Is it time to fork the Legacy Woof-CE Branch to gitlab?

[s243a]

[s243a]

[greengeek]

If people really thought the world was going to end than nuclear power is by far the best short term strategy to eliminate CO2 emissions within the power industry.

May I start with commenting on your geopolitical rant? I have always been negative towards nuclear power - for reasons related to passing dangerous residues down through the many generations of innocent humans that will follow us. And I do not share the idea that CO2 is a boogey man justifying the use of nuclear. I was gobsmacked to recently view the following youtube vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w where the speaker offered a strong justification for more nuclear power plants in order to save the planet.

Suddenly it became obvious to me why governments are criminalising CO2 - it provides a "justification" for going nuclear. The "CO2 is bad" brigade obviously stand to make a lot of money by encouraging building of nuclear power plants.


But back to puppy : I much prefer to keep old PCs running - and they can easily be powered by solar and wind technologies (at least in many parts of the world). But I also see great advantage in having devs build operating systems for low power devices like Odroid/Raspberry etc.

In fact, as my old hardware dies I will be hoping to move up to Raspberry PCs as a means of avoiding Win10 compatible UEFI style externally controlled hardware.

So I applaud both perspectives - the support of old hardware and also development of new highly efficient "old style" puppies running on highly efficient "new style" hardware.

What I see little value in is the production of puppies tied to the big distros.

If you need to run the newest software programme and it relies on the latest Debian - why would you not boot debian when you have to run it? And just use your good old puppy for everything else?

What we possibly may leave behind is the ideas of freedom which puppy represents.

At least the old puppies are still archived (thanks Ally!) for people needing to keep old hardware alive. And fine tuning those distros is a very good way for new Puppians to learn the landscape and develop basic dev skills themselves.

Example - Darry and Watchdog take old puppies and graft new bits on.
Is this effectively what you are proposing and promoting via a more formal fork?
.

[8Geee]

Basically, if one has a Brand X computer with Puppy in it, the essential software that needs replacing is the BROWSER. The hardware usually does not need to change. The one possibility is the Video processor that can be upgraded ( NOT to modern: just to better, and acceptable to machine/Puppy-OS ).

Much of what I see according to topic is based upon
a.) newer Puppy in old computer
b.) newer computer running an older Puppy
c.) I need a turn-key puppy that I can mod

Basically a.) just needs a new(er) browser. I realize that is not easy to accomplish. Moving base-standards forward (i.e. GTK3) is a rather complicated and immense solution. And of course glibc updating is even more complicated. It boils down to entities much larger than Puppy are forcing changes upon ALL.

Request b.) holds the most promise as the faster, more efficient CPU/MPU can really speed things up. But the new computer has new hardware not found in older Pups (re: kernel). On an individual or group basis, such drivers can be made available. The problem here is the micro-code updates that must occur for a safer on-line experience.

Request c.) is the traditional Puppy approach, get something that works and tinker.

Moving towards giga-corporate is a reality we face. Puppy DOES NOT have its own Browser- no phoning home, no 3rd party "affiliates"- we have to alter a specific browser to our security/privacy needs. Some people think an app or three can fix this, some think altering the browser-behavior is sufficient, and a few do BOTH.

Finally, Puppy has end-users that are new to linux, and its characteristics. There are dual-boots aplenty even 11 years after I signed up here. People just can't be weened off Windows, because COMPANIES use it. And Windows has cut-off its legacy programs to keep Customers in line. That should be strictly prohibited in Puppy.

Consequentially, the OS/Browser world IS NOT about diversity, its about money, and keeping people employed. Thus, there is no old browser udergoing security repairs... get a new one, and ditto for the OS. Thats not PuppyLinux.

Regards
8Geee

[s243a]

If people really thought the world was going to end than nuclear power is by far the best short term strategy to eliminate CO2 emissions within the power industry.

May I start with commenting on your geopolitical rant? I have always been negative towards nuclear power - for reasons related to passing dangerous residues down through the many generations of innocent humans that will follow us. And I do not share the idea that CO2 is a boogey man justifying the use of nuclear. I was gobsmacked to recently view the following youtube vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-yALPEpV4w where the speaker offered a strong justification for more nuclear power plants in order to save the planet.

