FrugalPup 20 - Puppy frugal installer.

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foxpup
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#41 Post by foxpup »

rcrsn51 wrote:To install a Puppy on a UEFI machine, I must start with a USB boot. So I have to go into the UEFI setup to change the boot order. So while I'm there, I might as well turn Secure Boot OFF and be done with it. Otherwise, I will need to track down extra stuff that is not included in the Puppy ISO.
In general, that is correct.
It is possible there are machines that allow booting unsigned kernels from usb.

Adding a mokmanager in the iso is not a big thing though. Fatdog does that.

The biggest problem is signing the kernel everytime for a new Puppy if you do not have the key/cert to do that.
Last edited by foxpup on Sat 19 Oct 2019, 10:06, edited 1 time in total.
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foxpup
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#42 Post by foxpup »

rcrsn51 wrote:Yet Bigpup claims to have done it.
There is no standard for EFI. There are countless variations. It is possible it does work in his EFI and not in another.
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rcrsn51
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#43 Post by rcrsn51 »

foxpup wrote:There is no standard for EFI. There are countless variations. It is possible it does work in his EFI and not in another.
But I would have thought that the implementation of Secure Boot WOULD be standard. Maybe not.
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gyro
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frugalpup and SecureBoot

#44 Post by gyro »

FrugalPup has never done anything about "SecureBoot".
My assumption has always been that "SecureBoot" would need to be disabled.

But, earlier versions had their .efi code copied from an existing uefi usb stick (maybe clonezilla), and contained both a 'bootx64.efi' and a 'grubx64.efi'.

Recent versions get their .efi code from grub-efi-amd64-bin_2.04-2_i386.deb, a debian package, and contain only 'bootx64.efi'.
This is smaller, simpler to setup, and more appropriate to use. And gives me a way of upgrading to newer versions of grub2.
I'm sure that this version is not signed.

It is possible that the earlier "borrowed" .efi code, may have been signed.
I assumed it was not signed, I never checked. I always have "SecureBoot" disabled, since I still do non-uefi boots with grub4dos.

I "borrowed" the efi code because the efi code available in Puppy had a useless screen before the main boot selection screen, that I found annoying, whereas the "borrowed" code did not.

I intend to continue using the debian .efi code, so FrugalPup/StickPup should continue to require "SecureBoot" to be disabled.

gyro
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gyro
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#45 Post by gyro »

rcrsn51 wrote:To install a Puppy on a UEFI machine, I must start with a USB boot. So I have to go into the UEFI setup to change the boot order. So while I'm there, I might as well turn Secure Boot OFF and be done with it. Otherwise, I will need to track down extra stuff that is not included in the Puppy ISO.
My attitude also.
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gyro
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#46 Post by gyro »

bigpup wrote:Got any interest in maybe working on this?
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=116824
Maybe making your FrugalPup and StickPup features part of the Puppy Universal Installer.
I guess the short answer is at this time, no.
I've never looked at the Puppy Universal Installer code, so I don't have any idea how much of a pain it would be modify.

But I was looking for something a little bit more like "grub4dos config", that can setup the boot-entries for multiple puppies in one go, hence the split between "Puppy" and "Boot".

gyro
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gyro
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#47 Post by gyro »

@bigpup,
If you get an opportunity, could you please confirm that the latest version of FrugalPup does not produce a uefi boot partition that will work with "SecureBoot".

gyro
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bigpup
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#48 Post by bigpup »

rcrsn51 wrote:Thanks, but you never answered the key question.
I would like to know if they needed to do the additional stuff to register the keys as described by JamesBond.
Also, your EFI/boot folder has an additional .efi file that is not present on the flash drive that I set up with FrugalPup.

And that flash drive would NOT boot on a machine with Secure Boot enabled.
Not sure about that extra file you see.
I did do this with an older version of FrugalPup.
I will have to check on this.


I had to do nothing extra to get it to boot.
Only what FrugalPup did to install the uefi boot loader.
This computer did have Windows 10 on it.
But I completely deleted Windows 10.
On the internal drive did a new partition table msdos and re-partitioned and formatted.
Again, this is on an internal drive, not a USB flash drive.

All the computers with uefi that I have, will not boot from a USB drive if secure boot is enabled.
The UEFI bios will only see a USB drive as a bootable device if secure boot is disabled.
I find it really depends on how the manufacture of the computer setup the UEFI bios to work.
One computer will not even list USB devices as a boot option until secure boot is disabled.

I see from very new information on booting from UEFI with a USB drive.
That some very new computers give a lot more boot options in there UEFI bios setups.
They list more choices for USB drive booting.
EFI boot sources
With USB devices listed.
Legacy boot sources
With USB devices listed.
None of my UEFI computers have it this way.

May have this problem with UEFI booting.
UEFI based systems such as the Surface Pro or other UEFI systems require that the boot files reside on FAT32 partition. If they are not FAT32 the system may not see the device as bootable.
Again, what specific UEFI bios are you dealing with.

Even the newest UEFI bios. When using a internal drive with a GTP partition table. Usually has a small first partition, formatted fat32, with the boot files on it.
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
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bigpup
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#49 Post by bigpup »

gyro wrote:@bigpup,
If you get an opportunity, could you please confirm that the latest version of FrugalPup does not produce a uefi boot partition that will work with "SecureBoot".

gyro
Give me a little time and I will see what happens.

