Puppy 2.15CE "Viz" - Development Ideas/Requests

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lvds
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#181 Post by lvds »

Hi,

I have been testing a lot of things lasts weeks and i would like to submit the following ideas. I haven't found the following in the wikki nor forums.

- I think a CE release must have a really reliable multimedia support and from what i have read last days, it takes MB of space to add the fine libraries for it plus the right codecs. Why not choose VLC instead of gxine+XMMS+mozilla libs+codecs ? ...Moreover a firefox/mozilla plugins exist of VLC.

- can we have a kernel with bootsplash support please ? So we could insert a graphic bootsplash.

- the games takes weight. I am not really ok with adding weight for not so good games, but i know of one or two which are very good and lightweight so we could use them in place of the old ones. The games i am thinking i have seen them on other puppy distro so i could be ok to add, there was PENTE from Gliezl distro (excuse me if i spelled it bad, Lady) , and a mahjong but i can't remember right now where i found them. Very good replacements instead of the old games IMHO.

Best regards
Laurent
Last edited by lvds on Fri 09 Mar 2007, 11:39, edited 2 times in total.

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WhoDo
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#182 Post by WhoDo »

lvds wrote:- I think a CE edition must have a really reliable multimedia support and from what i have read last days, it takes MB of space to add the fine libraries for it plus the right codecs. Why not choose VLC instead of gxine+XMMS+mozilla libs+codecs ? ...Moreover a firefox/mozilla plugins exist of VLC.
I'm looking for someone to create a squash file add on for multimedia, in which case you could almost add whatever you like within reason. It's the only way to give everyone a fair selection of what they want without bloating Puppy up to normal distro size, which won't work well without heaps of RAM. If you would care to give it a shot, sunburnt has created an excellent squash file creation GUI to make the job easier.
lvds wrote: - can we have a kernel with bootsplash support please ? So we could insert a graphic bootsplash.
Unless I've misunderstood, our standard kernel already has support for a bootsplash option. There was some talk from Nathan of Grafpup fame about creating one for CE. I'm all for it, myself.
lvds wrote: - the games takes weight. I am not really ok with adding weight for not so good games, but i know of one or two which are very good and lightweight so we could use them in place of the old ones. The games i am thinking i have seen them on other puppy distro so i could be ok to add, there was PENTE from gliezl distro (excuse me if i spelled it bad, Lady) , and a mahjong but i can't remember right now where i found them. Very good replacements instead of the old games IMHO.
I've added Yahtzee, Hearts, Seahaven solitaire and Euchre because they don't take much space and they offer Windows refugees an incentive to play with Puppy. There is also a tkGames pack that includes many, many more games that I could include with the Office Edition. That is under consideration and subject to size restrictions to retain Puppy's character and uniqueness. I had to remove the magnificent Supertux on that latter score, unfortunately.

Hope that helps, Laurent. Thanks for your input. It is much appreciated.

Cheers

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lvds
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#183 Post by lvds »

- About games: they have to be choosen very carefully, not just put as much as we can, or select them "because these 5 bad games weight less than this good one" ... (it is not what have been said, i am just pointing to common errors)

I recall there was a discussion where someone stated he would have very much prefered inclusion of Tuxpaint and gCompris (kids software) instead of old games usually unused by most of people ; and i agree, as a lot also have before me.

- About multimedia, i think whatever will be add in SFS addon packs, a few things have to be in the main pack, and multimedia is really the one pack needed not on a addon.

Let me explain, when you want to load a addon you need to insert the CD in the drive (or am i wrong ?!) so how will i be able to listen to a music CD if my puppyCE is yet using the CDROM drive ?!

As far as i have tested, VLC seems to be the best choice because of full features and weight comparison.

-I would like to say a word about window manager but it is not related to look and feel. I think one of the most important thing for a window mnager is to have a panel configuration so user can change everything, from look and feel, to menu customization, BY HIS OWN (not to rely on a community of programmers nor to wait for a next edition). I think as programmers we need to give back the freedom for customization to the end user. Set them free, they will love you for this beyond words.

To my knowledge i've only seen XFCE to have a complete configuration panel and i have not found the same possibilities for others window managers. If ICEWM should be choose, or whatever wndow manager, be sure to include a graphic configuration panel inside, this is very important.

- Another thing is a communauty is multi-lingual so a CE puppy should have a strong ability to switch from a language to another based on locales. Many of the distro i have tested have a locales script broken or not fully working or just simply doing nothing. Pizzapup have a nice one but this is not enough. Try to switch from english to french and you will still be in english for many softwares. But i know this is not a simple problem easy to solve.

