Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Sat 14 Dec 2019, 05:20
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Slacko 5.7.2 Community Edition
Moderators: Flash, JohnMurga
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
Page 1 of 10 [136 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, ..., 8, 9, 10 Next
Author Message
mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3547
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2019, 17:11    Post subject:  Slacko 5.7.2 Community Edition
Subject description: 4 NEWBIES & LOW-RAM COMPUTERS
 

CE_Slacko-5.7.2:

It’s identified as CE (community edition) Slacko as its contents are the efforts of many of Puppy’s Community. My part has primarily been that of packager. As I worked on it the refrain from Louis Armstrong’s rendition of the “Dummy Song”, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2KgeBkFUcw often rattled around in my brain. Worth listening to before you consider my boring tale.

You’ll find it here: https://www.mediafire.com/folder/qs5aaidclm5im/.

What you get is a Slacko 5.7 (Slackware 14.0 compatible) which on a Quad-Core booted to desktop and opened PupSysInfo to reveal that only 68 Mbs of RAM had actually been used, although the entire 7,860 Mbs of RAM present were available for use. A Pentium-M Thinkpad T42 needed only 91 Mbs. [More about RAM, later].

I took Sailor Enceladus’ Slacko 5.7.1_r6231.iso, https://www.mediafire.com/folder/kwhxksubf00ny/14.0#myfiles but substituted rockedge’s 4.14.63_full_rt (Real-time) kernel. http://rockedge.org/kernels/. The efficiency of a Real-Time kernel surprised me. Before testing, I had assumed it would require more, not less, RAM to perform a given task. I attribute most of the lowering of RAM needed to just to operate, mentioned above, to rockedge’s Real-Time kernel.

My goal was to construct a Puppy for older computers owned by recent Windows emigres. Much of the information on this thread is provided for the purpose of orienting such 'newbies' to how Puppy works, and differs from Windows. The target box is one with 512 Mbs of RAM, or less, perhaps unable to handle sse2 encryption, but, if capable could run firefox quantum OOTB. Inspired by jemimah’s Salukis, and the Carolinas which followed it, I originally intended a Puppy with a minimum of “builtin” user-applications, but easily expandable if the user chose to have the adrv.sfs load on bootup. [I’ll explain later why this last goal was largely abandoned]. However, two other aspects of Saluki also played a role in its design.

Saluki and the Carolina used a Control Panel to provide an easier-for-newbies-to-navigate method of customizing the Desktop and configuring settings than a ‘Stock’ Puppy’s maze of a menu system. And it’s Thunar Filemanager presented newbies less of a learning curve that rox. Desiring, however, to remain with the low-resource demands of JWM & rox, radky’s JWMDesk and PupControl were used, updated to their most recent versions, along with other enhancements by radky. While rox remains the default file-manager, the dual-pane xfe was installed to supplement it. Further newbie support was provided by AppFinder configured to use Puppy’s Categories definitions. One advantage of AppFinder is that when a Category is selected in its Left-Panel, not only are what may be to a newbie the strange names of applications displayed in the Right-Panel, but also a description of their use [read from the Comments argument of their respective desktop files].

“Utility” is just a noun for something which is useful. If it isn’t useful, why should it be present at all? Too many apps end up in such a ubiquitous category. And there’s a great deal of overlap between applications which show up under “Settings” and those which show up under “Setup”. I chose the following ‘dividing line’: if an application was entirely or primarily one which only provided INFORMATION, I assigned it to Settings. If it was primarily for changing settings it was assigned to Setup.

Unfortunately, under the current Categories recognized by Puppies, no distinction is made between setting up the operating system you’ve booted into, and the operating system you want either by way of remastering or creating a vehicle for installing to another medium. I’ve tried to alleviate that condition somewhat by modifying the Category arguments of some application’s desktop files in order that they appear on the Menu adjacent to similar applications, or those which are often used in combination (e.g. grub4dos after gparted). Some of those changes may be considered ‘unorthodox’. So, if an application isn’t where you’re used to finding it, continue looking. And before you panic, open Menu>Setup>Menu Manager – Edit the Menu.

