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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects » Next Puppy Development
Where the puppylinux 9 should focus on?.
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Where the puppylinux 9 should focus on?
Help hold onto their turn-of-the-century computers
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Become an entry system for the aspiring hacker/developer
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Become a minimal modular system (a’la tinycore)
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Expand its size and become a “provide everything OOTB” (a’ la Mint or Elementary), but in a layered OS
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Maintain current focus and try to increase conformity (and likely size) with more traditional linuxes and built methods
38%
 38%  [ 13 ]
“whatever” as long as we have fun…
23%
 23%  [ 8 ]
All/None of the above
23%
 23%  [ 8 ]
Total Votes : 34

Author Message
mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3056

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 06:16    Post subject:  Where the puppylinux 9 should focus on?.  

My understanding is that historically puppylinux was a small agile OS that was easy enough for the nooby and provided maximum hardware compatibility and applications OOTB, requiring minimal command-line configuration (when used as intended).
For that had to follow several unorthodox approaches, both in building and running, needed to achieve all of the above.

Today the environment is totally different.
90%+ of the laptops/desktops out there are 64bit with 1+ GB RAM (as 32bit CPUs are produced after 2005 only for embedded systems).
Vista is gone (…), and Windows is again the dominant environment in PC/Laptops.
When it comes to everyday (non-production) use iOS/Android phones/tablets are doing everything else.
Come to server side, RedHat and relatives are virtually the only Linux used.
(see some stats here)

So what is the niche that Puppylinux should curve for itself in the 2% linux desktop/laptop market, if not the same-old same-old?
Which user-need should aim to cover?

Help people hold onto their turn-of-the-century machines?
Become an entry system for the aspiring hacker/developer?
Become a minimal modular system (a’la tinycore)?
Expand its size and become a “provide everything OOTB” (a’ la Mint or Elementary), but in a layered OS?
Maintain current focus and try to increase conformity (and likely size) with more traditional linuxes and built methods?
“whatever” as long as we have fun…?
All of the above?
None of the above?

More important WHO is going to do it?
Puppylinux is a doocracy, so: “unfortunately I do not know how to do it, but YOU must do it”, is unlikely to work.
Some capable coders must be enticed to support any prevailing views (if not all of them).
How, is this going to happen?

Finally HOW is it going to materialize coding-wise?
Behind close doors where the user just sees the “product” of one or more “developers”?
In an open collaborative versioning platform?
Exchanging “build recipes” in this (or another) forum?
Other?

I know that similar “discussions” went on in the past (as this section suggests), and like the previous ones this one may have no result other than an enjoyable “watering hole” discussion, but you never know…

PS: If you have other options for the poll pls let me know.
PS2: this is for puppylinux “the distribution”, not puppylinux inspired OSs
PS3: I put this up just out of curiosity and do not intend to personally act upon any outcome (except the "as long as we have fun" Laughing ).

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mistfire

Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 1164
Location: PH

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 06:54    Post subject:  

I think puppy should focus on under the hood improvement as well as user friendliness for newbies and windows refuges. Take a look at X-Slacko Slim it has a huge innovation compared to the mainline puppy.

When it comes to small size but modernized. Take a look at TazPuppy
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p310don

Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 1406
Location: Brisbane, Australia

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 08:18    Post subject:  

Having recently been forced to use Win10, I am not 100% sure which direction Puppy should take. It is SSSSOOOOOO much better already!!

There is a lot of development that is possibly restricted by the old idea of making an OS for ancient hardware. For me, Puppy has always been about freeing up as much resources for use by me, rather than the OS, on relatively new hardware.

I'd love to see a "best of linux" Puppy. Using the layered systems, the frugal installation, and other similar ideas that make Puppy great, but instead of always using minimal or sparse programs, use the best (most common).

That said, I think an important question to also ask, is "What stuff do you miss from older Pups, that should still be in the new ones??"
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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 2989
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 08:55    Post subject:  

I suggest a two path approach: one line of Puppys for people with new machines (not older than 5 years compliant with the newest hardware ,etc. Then another line of puppys for people with older but good, useful machines/hardware say post 2005. In the latter case settle on an older Puppy as base (say Tahr) and add libraries, etc. to keep it functional and going as long as possible (some people have already gone this route). One of Puppys strengths has always been to give older computers a new life, it will be a sad day if that ends.
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 14277
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 09:16    Post subject:  

Don't answer this today, people.... Laughing

Wait until April Fool's Day has passed,
and if this thread is still here, then ok!

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B.K. Johnson

Joined: 12 Oct 2009
Posts: 755

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 09:41    Post subject:  

nic007 wrote:
Quote:
I suggest a two path approach: one line of Puppys for people with new machines (not older than 5 years compliant with the newest hardware ,etc. Then another line of puppys for people with older but good, useful machines/hardware say post 2005.

Agreed! But does that mean that within path 1, there is a sub-path for 32bit and one for 64 bit? How do we accommodate the 2 bit types?

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tahrpup-6.0.5 PAE (upgraded from 6.0 =>6.0.2=>6.0.3=>6.0.5 via quickpet/PPM=Not installed); slacko-5.7 occasionally. Frugal install, pupsave file, multi OS flashdrive, FAT32 , SYSLINUX boot, CPU-Dual E2140, 4GB RAM

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nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 2989
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 11:04    Post subject:  

B.K. Johnson wrote:
nic007 wrote:
Quote:
I suggest a two path approach: one line of Puppys for people with new machines (not older than 5 years compliant with the newest hardware ,etc. Then another line of puppys for people with older but good, useful machines/hardware say post 2005.

Agreed! But does that mean that within path 1, there is a sub-path for 32bit and one for 64 bit? How do we accommodate the 2 bit types?