I hope a CE work will tend to solve this in the most beautiful way one programmer could imagine. If we release a CE and every country have to modify it again to apply a lot of mods for internationalization, it would seem to me as a "small" communauty... The smart way would be to have a user choose for his language, and the localisation script connects to a server and download the correct translated files, and setup a few variables correctly. User would only have to remaster to burn a cd after that.

It reminds me to tell within ROX there is an option to select so ROX reacts to LOCALES variable instead of setting up a defined language. (Pizzasgood if you read me, you forgot this one)

I recall Xubuntu live-cd (or was it XFCE live-cd...) to have such a very good process of translation for the whole distro. One click, two minutes, and a few messages scrolling on my screen later and the whole distro was translated in french (include firefox and thunderbird etc.) It just was GREAT and makes everybody WOWed !!

Internationalization is one of the main signs of a complete community work. Something telling everybody that whatever country we came from we worked in harmony or at least with respect for each others. THIS is a community. :wink:

Best regards,
Laurent.
Last edited by lvds on Wed 07 Mar 2007, 15:19, edited 1 time in total.

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puppyfan12
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the new beta1

#184 Post by puppyfan12 »

I've loaded up the beta1 release and thought we had better tackle the discussion of licensing issues before we hit an "official" release. I've started a new thread specifically for licensing issues.
Joe D.

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cb88
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Just ran 2.15 CE in Virtualbox Emulator

#185 Post by cb88 »

Puppy 2.15CE in virtualbox emulator.
keyboard and xorgwizard run then stops at this

1>Type 'xwin' to start Xvesa graphics sever.
2>cat: /ect/videomode: no such file or directory
3>cat: /ect/videomode: no such file or directory
4>Starting X with video mode and mouse psaux...
some time passes about 20-30 sec.
5>Exited from X. Type "xwin [fvwm95: jwm]" to restart X ([] mean optional).
6>(To shutdown PC type "poweroff', to reboot PC type "reboot')
7>
8>cat: /ect/TZ: No such file or directory

line 8 also appears just before the keyboard selection wizard starts.
I can start X by typing xwin but this is annoying.
might leave a noob bewildered. Has this occured out side an emulator?
this occured in the alpha as well. not in 2.14 or 2.12 that I recall.
not an issue after there is a pupsave.2fs file
but the error sill appears while puppy is loading.
hope this helps,
cb88

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lvds
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#186 Post by lvds »

...By the way, i forgot to tell i completely agree with Pizzasgood and others about Firefox instead of Opera. From what i have tested, installing Opera does not gain weight because it needs a lot of external things and libraries to give the same as Firefox.

the same is about gxine+xmms+mozilla libs+codecs+etc... versus VLC as VLC can do it all in one.

In the end if you couple firefox+vlc you have a killer app and a real gain in memory. Moreover it has to be added to the record that a lot of people uses extensions for firefox and will have hard time to live without them. Some extensions for firefox are especially good ones.

Best regards,
Laurent.
Last edited by lvds on Fri 09 Mar 2007, 11:41, edited 2 times in total.

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bobn9lvu
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#187 Post by bobn9lvu »

lvds wrote:...By the way, i forgot to tell i completely agree with Pizzasgood and others about Firefox instead of Opera. From what i have tested, installing Opera does not gain weight because it needs a lot of external things and librarires to give the same as Firefox.

the same is about gxine+xmms+mozilla libs+codecs+etc... versus VLC as VLC can do it all in one.

In the end if you couple firefox+vlc you have a killer app and a real gain in memory. Moreover it has to be added to the record that a lot of people uses extensions for firefox and will have hard time to leave without them. Some extensions for firefox are especially good ones.

Best regards,
Laurent.
I totally agree with you on this!
The two extensions I would include for Firefox are " Noscript", and " Adblock "..
A couple of "nice" themes would be great as well...

Bob

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#188 Post by iscraigh »

Has someone done a comparison of size between firefox and opera. If we have opera and have to add 2mb's of mozilla libraries to support gaim and GXine (someone mentioned already that it doesn't work in the beta). How much of a difference are we talking?. Forgive me WhoDo and others no disrespect intended at all, tough decisions have to be made and I appreciate the work you put in.

