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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1099

PostPosted: Thu 21 Mar 2019, 06:12    Post subject:  

hi all

i think corepup/tinycore would be a good place to start

it already does everything we are talking about with ease

we could look at the core

and make a puppy version of it

maybe find correlates in woof-ce distro specs

then look at the tcz that make up the basic x system

then look at the tcz that make up the apps
(firefox vlc viewnior etc)

dcore downloads and packages apps from debian

so that is the next step to look at

its easy to symlink an unsquashed 2fs image on a usb

to tinycore as a save file for usb like puppy has

the normal save file (home) for corepup/tinycore
is on the hard drive like puppy

by having a script that changes the names
of the save files (home and tce)
you can make multiple versions
that you can access at will

etc etc etc

i have actually figured out a lot of cool stuff with corepup

so we will start with a completely functional and supported system
and only will need to puppify it

oh and make a simple script to automate the build process
so it can be replicated

i will start to look into that now

wanderer
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1099

PostPosted: Thu 21 Mar 2019, 11:09    Post subject:  

hi all

so now i am looking at what is in corepup core
and comparing it to woof-ce distro specs
to get an idea of what to leave marked "yes"
to give a small working core

1st step

wanderer
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 1875

PostPosted: Thu 21 Mar 2019, 12:22    Post subject:  

wiak wrote:
trying to add actual new distro repo/ woof-CE script handling for the new base system to woof-CE code would certainly seem to me to be a nightmare. ...(lots of other distro types seem to have been stripped out of woof-CE over time - Trisquel and Devuan - presumably because becoming bloated and too hard to handle all the different cases. But I don't know - Devuan a type of Debian, so maybe woof-CE can still handle that easily enough at least). For the Debian-like distros, debootstrap is the way to go though... simple and easy to program distros with that - as Fred has shown with newer Dogs (mklive-stretch for example).

wiak


I think that Woof can handle Devuan. I believe their is a Devaun pup. Anyway, there is an alternative to adapting woof to handle a different type of repo. The alternative is to write a program to turn said alien repo into a puppy repo. This could be done with non puppy tools. Their are two downsides though, which are maintaining the repo (i.e. handling updates) and have the server resources to host the repo.

Maintenance could to a degree be automated. However, if the alien distro relies on complex scripts to install, remove or re-install a package then this approach could be buggy. However, the conversion tool could have a list of post-install and un-install scripts to swap out for the ones in the alien repo. These would be developed over time as bugs are discovered.
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1099

PostPosted: Thu 21 Mar 2019, 12:26    Post subject:  

rufwoof

how did you do your easyOS system

wanderer
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1099

PostPosted: Thu 21 Mar 2019, 12:38    Post subject:  

it would be great if the minimal woof-ce
could use all of the tons of puppy sfs and pets already made

a script to make them usable in woof-ce min ?

wanderer
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 1875

PostPosted: Thu 21 Mar 2019, 22:16    Post subject:  

wiak wrote:


EDIT2: The reason I mentioned Void Linux, and why I'm myself currently interested in it, is that it does have its own independent package manager/compiling build system called XBPS I think. So if void repos were small and good enough that could be used on top of a tiny Puppy boot system. The result would not be void linux, it would be a puppy but with void linux package management and void packages - not like Tazpup with Slitaz, which only starts as Puppy but really drives normal Slitaz once it gets going (I do like Tazpup a lot though, it's normal slitaz but with Puppy save options etc, which is a huge bonus). No, this would be more like BionicPup say, but with void repos and using void package manager rather than modifed pkg or petget to fetch the desired void packages.

wiak


x-slacko slim seems to support installing void linux packages. Maybe for this reason it would be a good choice of puppies to create a stripped down version. I created a new thread about stripping down a puppy.
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1408
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Fri 22 Mar 2019, 00:50    Post subject:  

s243a wrote:
I created a new thread about stripping down a puppy.


Yes, that's good initiative. Clearly a lot of potential contributors are interested in that, so a dedicated development thread for that purpose should help. The result wouldn't be a woof-CE built pup probably but at the end of the day I doubt users really care how a distro is created - a great distro is a great distro and where to find info and download for such is what most people really want to know.

wiak

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Tiny Linux Blog: http://www.tinylinux.info/
makepup: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=965541
tinycore/slitaz: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=990130#990130
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1408
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Fri 22 Mar 2019, 00:52    Post subject:  

s243a wrote:

x-slacko slim seems to support installing void linux packages. Maybe for this reason it would be a good choice of puppies to create a stripped down version.


Hmmm, that's a very interesting pup (I'm downloading it now) - mistfire is (and has been) doing some really great work on this forum, though newcomers probably don't know much about that.

However, though it says in the X-slacko-slim description it has support for various linux repos (including void packages) I doubt (?) that includes full dependency resolution, which is really the crux of the matter, and would need special package manager support (hence my mentioning void's package manager XPBS itself). Still, X-slacko-slim, or something similar would be a good start.

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Tiny Linux Blog: http://www.tinylinux.info/
makepup: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=965541
tinycore/slitaz: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=990130#990130
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1099

PostPosted: Sat 23 Mar 2019, 11:27    Post subject:  

hi wiak

are you going to do a woof-ce minimal pup

based on x-slacko slim

just asking

wanderer
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mistfire

Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 1143
Location: PH

PostPosted: Sat 23 Mar 2019, 12:26    Post subject:  

@wiak thank you for recognizing TazPuppy.

About multi-package format support in X-Slacko Slim it supposed to work the same as PPM when it comes to package dependency resolving.
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1408
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Sat 23 Mar 2019, 18:35    Post subject:  

mistfire wrote:
@wiak thank you for recognizing TazPuppy.