If configuration of an application might not be needed except as part of one’s initial setup and not often thereafter, AND radky’s JWMDesk or PupControl provided a relatively easy way to find the configuration application, I used Menu>Setup>Menu Manager -- Edit the Menu to turn its display off. If you really want it on your Menu, reverse the process. Before doing so, consider the following: (1) Its /usr/share/applications/...desktop, used by JWM to generate Menu listings remains and can be clicked to start the application. And (2) ApplicationFinder --there’s a launcher next to the Start-Menu-- employs a different technique to generate its Menu listings. So the application will still appear on it.

Very few Applications were actually removed. Those which were, obviously, can be reinstalled via Puppy Package Manager. The most obvious applications you won’t find are:
Abiword -- replaced by focuswriter. See this thread for advice about it: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=99763
gmeasures -- replaced by don570’s Puppy Units
geany -- by oscartalks’ version
galculator by rufwoof’s version

All remaining Applications, such as those by zigbert, shinobar and rcrsn51 have been updated to their latest version as of the end of January 2019.

Seamonkey 2.35 was chosen for inclusion. I’ll discuss this along with alternatives later in this thread.

The necessary Qt4 and Qt5 libs for those applications I commonly used are builtin. They may prove sufficient for your needs as well.

Some Screenshots: Note on 'The Western Theme' the usually hidden Additional Panel is displayed. Look in Options from JWMDesk. By default you'll have the usual desktop icons. I've removed them except for Save and Trash which I've Right-Clicked and dropped icons of my choice. Pwidgets 2.4.1 provides Conky. There are many widgets available, and many Clock-faces. It will support dogRadio but not some of the fancy displays of newer versions.
HighNoon.png
 Description   Note Trashbin replaced by Spittoon
 Filesize   210.64 KB
 Viewed   3256 Time(s)

HighNoon.png

ThinkpadsDesktop.png
 Description   I know. Wrong kind of Pups. But it shows a community.
 Filesize   166.45 KB
 Viewed   3329 Time(s)

ThinkpadsDesktop.png


Last edited by mikeslr on Wed 13 Feb 2019, 19:08; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3547
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2019, 17:12    Post subject: Old Computers -- Booting and Web-browsers  

The Thinkpad T42 mentioned in the first post was manufactured in or about 2004, thus now 15 year ago. It uses a Pentium-M processor. Since around 1995 almost all computers have supported PAE --physical address extension. Some, however, like the Pentium-M, while supporting PAE, do not 'display its flag'. As a result, booting will fail when a standard boot-code is used.

Both the isolinux.cfg and grub.cfg in the ISO have been modified to support the forcepae argument needed to boot PAE-enabled computers which don't display the flag, such as the Pentium-M. Grub.cfg provides it as a selection option with the wording "FORCEPAE" . It's automatic under isolinux as that provides no choices; and I figured the presence of the argument wouldn't hurt if not needed.

Note to those who understand scripting: Did I do that right? Please advise.

Note to Users: If you later employ Puppy Installer (Menu>Setup>Puppy Installer) to install this Puppy to another medium (such as a hard-drive or USB-Key) it will not automatically write the 'forcepae' argument. You'll have to edit the boot-menu's kernel line to include it, something like this:

kernel /vmlinuz forcepae

The above line can include other arguments and specification as to where Puppy's files are located. Don't hesitate to ask questions either here on on the Beginner's Section of the Forum.

Cautionary note to those new to Puppy: Puppy Installer will offer the options of doing a "Full" or "Frugal" install. Those terms don't mean what you may think. Before choosing "Full" be sure that you either need or want that. See, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1018171#1018171 and the many posts advising against a Full install except in limited circumstances. Short take-away: Frugal is NOT a 'cut-down' Full.

