Why is wireless so complicated in Puppy?

[olddog]

I love Puppy, but have always found getting online wirelessly to be a pain. For some strange reason three different methods are provided for doing so, which is an admission that none of them are very good. If one of them were good, the other two would not be needed.

Recently I tried out Haiku on my trusty T61. To go online it first scanned the various wireless signals in the vicinity, and asked me to select one. It then asked for the password, and Bob's your uncle, I was online.

Compare that with the Puppy alternatives. The most complex one, the so-called Network Wizard, presents you with 12 possible buttons to press. This is madness.

I suspect many people who try Puppy give up when presented with this disaster. In fairness, it was all written many years ago. Perhaps it's time for a re-write, with simplicity as the aim.

Sorry for ranting, but I have wasted so much time with this.

[Mike Walsh]

@ olddog:-

I cannot agree with a single thing you've said in your post. The simple reason there's 3 alternatives is because some people find one works better than the others for them.

The method you've described for getting online with Haiku is exactly what SimpleNetworkSetup (SNS) does. It scans for signals; you choose the one you want; you supply the password, and.....you're online. (Well, that's the way it's always worked for me, anyway.)

Frisbee, mmm.... Yes, it is complicated. Hence why I never use it myself.....but some people find that it's the only one that works for them.

And Dougal's Network Wizard.....it simply gives you a lot more options. Some people like having lots of options....

It rather sounds as though you don't like having to make choices?

(*shrug*)
----------------------------------

If you're having connection problems, it can be down to a lot more things than the connection tool. The adapter itself; is the driver support there for it?; how 'saturated' with signals is your neighbourhood? Etc., etc., etc.....

By & large, Barry's original SNS just works, 99% of the time....and it is so simple to use. I don't think you could get much easier...


Mike.

[Gordie]

@ olddog,

You are so right. This was (and sometimes still is) a source of frustration for me. Man, even Slackware is not so complicated and difficult to use in that regard

[olddog]

Mike,

Three things. First, even Barry's simple method is more complicated
than you have said. and much more complicated than Haiku (which works 100% of the time) and in my experience it (Barry's method) works more like 30% of the time than 99%.

Second, choice is all very well, but having to make choices when you don't understand the reasons or the consequences is not a benefit in any way. As an example, if the "great British public" had understood the consequences of voting for Brexit, most of them would never have done so.

Now that they have done, sadly, they're not willing to admit they made a mistake.

Third, I take your point that other factors might be at play, but given that Haiku works perfectly on the same machine at the same time (minutes before or after) I can't help thinking that it's not an external issue.

You probably understand exactly how all this networking stuff works, but many of us don't, and I speak for the great ignorant mass.

@ olddog:-

I cannot agree with a single thing you've said in your post. The simple reason there's 3 alternatives is because some people find one works better than the others for them.

The method you've described for getting online with Haiku is exactly what SimpleNetworkSetup (SNS) does. It scans for signals; you choose the one you want; you supply the password, and.....you're online. (Well, that's the way it's always worked for me, anyway.)

Frisbee, mmm.... Yes, it is complicated. Hence why I never use it myself.....but some people find that it's the only one that works for them.

And Dougal's Network Wizard.....it simply gives you a lot more options. Some people like having lots of options....

It rather sounds as though you don't like having to make choices?

(*shrug*)
----------------------------------

If you're having connection problems, it can be down to a lot more things than the connection tool. The adapter itself; is the driver support there for it?; how 'saturated' with signals is your neighbourhood? Etc., etc., etc.....

By & large, Barry's original SNS just works, 99% of the time....and it is so simple to use. I don't think you could get much easier...


Mike.

[Mike Walsh]

@ olddog:-

You probably understand exactly how all this networking stuff works, but many of us don't, and I speak for the great ignorant mass.

Coo, if only.....

Even though I've been messing around with these here boxes of black magic for coming up to close on 40 years now (1979 - the year I left school; Christ, where does the time go?), I would hesitate to say that I understand networking any differently to you.....or the rest of the 'great unwashed'.

The only advantage I perhaps have over you is that during those 4 decades I've picked up many, many 'tricks', 'dodges', and 'workarounds'. I've got quite a list I can run through to 'troubleshoot' and attempt to get to the bottom of things.....hopefully!

Even I frequently have to admit defeat with certain issues, often because during all those years those issues have never in fact been 'fixed' by anybody else, either.....

Experience ain't all it's cracked-up to be, believe me!


Mike.

[Smithy]

Hmm, I must have taken puppy to maybe twenty different pc computers
And can’t remember a problem with Barry’s SNS, just had to say “Type yer F****** password in, at which point, bang, up comes Firefox like a rat up a drain[ipe and they then look happy. That was wireless and router
Scenarios.
Haiku?

Radeon’s and that video card stuff, that’s not always automatic, blooming hate that when one gets a pixellated mess on bootup. Even Win gives you something basic res wise. Only seen it spazzed up (sorry no offense intended with that word) on a Packard Bell and a couple of Radeon lappies.

[8Geee]

I would be careful logging into 'the strongest signal' present. Thats what short-cut programs do, and that router might not be the one intended (re: a bad guy in disguise). I use Network Wizard (DougAl) for both wifi and ethernet. The latter is dirt-simple, the wifi lets you select the wifi router for connection. Just nknow the name of the place you're in, and it shoulld be easy to find. I admit in some locations there may be 20 or more connections available, but thats the world today.