Suddenly it became obvious to me why governments are criminalising CO2 - it provides a "justification" for going nuclear. The "CO2 is bad" brigade obviously stand to make a lot of money by encouraging building of nuclear power plants.

This is possible but I going to try avoiding getting too much into the CO2 debate. I just want people to be honest that if CO2 is really the boogeyman that people say it is than we need nuclear. However, if the danger isn't as dire and as immediate than we can explore alternatives and the rate that we have to bring alternatives online will depend on how dire and immediate the threat is.

Regarding the push towards nuclear it should be pointed out that because of nuclear proliferation agreements many countries aren't allowed to enrich uranium beyond a certain level and if the reactor technology that a given country requires needs enrichment beyond this level then they are dependent on countries that are allowed to enrich uranium beyond this level.

That said, I think that the United States is more interested in keeping oil cheap then pushing Nuclear. The reason being is that they know the economic effect of a high price of oil and a $100 price of oil preceded the last the great recession.

A push towards alternatives like wind and solar also helps to keep the price of oil down. I will also point out that not only does a low price of oil help the US economy but it also helps to put pressure on governments that the United States whats to replace with their puppets (e.g. Venezuela).

But back to puppy : I much prefer to keep old PCs running - and they can easily be powered by solar and wind technologies (at least in many parts of the world). But I also see great advantage in having devs build operating systems for low power devices like Odroid/Raspberry etc.

In fact, as my old hardware dies I will be hoping to move up to Raspberry PCs as a means of avoiding Win10 compatible UEFI style externally controlled hardware.

So I applaud both perspectives - the support of old hardware and also development of new highly efficient "old style" puppies running on highly efficient "new style" hardware.

agreed

What I see little value in is the production of puppies tied to the big distros.

Currently puppy is tied to the big distros but some puppy like systems aren't such as: easyOS, weeDog, TazPup and Fatdog64. With woof-next this will likely change because of greater flexibility in the build system. There is currently a version of woof-next that is being developed by the woof-CE developers called (ZWN):
https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/w ... esting/zwn

If you need to run the newest software programme and it relies on the latest Debian - why would you not boot debian when you have to run it? And just use your good old puppy for everything else?

Perhaps someone wants a light version of debian. Of course there are alternatives besides puppy for this like doglinux and MXLinux

What we possibly may leave behind is the ideas of freedom which puppy represents.

At least the old puppies are still archived (thanks Ally!) for people needing to keep old hardware alive. And fine tuning those distros is a very good way for new Puppians to learn the landscape and develop basic dev skills themselves.

Example - Darry and Watchdog take old puppies and graft new bits on.
Is this effectively what you are proposing and promoting via a more formal fork?
.

I agree, I'm very much appreciative of both the work by the puppy developers and also the work of people that keep old versions of puppy alive. P.S. you forgot: nic and JRB as community members which help to keep old versions of puppy alive.

[darry19662018]

I work at the moment at a Refuse Park (Nice term for a Dump). This was done to get people into the Recycle mindset. I see an overwealming amount of crt monitors and Crt tvs,
Laptops, Desktops and even fairly recent tech. Which just adds to this country's problem with plastic (there is no market for plastic at the moment). Add to that printers whose cartridges cost more to replace than the printer.

We send off this stuff to be disassembed and the components re-used. Wire is recycled separately. I have been lucky to get a couple of good laptops that I have purchased cheaply to run Puppy on.

The big problem I see is the appliances which are not very old at all coming in especially whiteware (Goes to Metal Scrappy) and to be honest we are struggling to keep up with what is coming in.

The biggest eye-opener for me is the problem with plastic and how many products are constructed with non-recyclable materials such as pvc.

What I love about Puppy is the range of hardware it will run on and the development of being able to change kernels to remaster a pup to suit your hardware. I have really enjoyed using Busterpup and SCpup as well as older pups like Raring, 4.31 and Lucid and my favourite PUDUAN 6(the forgotten).