The purpose of a computer operating system is to run applications. It is customary that Puppies provide OOTB applications to perform the basic needs of a User. Menu>Setup>Puppy Package Manager provides access to more specialized or feature-rich applications. Caution: Being Slackware 14.0 ‘binary-compatible’ PPM can access Slackware and Slackware-based repositories. Sometimes what you’ll obtain from them may not be an application which will work OOTB or ever. Until you know how to find an application’s components which PPM may miss it is better to only choose Puppy’s own repositories, or look for applications on the Additional Software Forum. The builtin Seamonkey Web-browser’s Speed dial provides two Puppy-Centric Search launchers which may be helpful.

That said, with the exception of Web-browsers, if your computer has sufficient RAM and processing power to provide satisfactory performance, CE Slacko includes the necessary components to run the most current versions of applications such as LibreOffice, Gimp and many others.

Web-browsers: These applications are in a constant race to provide the graphic-rich, but RAM-demanding, webpages and counter efforts by miscreants to infect computers with malware.

Despite that it is now four years old, Seamonkey was chosen for inclusion because it continues to be, to a large extent, functional. It can obtain access to most Websites, and run Google-Searches. Although I’ve found no way to install html5 into it, Youtube still –perhaps reluctantly-- will accept flash as an alternative. [Menu>Internet>Install & Upgrade Flash will keep it up to date.] Almost all of the once available Addons can no longer be obtained, among them such filtering devices such as NoScript. But Puppy provides its easy substitute: Menu>Internet>Pup-Advert Blocker. Or to customize your own read this thread, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1007983#1007983 and use the customized Search Engines on Seamonkey for further information about “hosts files”.

Seamonkey was chosen because, depending on the Youtube video selected, it required from 50 to 100 Mbs LESS RAM to play than in the current Palemoon. [Palemoon is a fork from firefox, designed to be less RAM-demanding than the former]. Seamonkey, however, can not play videos using any of these formats: H.264, Media Source Extensions, and MSE & WebM VP9. Fortunately, most videos on the Web don’t use them; though videos on Youtube seem to use them more often. If Seamonkey can play it, netvideohunter –icon at the top-right-- can download it.

To overcome those limitations, you’ll need a newer Web-browser. Both fredx181’s Firefox Quantum Portable, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=978010#978010 and Mike Walsh’s Palemoon portable, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1015085#1015085 run well. These are portables like the portables under Windows. They can be run from anywhere. The dependencies mentioned in those posts, as of this date, have already been installed, except for the Menu pets you’ll find on those posts. You can also run recent versions of firefox esr and Palemoon, but doing so may not be as simple as “Extract to someplace and (inside extracted folder) run the "ff" script or “plmn” script; run meaning Left-Click. [To Extract, Right-Click the tar.gz downloaded and select UExtract]. Look for discussions and advice on The Additional Software Section > Browsers and Internet.

Edit Feb 14, 2019: Mike Walsh just published a firefox esr portable, http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1018511#1018511

If you have a very old computer, Seamonkey, itself, may not work. Web-browsers depend on your computer being able manage data. Some old computers only provide the instruction set known as SSE. The standard for all currently published Web-browser, however, is at least SSE2, and most computers since 2000 include the hardware for that standard. I think –but don’t have a computer to confirm-- that the included Seamonkey will function even if your computer is only SSE capable.

To determine if your computer supports the SSE2 standard open a terminal –Menu>Utilities>Lxterminal-- and type the code:

cat /proc/cpuinfo

Using Lxterminal, you can copy the above, then paste it and press Return.

Scroll down to a long paragraph starting with the word “flags”. If “sse2” isn’t among its ‘flags’, your computer does not support that protocol. Don’t despair.

Edit: Mike Walsh has provided a portable version of the SSE Palemoon disussed below: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=1022606#1022606

Walter Dynes and Watchdog have come to your rescue and published a version of Palemoon which will function, palemoon-27.9.4-p4-sse-glibc219tweak.pet, found at the bottom of this post: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=973676#973676. Note and look for the designation 'sse'.

Currently, I am unaware of any recent Google-Chrome or Chrome-clone web-browsers that will run under any Slacko 5.7.x. The last one which would is either GC-45 or 48. See this post for links. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=900011#900011. These are now, respectively, 5 and 4 years old.