Side note: I use a plugin called media player connectivity, it allows me to auto launch external programs to play any media. I have not been able to get my daughters radio station to play any other way; thebeat.com

https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/446/

http://thebeat.com


Craig

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Ted Dog
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Closing of puppylinux.net

#189 Post by Ted Dog »

www.puppylinux.net will lose its server at the end of the month, due to lack of funds. If and when social security disability income [what a horrible disappointment] comes in I'll restart it. As some know, I have a rare M.D. and only help I get comes from the M.D.A which doesn't cover web-costs.
On a related note most of the puppylinux.us, info domains have been released, and should be available for reuse.

'Please support your local MDA spring fund drive'
Thanks to MU for his help with the websites puptrix.org is safe (prepaid) until Oct.

OK now back to the tread......

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#190 Post by Pizzasgood »

Okay, more complaints/suggestions from the critic (sorry, it's for our own good):

You changed the icons the easy way. How you did it, if the user changes them, it will overwrite the icon you used. Not good. You should change the icons in the rox icon theme instead. It should be inside the ROX-Filer ROX-App, so probably in /usr/local/apps/ROX-Filer/ROX/MIME/. Doing it that way will let users add custom icons with the simple right-click method without losing the built in icon if they want to revert.

Also, that folder is the same as the MIME folder of a ROX-Filer icon theme, so you could easily swap a complete icon theme into it, or swap it into an actual icon theme that other people can download (for installing in non-2.15 Puppies maybe).

Speaking of icons, you only changed a couple. When you look in the directory above, you'll see the rest. I know that's probably on the to-do list still though. By the way, you're welcome to the one I set up for Pizzapup if you want it. It's not quite the same style (more Tango-ish) but it's better than the defaults. If you don't plan to replace most of them, it would look better to have that for the unchanged icons than the standard ROX icons. That reminds me, I need to package that still. Let me know if you want it and I'll bump it up on the priority list.


The runaction for audio files is still madplay. AFAIK, most people find that annoying, because they can't stop it. I know I do. I'd say set it to xmms. Actually, if you keep both Gxine and XMMS, I'd suggest making a /usr/local/bin/defaultaudioplayer file and setting them to that (use defaultmediaplayer as a template).

The GTK-2 theme is very nice, but it's only for GTK-2. It leaves GTK-1 apps butt ugly. Maybe someone who knows about themes (Dougal?) can port it? Or at least set up a reasonably similar GTK-1 theme? If nothing else, some symlinks could probably make it load the default GTK-1 theme so it doesn't look so bad.


Now, for the IceWM themes:

Do we need 3 XP themes in PUPPY? One would do it. Silver is the most clean, then Olive. Blue is disgusting to begin with, and the theme is just plain messy.
XP logo in XP themes is unnecessary and annoying to some

Drop extra icons in:
  • WinXP-Silver
  • WinXP-Olive
  • Vista_Black

Drop WinClassic (I know you already offered that, just adding my vote)

Drop extra images in Velvet themes
Do we need 2 velvets?

Smooth-Feelings is too similar to Abby. Drop one. I'd vote to keep Abby.


There. That's enough for tonight. I still need to study for my exam tomorrow. It really does look pretty nice though. Especially with IcebergX, the original blue shining.jpg wallpaper, and the dark-blue XMMS theme.

Oh, and the green shining wallpaper is huge. JPG is lossy, so you can't really edit one and re-save it and hope to preserve detail. That's why I saved the original Gimp .xcf. I'll make a green version that isn't small sometime in the next week, and upload it, along with a .png of the original. I'd upload the .xcf, but it's 20MB.
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WhoDo
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#191 Post by WhoDo »

Pizzasgood wrote:Okay, more complaints/suggestions from the critic (sorry, it's for our own good):
This is great stuff, PG, but it'll take me a while to work through it. I'm happy to look at the icon set you mention, and anything else you want to contribute.

I'll come back with some thoughts/responses when I've had time to digest.

Cheers

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#192 Post by craftybytes »

WhoDo - as a puppyite on 56k dialup, I would have to set up my system to do a download of - v2.15CE "Viz" - or even the - v2.15CE "standard" - iso's to be able to do it over several hours UNINTERRUPTED..

However, with the present state of my telephone line ( debatable ) and my ISP link ( max 4 hour sessions ) - I don't think that this is going to be successful without a lot of hassles - SO - I ask will either or both these "iso's" be available on CD for us who are on dialup to purchase ..?

Please..PLEASE..
3 x boot:- ASROCK VIA 'all-in-one' m/b; AMD Duron 1.8Ghz+; 1.0GB RAM; 20GB hdd (WinXP Pro); 80GB hdd (MEPIS 3.4-3/Puppy v2.15CE Frugal); 1GB USB pendrive (Puppy 2.15CE Frugal); CD/DVDRW; 17" LCD monitor; HSF 56k modem... MEPIS is great.. Puppy ROCKS..