What annoys me is not Puppy relying on those "big" distros for packages but the attitude of the big distros to abandon older hardware in favour of going 64bit only with the weak it is too hard excuse. 32bit hardware is still extremely useful and frankly very fun to use.

It is fun to tinker with old Pups like 4.31 and it is very cool that guys like Watchdog, and 8Geee and others have made Browsers that help with this.

As for what s243a is talking about I can only say this anything that is linked to Microsoft is not a good a good thing and I am in agreement with nosystemd on what he has said on the matter.

I'd like to see hardware that lasted longer and we got away from the planned obsolescence nightmare we are going through at the moment, we are becoming a world of refuse.

Finally thank you s243a for the work you are doing and others here which is developing Puppy like systems which are extremely cool.

[bigpup]

GitLab moved from Microsoft Azure to Google Cloud Platform in August 11, 2018, which made the service inaccessible to users in Crimea, Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria, due to sanctions imposed by Office of Foreign Assets Control of the United States.

So Microsoft owns Github and Google has control of Gitlab.

It is just Google Cloud
Are you really that stupid, that you do not think Google gets to look at the stuff that is in Google Cloud?

[mikeslr]

Six of one; half a dozen of the other. Github was, and for now still is, open-source. Do you really think that Google was and is unaware of its contents? hasn't cloned it for exploration and exploitation purposes?

"Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Lord Acton.

That is true without regard for what system is being considered: political, religious, information, production, and economic to name the obvious. Concentration of power reduces individual freedom and enables tyranny by the few. It matters little if your choices have been limited by a government decree or the functional control by a "Free Enterprise" that dominates your environment.

[greengeek]

P.S. you forgot: nic and JRB as community members which help to keep old versions of puppy alive.

Yes indeed, definitely. I only mentioned two of the contributors that keep old distros alive and relevant. (Tuxtoo deserves a major mention too..).

In fact jrb's "enabling the zdrv" efforts enabled me to modify Slacko 5.6 to suit my needs and it has been my daily driver for about 5 years as a result.

All of the Puppians who help keep old versions useable deserve a big pat on the back.

[lmemsm]

Basically a.) just needs a new(er) browser. I realize that is not easy to accomplish. Moving base-standards forward (i.e. GTK3) is a rather complicated and immense solution. And of course glibc updating is even more complicated. It boils down to entities much larger than Puppy are forcing changes upon ALL.

You've brought up an issue that I've been very concerned with of late. There are just a few browser developers (Google, Mozilla, etc.). The w3c is no longer in charge of web standards. The browser developers took that over and mainly disregard any w3c suggestions they don't like. Web developers tend to only create web sites that work on the last 3 incarnations of popular browsers. They typically don't have the time or inclination to thoroughly test all browsers. Also, if tried and true web design techniques are used that port well to multiple browsers, people complain it's not web 2.0 and isn't aesthetically pleasing. So, we're stuck with a monopoly that's been created by people's tastes and what's in style, that forces you to keep upgrading your hardware and software to conform to what's popular.

Many developers are talking about how great tools like Slack are. It seems to be replacing simpler forms of communication like IRC. (By the way, even some IRC systems are increasing security. So, you can't use them without the latest IRC clients and security modifications which may not necessarily be available in command line programs or programs with less dependencies.) None of my regular browsers are compatible with Slack. That basically puts up a barrier between those who have access to information and those who do not. It's not just systems like Slack though. What about banking systems or systems that you purchase merchandise through? Yes, it's important to upgrade security in programs. However, the upgrades shouldn't be just for a minority of select programs that large corporations or non-profits can afford to maintain. Even where I work, I see examples of exclusiveness. They upgraded their system to two level security, meaning you need two devices to get into the system. However, they assume everyone has access to text messaging to provide the second level of security. Some of the upgrades we're seeing may be due to security reasons, but many of them are due to companies wanting to create a new market, so you need to buy their latest software or hardware to continue to be able to do things you used to be able to do.