Recommendations: I strongly advise against using any other than the latest Web-browser for internet banking or other transactions where transmitting your personal information is involved. I recommend that you take the time to Search the Forum for discussions about protecting yourself while on the internet.

Last edited by mikeslr on Mon 29 Apr 2019, 10:36; edited 11 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3547
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2019, 17:12    Post subject: RAM, adrvs & ydrvs and Builtin Tools  

Some understanding of how a Frugal Puppy works is necessary. Each time you boot into a Frugal Puppy it creates in Random Access Memory, RAM, your system by copying from Storage (your hard-or-USB-drive or CD/DVD) some of the files on Storage into RAM and creating in RAM pointers to the rest of the files. Those files are located on Storage in “file-systems”, some of which are compressed. If you file-browse to the drive/partition on which a Frugal Puppy is located you’ll see all, or some of the following files-systems. Part of the names of these will associate it with their particular Puppy version:

adrv.sfs is a compressed/Squashed file-system (sfs) containing additional (hence “a”) applications, The adrv.sfs for Slacko_5.7.2CE would bear the name adrv_ceslacko_5.7.2.sfs.
ydrv.sfs – other additional or special purpose applications
puppy_version.sfs – applications necessary for the OS to function and those which will fill the common needs of users. This can be referred to as ‘the base system’. A puppy_version.sfs will always be present.
zdrv...sfs – drivers needed for applications to communicate with your computer’s hardware –keyboard, mouse, graphics card, etc. Also firmware needed for that purpose unless also present is a
fdrv...sfs –firmware. [The reason firmware is sometimes packaged separately is that it can be used with any Puppy. If you already downloaded it, you don’t have to download it again. Drivers, however, communicate with the Kernel (vmlinuz), sort of like an engine for Linux. There are many different kernels and the drivers they use are unique to each].
Some Puppies have neither an zdrv nor an fdrv: drivers and firmware being located in the puppy_version.sfs.
ExtraSFSes –applications such as LibreOffice Suite, or firefox web-browser packaged as an SFS rather than a pet. These will have an informative name, such as LibreOffice.sfs or Graphic.sfs.
A Savefile, such as ceslackosave.sfs or a Savefolder such as ceslackosave. The latter is not compressed. These are created by the user and hold his/her applications’ settings and the additional applications she/he installed.

Some of those files-systems may have the same or similar but slightly different files which link to other files. So the application which creates an Operating system in RAM includes a routine for assigning priority as to which file-system the pointers in RAM will point. That priority is in the order given above, from top to bottom, EXCEPT that the SaveFile or SaveFolder you create will always have priority. In the event of a conflict between files, the ones in your SaveFile/Folder will over-write any other. Its files will be part of your “merged file system” in RAM. For example, CE_Slacko_5.7.2 has Seamonkey 2.35 in puppy_ceslacko_5.7.2.sfs, part of its base system. But if you were to install Seamonkey 2.46 it would become part of your SaveFile/Folder. Seamonkey 2.35 would remain, but the pointers created in RAM on bootup would point to Seamonkey 2.46 and opening Seamonkey would open Seamonkey 2.46.

The target market being low-spec computers, my initial idea was to imitate Salukis & Carolinas: (1) a prepared adrv which was not necessary for the operating system to boot to desktop; and (2) builtin tools to create your own adrv and SFSes. As I worked on Slacko 5.7.2CE that idea evolved.

Jemimah and the Carolina Team knew what they were doing and could woof-build those Puppies ‘from scratch’. I, on the other hand, in order to obtain a ‘lean’ OS had to remove applications. While Saluki/Carolina was adrv-aware (if an adrv is present it would be used), I don’t think it was ydrv-aware. But Slacko is. So I decided to make use of both: adrv for additional ‘bells & whistles’ applications you could ‘live-without’ if you had to; ydrv for applications you either couldn’t use –why have scanner software if you don’t have a scanner-- or were unlikely to want. Does anyone actually use didwiki?