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WhoDo
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#193 Post by WhoDo »

Pizzasgood wrote:You should change the icons in the rox icon theme instead. It should be inside the ROX-Filer ROX-App, so probably in /usr/local/apps/ROX-Filer/ROX/MIME/. Doing it that way will let users add custom icons with the simple right-click method without losing the built in icon if they want to revert.
Great! Done that way for Beta2.
Pizzasgood wrote: Also, that folder is the same as the MIME folder of a ROX-Filer icon theme, so you could easily swap a complete icon theme into it, or swap it into an actual icon theme that other people can download (for installing in non-2.15 Puppies maybe).
This bit I don't understand. I tried using complete icon themes with Rox 2.5 and it always said they had no mime-types, despite the presence in each theme of a mime-types folder. I'm sure it will make sense when I actually understand the process, but for now I have no clue.
Pizzasgood wrote: Speaking of icons, you only changed a couple. When you look in the directory above, you'll see the rest. I know that's probably on the to-do list still though.
If you mean the icons that appear in the Rox toolbar, I've searched in vain for those so I could change them to be more reflective of the current theme. If that's not what you mean, I haven't a clue.
Pizzasgood wrote: By the way, you're welcome to the one I set up for Pizzapup if you want it. It's not quite the same style (more Tango-ish) but it's better than the defaults. If you don't plan to replace most of them, it would look better to have that for the unchanged icons than the standard ROX icons. That reminds me, I need to package that still. Let me know if you want it and I'll bump it up on the priority list.
At this point I'll take whatever I can get. It's always nice to have a choice.
Pizzasgood wrote: The runaction for audio files is still madplay. AFAIK, most people find that annoying, because they can't stop it. I know I do. I'd say set it to xmms. Actually, if you keep both Gxine and XMMS, I'd suggest making a /usr/local/bin/defaultaudioplayer file and setting them to that (use defaultmediaplayer as a template).
Done. Will be that way in Beta2.
Pizzasgood wrote: The GTK-2 theme is very nice, but it's only for GTK-2. It leaves GTK-1 apps butt ugly. Maybe someone who knows about themes (Dougal?) can port it? Or at least set up a reasonably similar GTK-1 theme? If nothing else, some symlinks could probably make it load the default GTK-1 theme so it doesn't look so bad.
What GTK-1 apps do we still have in Puppy 2.15CE? If I knew that I could make decision. I'm not married to the LINsta theme, but it does look nice. If someone can show me one that's compatible with both GTK-1 and GTK-2 and looks good with the current Icewm themes, I'll give a trial in Beta2.
Pizzasgood wrote:Do we need 3 XP themes in PUPPY? One would do it. Silver is the most clean, then Olive. Blue is disgusting to begin with, and the theme is just plain messy. XP logo in XP themes is unnecessary and annoying to some
Nope. I've whittle the choice down from 32+ themes to only 10 in Beta1. I agree that 3-5 themes is best. Still chopping as I read the pulse of the community on such matters.
Pizzasgood wrote:Drop extra icons in:
  • WinXP-Silver
  • WinXP-Olive
  • Vista_Black

Drop WinClassic (I know you already offered that, just adding my vote)

Drop extra images in Velvet themes
Do we need 2 velvets?

Smooth-Feelings is too similar to Abby. Drop one. I'd vote to keep Abby.
No we don't need 2 velvets, but choice is nice. I'm happy to drop WinClassic. It's too old hat to be useful these days anyway. I'd rather drop Abby than Smooth Feelings, but only because the latter has a nice self-stripe menu background that looks quite classy. Maybe I can blend the two into one classy theme instead.

Thanks for all of your suggestions. Hope I get to understand the couple that didn't quite make sense for me. I know Beta2 will profit if I do.

Cheers

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WhoDo
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#194 Post by WhoDo »

craftybytes wrote:SO - I ask will either or both these "iso's" be available on CD for us who are on dialup to purchase ..?
As a standard Puppy version rather than a puplet or repackaged version, I guess Barry will probably make it available on CD ... eventually. Of course that's up to Barry.

Cheers

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#195 Post by iscraigh »

Okay testing the beta now
Observations

-Gzine won't start efter installing missing mozilla libs
-when I open pet get I get only about 6 programs to install and it does not give me the option to update the list.
-software installer worked and looked good.
-Gaim unable to connect to MSN even after installing missing libs(had the same problem in litepup todd had a package of the missing libs that worked.)
-Opera does not include flash, flash at least should work out of the box.
I installed the flash .pup for opera and flash still does not work.
-Gtimer is not included anymore I used it to time my kids on the computer

I am pretty sure that I read Flash 9 would be included so I am going to assume that it just didn't make it in the beta. If I am incorrect then a working dot pup is a must.