The first path will be the state of the art route. All new stuff are going the 64 bit route so I can't see that developers will put much effort into 32 bit systems.
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1111

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 12:39    Post subject:  

puppy has always had 3 great strengths


small so it runs fast and fits on things

functional so you can do what you need to do

hackable so you can make it your own and learn and have fun


i think a component system would be best

an entry level puppy that just works and has basic stuff
so the newbee can start using it
before he begins learning and hacking

the system is made up of

2 small cores
1 32 bit
1 64 bit

many sfs files and pets

a script to build and remaster cores sfs files and pets
so you could make one that has the stuff you want

i think its important to support 32 bit
because older computers are really an important part of puppy's niche

also with the endless nonsense
from windows 10 systemd and pulseaudio
there will continue to be a need for an alternative

i never use windows anymore
(its not even on any of my computers)
and many people i know have switched from windows to puppy

i hope the gurus will consider my humble opinion

but luckily nothing actually has to be done
the people on this forum are doing this as we speak

wanderer

Last edited by wanderer on Mon 01 Apr 2019, 13:15; edited 1 time in total
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 1327

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 12:57    Post subject:  

They should continue the incremental improvement without changing the basic functionality.

They should also make more use of the adrv and ydrv concepts (for example office applications and browser in adrv and 3d graphics drivers in ydrv)

Incorporate some of the improvements from Debian Dog and Fatdog.

Easier, more coherent wifi setup.

Easier remastering and remove builtin programs.

Flush tmpfs layer when saving ram to disk (like Debian Dog does) to eliminate the the running out of ram issue.

Better building and manipulation of sfs files (update pizzagood's sfs editor and include by default, have an sfs maker/adrv maker like apt2sfs in Debian Dog, convert save file/folder to sfs/adrv etc).

In other words, more of the same but better, not something different.
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1111

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 13:39    Post subject:  

dancytron has a point

the new puppy 8 is fantastic

improve ease of build and remastering

improve functionality

its already a great system

small functional and hackable


wanderer
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rockedge


Joined: 11 Apr 2012
Posts: 1194
Location: Connecticut, United States

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 14:23    Post subject:  

I like your style wanderer......I agree
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jd7654

Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 14:42    Post subject: Re: Where the puppylinux 9 should focus on?.  

Quote:
Help people hold onto their turn-of-the-century machines?

That wasn't the design purpose of Puppy, just a side benefit. Keep it that way.

Quote:
Become an entry system for the aspiring hacker/developer?

It already is, just keep the large distro repository and it will remain so.

Quote:
Become a minimal modular system (a’la tinycore)?

Those are different distros, not Puppy, let them exist on their own.

Quote:
Expand its size and become a “provide everything OOTB” (a’ la Mint or Elementary), but in a layered OS?

Leave the bigger stuff to derivatives and spins, keep Puppy proper slim and light.

Quote:
Maintain current focus and try to increase conformity (and likely size) with more traditional linuxes and built methods?

+1

Quote:
“whatever” as long as we have fun…?

...an admirable ideal

Quote:
All of the above?
None of the above?

-1
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jd7654

Joined: 06 Apr 2015
Posts: 297

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 14:52    Post subject:  

dancytron wrote:
<snipped, but good stuff>
In other words, more of the same but better, not something different.

Yep.
There are progressive forces of change that are trying to make Puppy into something it is not. Resist the call.
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Moat


Joined: 16 Jul 2013
Posts: 966
Location: Mid-mitten

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 15:42    Post subject:  

dancytron wrote:
They should continue the incremental improvement without changing the basic functionality.

..........(snip)...............

In other words, more of the same but better, not something different.


Yes - I'm 100% in agreement with all of what dancytron expressed. Above all, it must remain fully supportive of easily setting up and running frugally from a USB thumb drive, with a savefile - Puppy's defining, fundamental and most endearing, useful characteristic IMHO.

Bob
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musher0

Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 14277
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2019, 20:48    Post subject:  

Hi all.

My hope for the next version is:

1) Bring thoroughness to Puppy.

2) Stop proposing half-baked to the users.

Slim is ok, but not anorexic.

Three times today, and that is today only, I had to get or compile a full
package Puppy offered only a semi-version of.

E.g. neither free nor cal nor lsof nor less from busybox will provide you
with the parameters you need to do a decent job.

To get a decent < free > utility, I had to compile the procps package. And
I could not do that in Puppy without getting the libtool library, which was
NOT in the devx.

When I'm taking thoroughness and half-baked, I'm not kidding.

Busy-box is fine to pass at the switch-root border. But after that what if
the user needs the full functionalities.

The problem with Puppy is that's it's working on the surface of it only.
Sort of "on a wing and a prayer". Dig a bit, and you find all manner of
old or incomplete packages.

The argument : "Oh, that's because Puppy is built from an Ubuntu or
Debian or Slacko source" is falsehood. All those distros offer all the
"complete" and "recent" packages that I mentioned. So it's not the fault
of Ubuntu, Debian, etc.

It's the fault of somebody here, or of a group of somebodies here, at
PuppyLinux Woof-CE, who decided NOT to get the complete packages.
Was that person / were they hoping that no one would notice? Or is that
person / they playing God deciding what users should be using?

Neither attitude is proper. We want an honest Puppy. Yes slim, but when
it is offering a package, it should be offering the complete package. Puppy
should NOT be annoying / teasing / making mad / its users. Best way to
lose them.

To use a musical example:
The main rhythmic theme of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony is
< "ta-da-da-damm" >, Giving the public just < "ta-da-damm" > as the
main rhythmic theme of that symphony won't do.

Same here. Puppy needs to respect more, both the authors of the
software it is using -- and its users.

Best regards.

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musher0
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I was born to love and not to hate. (Sophocles)
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