If you aren’t going to use them, why waste bandwidth downloading them, and storage to hold them? The ones I prepared can be downloaded from the link provided in the initial post to the ISO. Attached is a snapshot of their contents. The applications which they include can be obtained separately. Just plug their specific names into one of the search engine launchers on Seamonkey’s Home Page or Puppy Package Manager. The included Menu>Utilities>PaDS application can be used if you want to combine any of them or any other application. I can think of only three reasons for downloading and using them.

PaDS has two limitations: (1) It can’t fix a mis-formed application. During the creation of a pet a petspec’s file is automatically created unless one already exists. The petspec file is used by Puppy’s installation application. If you update a pet from, say version 1 to version 2, but fail to delete the petspecs file identifying it as version 1, a pet will be created but the installation application won’t install it. If you try to include that mis-formed application using PaDS, PaDS will create an SFS, but the SFS will not include any functioning applications. Fortunately, this rarely happens. [When it does, the SFS created includes the mis-formed pet as-is –not unpacked as it supposed to be-- thus identifying the problem and enabling you to fix it if you know how to create or modify pets].

Slightly more often an included application will work but either it will not appear on the menu, will appear in the wrong category, or will appear without an icon. This happens because the application may have been ported from a Linux distro which ‘doesn’t do things the Puppy-Way’. AppFinder, which also doesn’t do things the Puppy-way, will display such application. [And once you how your way around, you can correct any problems of display under Puppy’s own Menu].

One reason to use either the adrv or ydrv I built is that any of the above problems have been corrected. The second reason is that it will save you the time of having to track down the individual applications. To understand the third reason "production of use", you'll have to watch the Cary Grant-Rosalind Russel movie, His Girl Friday.

However, a better way of making use of them after you download them is to Right-Click them and change their names so that they are seen as just “Extra” SFSes, perhaps “Stuff.sfs” and “MoreStuff.sfs”. Or place them both, as-is, in a folder named Stuff Right-Click the folder, Select “Combine-to-SFS” from the popup menu, and PaDS will create one sfs named “Stuff.sfs”. Or choose your own names for those operations.

Unlike an “Extra.sfs” adrv.sfs, ydrv.sfs and any of the other “alphabet SFSes” have a significant draw-back. An “Extra.sfs” can be loaded and unloaded at any time without requiring a reboot. An “alphabet.sfs” will only be used if it is found on bootup; and if used cannot be unloaded without rebooting after having removed the “alphabet.sfs” from where it will be found. An “alphabet.sfs” will use RAM even if you do not use its applications; an Extra.sfs can be unloaded freeing up RAM for applications you do use.

Although it will vary from computer to computer, and depend on what applications are included –how many pointers must be created-- my exploration of the use of the adrv I created revealed one Rule and one “Rule of thumb”. The Rule is that the more powerful the CPU(s) your computer has, the less RAM is required to perform the same task. On my most powerful computer, a quad-core i3 operating at 3.3 GHz, booting to desktop used only 83 Mbs RAM (excluding buffers and cache) if the adrv wasn’t used. On my Thinkpad T42, which uses an M-1 CPU, booting to desktop without the adrv required 91 Mbs of RAM. You’ll notice from the screenshot that there were 10 applications which PaDS combined into one SFS. With it in use, booting to desktop used 94 Mbs of RAM: 11 Mbs more. I sorry. I didn’t record the effect of the adrv on the Thinkpad. But I recall it to have required about 15 Mbs more RAM than without its use. So the “Rule of Thumb” I would suggest is that for every application you place in an adrv between 1 and 2 Mbs more RAM will be required to boot to desktop:

(a) Not particularly significant even on a low-resource computer;
(b) Insignificant on a computer system having over 1 Gb or RAM;
(c) And the amount of work needed to remove applications from the “base.sfs” and place them in an adrv isn’t worth the effort.

My disparagement of adrv should not be taken as a criticism of Jemimah. At the time she implemented it, it solved a problem Puppies still had. They could use no more than 6 ‘Extra.sfses”. Thanks to the later work by JRB and ITSMERSH, that limitation on longer exists.