I would say the same about java, if Opera is going to be the browser then installing java should only involve installing the dotpup. Perhaps an option when installing the java.pup asking which browser is being used and then putting the files in the correct places.


I will continue poking around

Craig

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#196 Post by iscraigh »

Side note

Opera still does not work with my banking site, tried inetify as Firefox/IE as well as mask as Firefox/IE

Installed flash 9 plugin.pup Worked in firefox (okay still crashes on some sites)
Did not work in opera all i get is a gray screen.

installed jre.pup, worked in firefox, no love in Opera



Craig

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#197 Post by Pizzasgood »

Okay WhoDo, I'll try to explain. When you put a ROX-compatible theme in /root/.icons/, it adds a directory with the theme's name. Inside that directory is one called MIME, which has the icons. /usr/local/apps/ROX-Filer/ROX/ is basically another theme, with it's own MIME directory. So you can actually copy the contents of an icon theme's MIME directory into /usr/local/apps/ROX-Filer/ROX/MIME to completely change the default icons.

I posted the bcTangoKDE themes I used here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=16220
Note: the one with the actual icons is the orange theme. The others just have symlinks, except for their folder icon. That way they don't use extra space.

You can directly copy any that you like into /usr/local/apps/ROX-Filer/ROX/MIME to replace the default. I'd suggest trying to stick with they style you're already using when possible though. Shining KDE, right? It fits the glossy look of everything else. These are just a quick and simple "pre-cooked" replacement for the ones you don't do, so they don't look so bad.

What I meant by "other" icons was stuff like mp3, ogg, etc. They're still using the standard not-so-great ones. I didn't bother compiling a list since I figured you just hadn't finished. As for the ones in the toolbar, those are part of the GTK theme, as far as I know. Many apps use the icons from a GTK theme for consistency.

As for GTK-1 apps, I'm not sure. Not many, because I didn't notice it until I right-clicked XMMS. I'm not suggesting dropping the GTK2 theme, it's great. Just giving GTK-1 something, in case someone stumbles across a stray GTK-1 program. Even giving it the default theme it used to have would be better than nothing. I'll look through my collection to see if I have anything similar to Linsta, but I don't have many. I don't know a whole lot about GTK themes though. You might want to consult Dougal about it. He did a bunch of research into GTK themes. He pm'ed me a link to a bunch of them, but it's broken and I haven't had time to ask him for a new one.
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Some thoughts on version 2.15 ViZ

#198 Post by metre9dmt »

:idea: Several thoughts:
1. It is inevitable that we might see two versions of the ViZ: a regular one and extreme version. The regular one should include all the applications contained in version 2.14 but with all the enhancements, e.g. all the plug-ins for abiword. The extreme version should include OpenOffice.org, Inkscape version 0.45, GIMP, project management software such as Planner or GanttProject, Java and 1-2 better games (e.g. kraptor and supertux?). We can then use the two versions to showcase the power of Puppy Linux, one for "old computers" and one for "new computers".

2. Easier network connection. I am still experiencing problems connecting to the office network. I have seen how Linux Mint connects and I hope that we could connect in such manner, seamless.

3. Centralized repository. I normally download softwares from the Internet (I have to use Windows coz Puppy Linux still wont connect) and then install it later to my computer running in Linux. I really wished that we can have a central repository to get dotpups, dotpets & other packages so that it is easy for us to download and track down the packages.

I wish to thank Barry and the rest of the Puppy Linux community for creating and continuously developing Puppy Linux. Mabuhay kayo! :D
As I said Puppy Linux is the best coz it works the first time, with any computer and with complete software complement. Thanks! 8-)

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#199 Post by Pizzasgood »

Here's the small (filesize-wise) version of the green shining wallpaper that I promised, along with the .png versions in case you want to make changes:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=16228
[size=75]Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib[/size]
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WhoDo
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#200 Post by WhoDo »

Pizzasgood wrote:Here's the small (filesize-wise) version of the green shining wallpaper that I promised, along with the .png versions in case you want to make changes:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=16228
Thanks, PG. I'll push them into Beta2 this weekend. Thanks for making a couple of darker ones on spec in case we use the frosted glass icon series. Much appreciated.

Cheers

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