About multi-package format support in X-Slacko Slim it supposed to work the same as PPM when it comes to package dependency resolving.


TazPuppy is definitely one of the distributions developed on Puppy Forum that is leading the way in terms of innovation and possible ways forward for Puppy itself more generally IMO.

Regarding X-Slacko Slim saying it can install from void linux repositories - surely that does not include the ability that it does any dependency resolution for void packages? I can understand that PPM has been written to make best effort attempt to resolve dependencies for Debian/Ubuntu/Slackware maybe, but I feel it is unlikely to do the same for void.

So I would guess it can install and individual void package but up the the user to work out and install the dependencies manually for void case?

I also imagine that would also be a limitation in sc0ttman's pkg program (if that were added to X-Slacko Slim) when it comes to trying to install packages from void linux repos??

wiak

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Tiny Linux Blog: http://www.tinylinux.info/
makepup: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=965541
tinycore/slitaz: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=990130#990130
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darry19662018

Joined: 31 Mar 2018
Posts: 436
Location: Rakaia

PostPosted: Sat 23 Mar 2019, 19:03    Post subject:  

Void would be a great base for a Puppy though:)
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1408
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Sat 23 Mar 2019, 19:17    Post subject:  

wanderer wrote:
hi wiak

are you going to do a woof-ce minimal pup

based on x-slacko slim

just asking

wanderer


No wanderer, personally I have given up working with woof-CE; I had no direct access rights to that anyway, which is one reason I ended up creating makepup, so I could semi-automate woof-CE builds without having to have my code continually checked and accepted or not accepted by woof-CE 'gatekeepers'.

Also, given a complicated to make recipe, woof-CE then just repeatably spews out the same iso (well, okay, you can modify config script to not include a few packages, but nothing major easy really) - I don't really see the point of rebuilding same iso after so much work adding new recipe - that's not very flexible (no user choices of Desktop Manager etc, so many questions to answer when building via woof-CE scripts - no simple config to allow a fully unattended build via commandline script, but little point anyway if much the same iso built each time IMO. It's a recipe for building these kind of pups, so good for that history at least.

Having thus given up entirely on woof-CE-related development I have also asked someone I noticed was using makepup if they would take over its maintenance and development, which they have agreed to. I believe their plan is to merge makepup into woof-CE itself, which would certainly help with makepup's maintenance since changes in woof-CE can break makepup itself (and do).

I'm still interested in 'Puppy' though, or at least in what a future Pup-type system would be like. My view of woof-CE is that it managed to do its original design job, which was to allow 'recipes' for building a Pup from a few upstream distro repos - though mainly only Debian-based and Slackware.

My interest in X-Slacko Slim, aside from it looking like a nice piece of remastering work, was mainly because it claims to be able to handle packages from a considerable number of upstream repos (including void) but I suspect that does not include the pky manager dependency resolution mechanisms which are really needed overall.

I find TazPuppy much more interesting and innovative really though, and more so than any new recipe added to woof-CE for one-off Pup iso builds (we already have the Dogs doing already perfect Debian/Ubuntu puppy-sized with full puppy-like functionality and more, afterall; frugal install, root user, sfs handling and so on).
Funny how someone questioned why I included TazPuppy in my first post list of distros being developed on this forum - the reason is simple: it is innovative and thus important for Pup future. CorePup is more straightforward since really just puppified TinyCoreLinux, but thats a good illustration/exemplar of what is needed for any pup build system: flexibility, modularity, user-selectable choice etc.

wiak

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Tiny Linux Blog: http://www.tinylinux.info/
makepup: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=965541
tinycore/slitaz: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=990130#990130

Last edited by wiak on Sat 23 Mar 2019, 20:46; edited 5 times in total
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wiak

Joined: 11 Dec 2007
Posts: 1408
Location: not Bulgaria

PostPosted: Sat 23 Mar 2019, 19:25    Post subject:  

darry19662018 wrote:
Void would be a great base for a Puppy though:)


Very good base I feel. Its weakness is mainly just lack of documentation and too many contradictions in its provided wiki documentation. I know; I've been working on installing it. It's package manager seems 'great!' - very much like using apt in Debian, but completely independent written by void team. The way packages are separated means has flexibility required to allow building of very small distros using them. Yes, a great base for Puppy - just need build scripts produced like mistfire does for TazPuppy - which should be commandline driven to allow user-config-customisable unattended builds (such mechanism also makes optional GUI easy).

Certainly means Puppies built that way won't be independent themselves since relying on upstream Void repos, but woof-CE Pups are entirely not independent creations nowadays anyway - the rely on huge Debian/Slackware for their main functionality. At least Void allows compiling of void packages and the compiles in void repo are specially made and modular - and, yes, no systemd in Void itself (nor the somewhat messy old sysVinit) - well worth adopting 'runit' as used in Void instead - its service start/stop mechanisms is simple and flexible (using sv start/stop/restart service_name etc). EasyOS is a different kettle of fish: it borrows a lot from Puppy, but is innovative and doesn't depend on Debian/Slackware as far as I understand it - independent and new.

wiak

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Tiny Linux Blog: http://www.tinylinux.info/
makepup: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=965541
tinycore/slitaz: http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=990130#990130
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wanderer

Joined: 20 Oct 2007
Posts: 1099

PostPosted: Sun 24 Mar 2019, 14:37    Post subject:  

i note there is on the forum

a myriad

of puppy inspired projects


i just tried dpup

a beautiful piece of work


wanderer
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