Still, if you desire to remove an application (and place it in an adrv or extra.sfs or just store it) CE_Slacko_5.7.2 provides the tools to do so. Menu>Utility>gnewpet will create a pet of any application on your system. Menu>Setup>Remove Builtins appears accomplish what its name suggests. But it really doesn’t. It only ‘white’s out’ the pointers to the “removed” application remaining in Storage. To actually remove it requires a remaster.

Remastering will be discussed next.
adrv_and_ydrv.png
 Description   Screenshot pets in folders which PaDS combined, creating adrv and ydrv
 Filesize   214.18 KB
 Viewed   2619 Time(s)

adrv_and_ydrv.png


Last edited by mikeslr on Thu 21 Feb 2019, 07:04; edited 5 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3547
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2019, 17:13    Post subject: reserved  

reserved
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1538
Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2019, 18:14    Post subject:  

Can I take it it's got all needed for dev work already in it or do i need to add a devx from somewhere?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
ITSMERSH

Joined: 02 May 2018
Posts: 911

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2019, 19:21    Post subject:  

Quote:
And it’s Thunar Filemanager presented newbies less of a learning curve that rox.

I never understood the issues people have had when using Rox filer.

When I was a Windows user I never used the Windows Explorer. Instead I used a Windows File Manager which was called (in German) "Arbeitsplatz". This was just a single Window showing all the drives plus those folders like (in German) "Eigene Dateien" etc.pp.

This "Explorer" was very similar to the Rox filer, so I liked Rox filer from the beginning. Ok, the copy & paste was different and the early versions needed to hit a lot of enter/return when copying/overwriting existing files (in Lucid and Precise).

Now, with the new modified Rox filer (woodenshoe-wi) I'm all around happy with the Rox filer.

Just to mention...

_________________
RSH

Beware of the Dog ähem nic007! Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3547
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Tue 12 Feb 2019, 20:48    Post subject:  

Hi scsijon,

I don't compile, a corollary of which is I don't compile Kernels. So, normally being able to compile is not high on my radar. And as noted above, the target audience are Windows emigres using a computer with limited resources. That said, in selecting one of rockedge's kernels --IF I recall correctly, the full_rt*, I noted that its folder also provided kernel_sources-4.14.63-upupbb.sfs ------------ 139366400 bytes. I assumed devx and headers are in that. It can be found from the link in the above post.

Hi ITMERSH,

I also quickly despaired of Explorer. But I found xplorer2, https://www.zabkat.com/ whose dual-pane file-manager was easy to work with. xfe is very similar to that. And those familiar with Midnight Commander or its clones also won't have much adjustment to do. And I too am now very happy with Rox. It hasn't been replaced, just supplemented to ease the transition.

* I'm certain it was not the kernel designated "nopae" --see the discussion above about Forcepae-- and am pretty certain that it wasn't the one designated "low_latency". But I started testing over a month ago. My memory being what it is, I can't be absolutely certain, and I don't know of a test to distinguish 'low_latency' from "full_rt".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
6502coder


Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 653
Location: Western United States

PostPosted: Sun 17 Feb 2019, 19:09    Post subject: Problems installing to flash drive  

Hi Mike,

I gave your creation a LiveCD test on my Celeron M laptop, same vintage as your T42, 1.3GHz with 1 GB RAM. It booted up fine and a quick sampling of the desktop icons turned up no issues. However...

I was curious about the speed vs SailorE's Slacko571, which I run off a flash drive, so to get a fairer idea of the performance, I tried to install to a freshly formatted 8 GB flash drive using the standard Puppy Installer. All went as usual up to the point where the installer starts copying stuff onto the flash drive, then I got an error message saying that "/initrd//puppy_ceslacko_5.7.2.sfs" did not exist. That double "/" certainly looked out of order. Using "find" I located the SFS down in /initrd/mtn/tmpfs and made a symlink to this, then re-ran the installer. It then happily found the main SFS but still complained about not finding "initrd.gz" and "vmlinuz"--and neither could I. So, end of that experiment.