Regards
8Geee

[Burn_IT]

I would be careful logging into 'the strongest signal' present. Thats what short-cut programs do, and that router might not be the one intended (re: a bad guy in disguise).

The automatic attachment to a network should be removed for this very reason.
Many is the time I've seen serious machine corruption because it has connected to the wrong network.

[olddog]

Nobody is suggesting choosing the strongest signal. I may not be a wireless wizard myself, but I do know where my internet signal comes from.

What is interesting is that I have tried the three flavours of Puppy wireless connection utilities on several different Thinkpads, and they seldom work first time. And no, it's not because I can't type a password properly.

But in Windows and Haiku, on the same computers, no problem.

Part of the difficulty, I am sure, is that it's not clear in what order to press the 12 buttons in Dougal's "wizard". If it was rewritten to be more intuitive, or better explanations were provided, I might have more hope of success.

Also, some people seem to have problems, and others don't. I wonder if the various different wireless cards have a bearing on this.

I would be careful logging into 'the strongest signal' present. Thats what short-cut programs do, and that router might not be the one intended (re: a bad guy in disguise). I use Network Wizard (DougAl) for both wifi and ethernet. The latter is dirt-simple, the wifi lets you select the wifi router for connection. Just nknow the name of the place you're in, and it shoulld be easy to find. I admit in some locations there may be 20 or more connections available, but thats the world today.

Regards
8Geee

[Burn_IT]

I don't mean the auto connection AFTER a suitable network has been selected, I mean the automatic "selection"/connection to a network in the first place.

I have had problems when people visiting me have wanted wireless connection via my router.
I refuse to give it to them until I have been allowed to check their device for nasties - and yes it has caused problems.

I also refuse to allow BT (or whoever) routers that have so called guest access.

[rerwin]

olddog,
I consider myself to be a current maintainer of all 3 of the network managers. I (and others) have made several changes to SNS in the past half year or so that might improve its performance for you.

Could you try the version in either of the bionic 8 pups? My goal is to keep it simple and reliable for the user, or at least identify reasons for its limitations. Then please tell me how it fails you, if it still does.
Richard

[HerrBert]

I wonder if the various different wireless cards have a bearing on this.

In my experience, they do.

For example, on my Lenovo ideapad s10e with Broadcom Wireless Adapter, SimpleNetworkSetup does not connect to my WLAN automatically at boottime, whereas frisbee and Dougals Network Wizard do so. My ASUS EeePC does connect with any of them at boot.

Seems to depend on how fast hardware can be initialized at booting...

Thus i'm glad to have the choice

[stemsee]

Try Wifi-TrayNet and Wifi-ScannerM or Wifi-Scanner (for multiple wifi devices). None of the included three can easily connect to eduroam, or many types of APs. These are both simple and/or as complicated as you could want.

[olddog]

Thank you; I will. And I will report back.

BTW, having recently switched provider, I am having to update the connection information on each laptop. Just did so on another T61, and it worked first time with SNS.

olddog,
I consider myself to be a current maintainer of all 3 of the network managers. I (and others) have made several changes to SNS in the past half year or so that might improve its performance for you.

Could you try the version in either of the bionic 8 pups? My goal is to keep it simple and reliable for the user, or at least identify reasons for its limitations. Then please tell me how it fails you, if it still does.
Richard

[olddog]

I believe these are Windows programs. I don't have a problem with my internet service provider; just a problem getting online with Puppy.

But thanks anyway.

Try Wifi-TrayNet and Wifi-ScannerM or Wifi-Scanner (for multiple wifi devices). None of the included three can easily connect to eduroam, or many types of APs. These are both simple and/or as complicated as you could want.

[Moat]

I believe these are Windows programs.

No - those are a brand-new set of Puppy WiFi tools, developed by stemsee himself - see here;

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=112660

That may be just what you're lookin' for, and certainly worth a shot. And anyway, they need more attention and testing by the greater Puppy community - and if proven worthy, eventual adoption into the default Puppy WoofCE build system as a potential replacement to the existing WiFi tools you're having issues with. Win-win!

Bob

[Burn_IT]

Was that a double vote for Windows there???

[cthisbear]

olddog:

Ever since Frisbee by Jeminiah...a brilliant girl..

I have had no issues with wireless in Puppy....ever.

If the driver is there...Frisbee runs.

First ran wireless on an Acer laptop when mu had a triple Puppy Release.

Chris.

[Moat]

Was that a double vote for Windows there???

Oh, hell no!

T'was a vote of confidence in stemsee AND the Puppy testing community!

As cthisbear mentioned, I've always had great luck with Frisbee, and use it exclusively as it's fast/easy and has never failed to *just work* on all of my hardware. Win-wi... errr... two thumbs up!

Bob

[Mike Walsh]

@ olddog:-

Just out of curiosity, what wireless adapter are you using? Perhaps some-one could give advice based on experience with it.

EDIT:- Ah; Broadcom. Huh. The one chipset provider who steadfastly refuses to even acknowledge the existence of Linux. Yep, they're a PITA all right; most of the available Linux Broadcom drivers/workarounds have had to be 'reverse-engineered' as it is.....


Mike.