowly).

More interesting to me, though was the fact that it's Grub boot screen gave a choice to start my HD's version of Mint. That worked, so I now had a workarond for starting the internal Mint, using the thumbdrive just as a boot stick.

Finally, here is tsome information I have found for using legacy Grub with ext4 -- something I am not capable of yet, but would like to be i if someone else has a path to that capability:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugrepo ... =511121#27

and from Wikipedia:
Google Summer of Code 2008 had a project to support GRUB legacy to boot from ext4 formatted partitions.[28]
My guess is that the version of legacyGrub in Grub4Dos contains this change. I wonder if it is simply an additional driver to the ext2,3 driver -- or a modified version supporting all three?

Well enough for now.....
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#3033 Post by vtpup »

Can someone who has installed a grub4dos system post a list of files sizes and dates in the /mnt/home/boot/grub folder like mine (below)?

Just curious about any dif .....
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ras
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#3034 Post by ras »

Hi vt,

I am guessing that you have collected some extra stuff along the way in your /boot/grub from other installations. It may be hard to separate out the necessary from the unnecessary unless we know which installs you are presently trying to maintain. The same could also be said for any unidentified contents of /boot and /.

with no disrespect to the help you are getting from folks here in "other distros", I think you will find some simple solutions for your needs, perhaps post a query in a section where you may get more exposure.

Users ( For the regulars ) ?

I believe g4d was developed with an eye to make it easy to dual boot with windows, but other alternatives that come to mind, should you not wish to go that route again, are a mint install to a ext2/3 partition? you may have to fiddle with setting some things up manually in the mint installer. I see you have regretted not trying this earlier, so have you ruled out a reinstall of mint?
RAS

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#3035 Post by Baldronicus »

Hi vtpup. I think you have a good point re co-opting the thread, and I apologise for keeping on. Ras has a good point regarding assistance too. Should you decide to open a thread elsewhere would a link in each one, pointing to the other, provide a path for those who might be interested?
I'll try to keep myself in check, even though there is a lot of extraneous stuff I was thinking of writing about.
It is good that you can boot Mint from the live media, and you have a workaround for the current problem.
I think Legacy Grub-2013 might be related to the later Legacy Grub (with ext4 support) that you mentioned. If memory serves correctly, I think rcrsn51 had both put it forward on this forum, and had a thread regarding it (Of course, I can't find the link to it now). I suspect that TahrPup 605 might have it.
Unfortunately, I have a suspicion that there might also be another consideration (maybe it is not applicable in this case). I vaguely recall some discussions about difficulties booting newer ext4 filesystems due to 64 bit extensions being present. It could depend on the formatting used in preparing the partition (?).
I guess using ext3 would avoid the whole potential issue?
I'll try to get a copy of the G4D files you asked about. It took a while, but I guess you obtained the image from a screenshot program?
Thanks.

Edit- I think the term I should have been using above might be Legacy Grub Config 2013.
To keep things as close to default as possible, I tried installing Slacko32- 6.9.9.9 using the Puppy Installer, and the default path to install G4D.
I won't be giving a screenshot of the Grub 4Dos files as I don't think it will help. The following G4D related files are all that loaded in the top level of /mnt/sda1 (i.e. no boot directory etc): grldr (the binary? loader file), menu-advanced.lst, menu.lst and sda_mbr.bak. There were no separate directories for the filesystem type files etc. I suspect they might be incorporated in the grldr file (?).
I also thought I would be clever and tried loading Legacy Grub Config 2013. It sets up a boot directory. However the singular /boot/grub sub-directory only contained menu.lst and stage1 and stage2 files. Again, no individual filesystem related files.
I could have just messed it all up, but I don't think this path will help.
Oh, I forgot to ask before. Do you have a secondary "play" machine that you can try this stuff on, or does your main machine have to wear the risk?
Thanks.

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#3036 Post by Baldronicus »

Hi Nitehawk.

I guess whilst I am running amok, I might as well mention that an install of Debian 10.3 to a HP DC5750 SFF appears to have been successful (well, it comes with the ACPI error advice notifications during boot of course, but it seems to work). It has an AMD processor (the end 50 in the number?).
Although it may not be of much help, I thought I should mention it since it is of a similar age and shape to the dc5800, although the front grille etc is on a long edge rather than a short one.
Thanks.

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#3037 Post by vtpup »

Just to update you guys:

Yes, yesterday I had already installed Mint (Debian version -- LMDE4 Debbie) to a new ext3 partition sda8, and it worked fine. The working legacy grub stanza was simple and straightorward:

Code: Select all

title Linux Mint
  root (hd0,7)
  kernel /vmlinuz root=/dev/sda8 ro 
  initrd /initrd.img
  boot 
The installer process itself had one major screw-up -- it overwrote MBR and installed Grub2, but I was able to recover my old start up by restoring the MBR. Luckily when I had first tried Grub4Dos, it backed up original MBR in a file: /mnt/sda1/sda_mbr.bak

Using the command

Code: Select all

cat /mnt/sda1/sda_mbr.bak > /dev/sda
restored it, and all was well.