For a lark, I took your "512Mb or less" literally and also threw the LiveCD at my Pentium II laptop with 192 MB RAM. Much to my amazement it booted all the way to the desktop. Focuswriter also worked, although it did take a good while to come up. I was able to get wireless going, although this was a hollow victory inasamuch as SeaMonkey of course wasn't having anything do to with trying to run in 192 MB. I wish Dillo was bundled as that would certainly have worked.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3547
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2019, 13:01    Post subject:  

Hi 6502coder,

I've never used Puppy Installer. So it never crossed my mind that I should test whether it worked. Embarassed And had I discovered it didn't, along with error you found, and the error generated by the work-around you tried, I wouldn't have known how to solve it. Sad . For those who don't know it, recipe for installing Puppy given below.

When I was thinking about what light-weight web-browser to install, I took cracks at building both lynx and midori. Neither were successful and after considering the declining number of computers which might benefit from something less demanding than Slacko 2.35, decided to move on.

Your post having brought Dillo to my attention, I recalled it being discussed often several years ago. So I booted into Slacko 5.72CE and was surprised that Puppy Package Manager didn't offer a version. Googling easily found a version for Wheezy built by OscarTalks which I decided to fetch & test. The webpage on smokey's repo where it was located also had dillo for Slacko 14.0, [author unknown to me --maybe Don570]. http://smokey01.com/OscarTalks/. 770K. I'm posting from it now.

Obviously, anyone actually needing Dillo should download it using the Operating System used to download the ISO.

I had guessed that Seamonkey 2.35 would run from a computer only supporting sse but don't have a computer for testing. Do you know if your Pentium II laptop was so limited? And whether the problem with Seamonkey was only it's limited RAM?

I could do a remaster to include Dillo, but frankly am reluctant to put in the time if that was the only objective*. If anyone can figure out a solution to Puppy Installer's screw-up, or any other failing having a greater reach and less easy work-around than the absence of Dillo in the build, I'll do so.

-=--=-=-=-=-

Recipe for a Frugal Install of ANY Puppy to a Hard-Drive from a Running Puppy:

1. Download the ISO. Left-Click it to mount it. Leave the Window open.
2. File-browse to the drive/partition where you want to locate the new Puppy's files. Right-Click an empty space, select New>Directory. Give the new Directory a name not used by other Frugally Installed Puppies.
3. For each of the following files in the 'ISO'-Window, Left-PRESS, Hold, then drag it into the new Puppy folder and select Copy: initrd(.gz), vmlinuz, puppy_version-name_&number.sfs, and other "sfses" found in the 'ISO'-window. zdrv.sfs contain drivers and sometimes firmware. fdrv.sfs contain firmware if packaged separately. Assume the foregoing are needed. If an adrv.sfs is present it contains additional applications. You don't need it if you are RAM challenged. Other "SFSes" do not have a generally defined use. If you are RAM-Challenged, I'd try booting without them.
4. Run Menu>System>Grub4dos to install a bootloader and a new Menu.lst; or just edit your current Menu.lst.

* I'm working on a couple of projects having, I believe, greater utility.

Last edited by mikeslr on Mon 18 Feb 2019, 20:08; edited 3 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 5661
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2019, 13:11    Post subject:  

Mike:-

Neat idea, neat idea. One question (if I may?)

Can you drop a bog-standard 5.7.0 'save-file' into it.....and will it boot straight up? If the answer's yes, I may trial this on ye olde Dell lappie; 1.5 GB with a P4 sounds like a good candidate for it (although the 64GB SSD does help).....


One of the other Mikes..... Very Happy

_________________
MY 'PUPPY' PACKAGES

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
6502coder


Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 653
Location: Western United States

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2019, 14:24    Post subject:  

Hi Mike,

I was just being lazy in not attempting a manual frugal install as you described. In fact I routinely use that procedure to update my UPupBionic and SailorE's Slacko. (Although now I see there's a kerfuffle over WoofCE getting snarky about people trying to carry savefiles/folders over from one version to the next...)

I was also just being lazy about Dillo. I've got it running on most of my Puppys as a backup browser and as the reader for my large collection of "man" pages in HTML. I could easily have gotten it installed.