Can I just keep the internal drive the way it is.
Just reinstall the boot loader using your latest FrugalPup?
I guess I could delete everything from the boot partition, to make sure none of the old boot loader, is on it.

Understand, I will be running FrugalpPup from a booted USB drive, with secure boot disabled.
After I reinstall the UEFI boot loader.
I will enable secure boot and try a normal boot from the internal drive.
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
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#50 Post by bigpup »

gyro wrote:@bigpup,
If you get an opportunity, could you please confirm that the latest version of FrugalPup does not produce a uefi boot partition that will work with "SecureBoot".

gyro
Well, I may have not done this exactly as you wanted.

I did not mess with the internal drive.
I made a UEFI USB flash drive install.

It boots OK on the right computer, if the UEFI bios gives option to boot from a USB UEFI device.

I started with a freshly partitioned and formatted USB flash drive.
msdos partition table.
Has two partitions
First one a small 1GB partition, fat32 formatted.
2nd one rest of drive formatted ext4.

Used Frugalpup_15.sfs loaded.
Installed a frugal install of Bionicpup64 8.0 to the 2nd partition.
Installed a uefi boot loader to the first partition.

I took this USB flash drive to a computer that will boot from a UEFI USB device.
In the UEFI bios setup.
Secure boot is enabled.
Under boot device order moved UEFI usb device to first item
Saved changes.
Rebooted computer.
It booted with no problem on this computer using this USB flash drive.

On another computer that has no UEFI bios option to boot from a UEFI USB device.
I will see what happens.
I am using this usb to type this.
I will report back.

This is what is on the first partition formatted fat32.
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The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
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#51 Post by bigpup »

I tried this UEFI USB drive on a different computer that has UEFI bios, but it also has CSM control.
CSM control is full of all kinds of options, but when enabled, basically disables secure boot.
It has USB boot from a UEFI device or a legacy USB device.
With USB UEFI device setting.
This UEFI USB drive boots OK.

USB legacy device setting.
It will not boot.
Probably because it has no legacy boot loader.
A USB device with a legacy boot loader boots with no problem.

Now I am looking for a computer that does not have CSM.
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)
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rcrsn51
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#52 Post by rcrsn51 »

@bigpup: Again, your EFI/boot folder has both bootx64.efi and grubx64.efi.

When I use BionicPup64, the bootloader installed by FrugalPup/StickPup only has bootx64.efi.
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#53 Post by bigpup »

I just do not know why yours is different from mine.

I am doing this running FrugalPup_15.sfs in Bionicpup64 8.0
I am doing the install to USB from FrugalPup selection window.
Clicking the puppy button.
I am not sure if this is using anything in Stickpup.

Bionicpup64 8.0 already has Stickpup installed in it, if you do the Quickpet>Info>Bionicpup updates.
It only adds Stickpup.

Maybe 666philb did something when he made Stickpup an added program to Bionicpup64 8.0

When I run FrugalPup and select boot from the options window.
I am only selecting uefi for type.
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The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
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#54 Post by rcrsn51 »

Maybe gyro can explain where the grubx64.efi is coming from.

In any case, I tried several UEFI machines with SecureBoot turned ON. None of them would boot an unsigned distro like Puppy or the Starter Kit.

Which is exactly what I would expect.
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gyro
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#55 Post by gyro »

bigpup wrote:Bionicpup64 8.0 already has Stickpup installed in it, if you do the Quickpet>Info>Bionicpup updates.
It only adds Stickpup.
Mystery solved.

Explanation:
You are in fact using an old version of FrugalPup, notice that the title of your FrugalPup dialog says "v11", is should say "v15".

This is because StickPup is just an alternate frontend to FrugalPup, not an independent program.
FrugalPup v11 is installed in Bionicpup64 8.0 via it's update facility, it's just disabled in the menu. You can edit the menu and make it visible.

The problem is that the Bionicpup64 update facility writes files into the save-layer, i.e. on the top of the stack.
When you add FrugalPup as an extra sfs, it gets appended to the bottom of the stack.
The "v11" files at the top of the stack take precedence over the "v15" files at the bottom.
The only thing that really happens is that the menu item gets activated.

The simplest way out of this is to use another Puppy to delete all the files in '/usr/local/frugalpup' and '/usr/local/mi-utils' from the savefolder of your Bionicpup64 frugal install.

gyro
Last edited by gyro on Sun 20 Oct 2019, 14:18, edited 1 time in total.
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bigpup
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#56 Post by bigpup »

What does that say?
The Stickpup in Bionicpup64 8.0 is adding it?
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)
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gyro
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#57 Post by gyro »

bigpup wrote:What does that say?
The Stickpup in Bionicpup64 8.0 is adding it?
Yes.
I was editing my explanation as you posted.

gyro
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gyro
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#58 Post by gyro »

@bigpup,

I apologise if you already appreciate this;
Please, don't delete those files directly from within your Bioninpup64 frugall install.
That would produce whiteout files that would hide all FrugalPup and StickPup files.

gyro
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#59 Post by bigpup »

Nothing is ever simple :roll:

OK.

I will just try doing it all using FrugalPup_15.sfs in a different Puppy version.

But are we having fun! :shock: :lol:
The things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected :shock:
YaPI(any iso installer)
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gyro
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#60 Post by gyro »

bigpup wrote:But are we having fun! :shock: :lol:
Well of course, what other possible explanation could there be.
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