Baldronicus, yes this is my main (only) system. But I did image the disk a few days ago onto backup drive using Clonezilla. So I can restore it without much loss. I also had backup copies of boot/grub and mbr, as mentioned. Glad I did!

As to why the screw-up on installation? I had explicitly unchecked "install bootloader" in the Mint installer screens, got to the final sanity check screen, and noticed that it was about to re-format my intended ext3 partition to ext4 again. So I backed up a few screens, and changed that to ext3. Unfortunately the installer had re-checkmarked "install bootloader" automatically, and I didn't notice this before clicking install. Cute.....

Oh well, everything is working now after a few hiccups. Going to do without ext4 for the present. Happier with legacy Grub's simplicity than Grub2.

I did see rcrsn51's Legacy Grub Config 2013 yesterday, but wasn't sure it was applicable -- the mention of not for NTFS was one possible issue?
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Baldronicus
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#3038 Post by Baldronicus »

Hi vtpup.

Cool. It's good that you have it working, and good that you had the backups.

I hadn't mentioned the following before as you hadn't wanted to install Grub2 to the MBR, and I have only recently started trying it (but it is very nice). Then I got to thinking (always dangerous), and was going to mention it in this next post as it might have been a way to get around all the filesystem stuff.

On page (now 24) of The Debian-Stretch-Live Starter Kit thread, http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=112784, rcrsn51 has posted "How to add Puppy/Dog installs to a bigboy Linux setup".

As you have things working and setup it may not be of interest now. But maybe it might be of assistance later?
Thanks. And again, glad all is good.

Edit- As usual I forgot something. Not directly related, but with Debian 10.3 I seem to have to use su -l (or --login) in order to run (at least some) commands. Using just su will let me edit files etc, but not execute commands. From what I understand using the plain su does not set the correct environment/ $PATH variables etc but su -l does. As I think I might have seen something about this on the Devuan site, I thought I should mention it, in case it might also apply to LMDE (although I suppose they would have an advice about it if it does).
Edit- Alternatively, if necessary, maybe try sudo, as per the threads given in Colonel Panic's posts below.
Last edited by Baldronicus on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 00:01, edited 1 time in total.

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Colonel Panic
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#3039 Post by Colonel Panic »

Hi Baldronicus,

I've had a similar problem trying to run Softmaker Office in Debian 10 (and some derivatives, such as SolydX) where the application will simply freeze for no apparent reason when I try to do something such as save a file and there's nothing for it but to reboot. Running the same program from the command line with the -debug switch fixes the problem. I don't know if there's a connection with the problem you've just indicated but there might be.

In other news; I've just installed the beta of the upcoming version of Xubuntu (20.04), and it's working well although it doesn't look any different from previous versions of Xubuntu you've probably all seen (though maybe that's a plus). One downside of the new version too is that some of the programs I'm used to being able to install are no longer available (just as they aren't in Debian 10), so it makes more sense for me to use an earlier LTS version such as *16.04 when I want to use Ubuntu.

[EDIT: Another thing I've discovered is that xfburn doesn't work; by the error message's own admission it isn't set up to burn. In which case, what's the point of it?].

*Since Xubuntu LTS is only supported for three years after release as opposed to standard Ubuntu's five years, what I in fact did was install Ubuntu 16.04 and then install XFCE separately.
Last edited by Colonel Panic on Sun 05 Apr 2020, 20:13, edited 2 times in total.
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Baldronicus
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#3040 Post by Baldronicus »

Hi Colonel Panic,

I don't know that your issue with Softmaker Office would directly relate to the su one (but maybe it could indirectly). The su thing related to running commands as root, setting the correct path etc. so that the commands are found. Theoretically at least, I wouldn't expect that to impact saving files etc., in Softmaker. Although maybe there could have been changes to general users path settings as well? But then, I wouldn't rely on my interpretation :) .
However, if I recall correctly, the release notes mentioned that they are now running AppArmour (?- running off the top of my head, again!) by default. Again, if I recall correctly, the location of a number of the binaries have been moved (maybe to the likes of /usr/sbin instead of /sbin -again off the top of my head). That would, presumably, have the potential to mess up an application if it couldn't find a command it needed to use, I guess (and it is a guess, but I think a reasonable one). I don't know whether that sort of stuff might be affecting things. I think there was also mention of the large number of applications that had been in Debian 9 that had been removed, as you describe.
The release notes were only read to a certain point, not finished, as my eyes started to glaze over :) . I guess I should try to be good and have another go at it. It does seem that there is a lot that is different, particularly in the background. So much so that I think I might stick with Debian 9 for a while for the main stuff and just "play", and wait to see how things go with building my level of confidence with respect to using 10.
It is good that you found a work around for Xubuntu. Nice to have that flexibility.
Thanks.

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