So what can be done about it? I kind of liked the idea that some users had when the Internet became too much of a social media distribution system to create an Internet II for more academic uses again. Creating a new Internet may be too big of an endeavor, but creating more accessible forms of communication over the current Internet is possible. The Puppy Linux discussion board is a great example of what can be done. It continues to be very accessible to hardware and software that may not be the latest and greatest. At one point when IE was the most popular browser, there were campaigns to make sites accessible in any browser. Now that most of the browsers are based on Open Source, those campaigns have practically stopped. Consumers need to continue to put pressure on site owners to make sites more accessible. If you're creating content for the Internet, make sure it's as accessible as you can make it. Get the word out and create places where people can share information on what content is out there that is still highly accessible and frequent those over sites that are not easily accessible.

As to the browser issue, the easiest way to make sure a browser continues to work is to be able to develop it oneself. Unfortunately, the specifications for the browser have become so complex, only a few companies can afford to build and maintain something that can fully handle all the latest standards. The developer of XFDOS and nanolinux spent quite a lot of time trying to come up with a decent browser based on webkit that can handle modern web sites. I also put in some time on the project. The developer of the fifth browser also put in similar efforts. While they're webkit based projects, they're still not going to be able to handle all the latest web sites. Some web sites search for user agent information and may refuse to work just because the required user agent isn't listed. This requires spoofing the user agent information. The webkit based browser I was working on supported AJAX, but JSON support would need to be added. Also, when I upgraded my version of gcc, some of the original developers made a few non-portable shortcuts that caused it to crash with later incarnations of the compiler. There are projects like netsurf that are attempting to redesign the browser from scratch cleanly. I looked into the project several years ago and had no luck using it. Even building it on some systems was an issue.

Most companies are attempting to provide some type of mobile phone support since that's the latest in thing. However, since the turnover for mobile devices and the update of mobile operating systems seems to be going at an even more rapid pace than PCs, how long will it be before whatever app or browser worked on your mobile device no longer works? Google is already pushing the demise of 32 bit apps in the Google store and requiring developers submit 64 bit versions of all apps. There are several inexpensive Android tablets that could eventually be rendered useless because of that switch. There are projects like libhybris that are trying to bring some of the apps available on devices like Android to the Linux desktop. However, since phones have the same problem with becoming outdated and even more rapidly than desktop computers, it doesn't look like a good solution for older systems.

The last option I can think of is to use a virtual machine. Run the latest and greatest software in a virtual machine (whether it's phone software like Android X86 or some commercial operating system) and use a later browser that way. Of course, older systems may not have the horsepower and resources to run an emulator well. Many of the newer operating systems won't even run on certain older machines due to lack of hardware resources let alone run in emulators on those machines. Emulating a mobile phone would probably be easier than some of the other operating system choices because it's design for systems that may have less processing power. Still, it's not an optimal solution.

Support alternative forms of communication (such as more accessible web sites, forum software, etc.) that are less exclusive and work with more operating systems and client software choices. Encourage or help out Open Source projects that are offering alternatives to standard browser options. Use emulators to bridge the gap when possible. That about sums up the choices I've seen so far. If there are other solutions that don't require just giving in and using what everyone else is using, I'd love to hear about them. Suggestions very welcome.

[s243a]

Just as a note, JRB has been leading to effort to keep legacy puppies alive and as part of this effort JRB has maintained a fork of woof CE:

The "17March2019" in the thread title refers to the WoofCE that I started with for Precise-light MK2. I have used that throughout. I know there were some major changes after that.

Cheers, J

Cool. I'll consider your version the official legacy fork. May I have a link to your fork?

Here's a link to my slightly modified version. Precise is one of the build options. You can click on the build scripts and they will open in terminal window. It will pause and open an xmessage window just before building the puppy.sfs, this lets you check and modify within rootfs-complete. Click OK to continue.

Enjoy, J

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 74#1049674

If anyone is looking to help maintain legacy versions of puppies this would probably be the best place to contribute. I don't know whether or not JRB is accepting merge/pull requests.

Edit Looks like it isn't yet on github or gitlab, so perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself here.