Re SeaMonkey, my Pentium 2 doesn't have SSE, much less SSE2, so I didn't expect SM to run at all. But running SM from a terminal didn't produce any error messages; it just sat there grinding away at my 1 GB swap partition. After ten minutes with nothing happening aside from a very busy disk drive, I gave up and killed it. Bottom line: given the lack of error messages and the failure to simply crash outright, I have no evidence that anything other than a simple lack of RAM was keeping SM from coming up.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Mike Walsh


Joined: 28 Jun 2014
Posts: 5661
Location: King's Lynn, UK.

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2019, 16:14    Post subject:  

@ Mike:-

Mike Walsh wrote:
Can you drop a bog-standard 5.7.0 'save-file' into it.....and will it boot straight up?


Well, I think I've answered my own question.

With Sailor's 571, yes, I could drop 5.7.0's save-file straight in. It found it, used it, booted-up, and.....all was well with the world.

Trying the same approach with your CE-Slacko 5.7.2, for some reason it doesn't even find it, much less see it or (heaven forbid) condescend to use it. It's like the save-file doesn't exist. This isn't anything to do with the new Github issue where newer kernels won't allow the use of older save-files, is it....?

Under normal circumstances, I'd just shrug my shoulders and get on with setting-up a new Puppy. But there's deeper issues at play here.

Try as I might, I could not get any sound to play in anything. 5.7.2 'sees' my sound card, yes.....but if it's using it, it's not sending any output through it. And nothing I can do seems to be able to change that.

(*grrrr...*)

The webcam isn't recognised.

My FF-Quantum 60.5.1esr 'portable' works in 5.7.2 - well, it runs, shall we say - but it's very slow, and takes forever to do things. Net Flix will play (sort of), but it's very slow & juddery. The gdk/gtk-3.0 stuff has been built-in to the portable, along with the pulse audio stuff, so I don't think it's that...

PupShutDown. Mm. Interesting choice. This is in no way a criticism, more an observation.....but I, personally, could never find a way to change the button functions. You certainly can't add 'suspend' for a desktop, 'cos Radky's built the suspend function to only work for laptops.

The standard Puppy Log-out GUI, on the other hand, I found very easy to modify. (*shrug*) And I'm perhaps odd, here, but I like the way it looks!

-----------------------------------------

I think it boils down to one thing, Mike. I've been using Puppy for almost 5 years now. I've got past the stage of trying everything new in sight; I haven't added a new Pup since Sailor's 571, several months ago. I'm all but past the point where Puppy itself is the sum total of my attention; I'm running a baker's dozen of 'em, and have them all just how I want them.

I want to start simply using my Puppies, and enjoying them.....instead of constantly 'titivating', and p***ing around with them all the time.

Does that sound like I'm 'letting the side down'?? Laughing Laughing Embarassed

Ah hell, I must be getting old..!!! Rolling Eyes


Mike. Wink

_________________
MY 'PUPPY' PACKAGES

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3547
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2019, 18:18    Post subject: Can a slackosave file be used?  

Hi Mike,

you asked if a slackosave file could be used with Slacko 5.7.2CE.

Not out of the box. Probably not. And not recommended. Alternatives suggested.

During one of the several remasters between the original and the published I used shinobar's remasterx to change the base name so that it would not conflict with further use of Slacko 5.7x. The Savefile it creates and recognizes is ceslackosave. But I think there's a bigger problem which wouldn't be solved by merely editing a slackosave to ceslackosave.

This is a remaster of Sailor Enceladus's 5.7.1, a new woof-build. I've noted elsewhere that vmlinuz sports a different icon than 01micko's vmlinuz woof-built five years ago. In attempting to swap kernels on 01micko's version, and two Puppies of similar age, Saluki and precise, the resulting OSes after the swap refused to boot to desktop. From the error messages, the impression I had was that there had also been, along with the change to vmlinuz, changes to initrd and puppy_xxx.sfs. So I think those changes would also affect what initrd expects to find in a SaveFile, or where it expects to find files.

Even if that were not the case, using a 5.7 slackosave as such would not be recommended. One of the things Slacko5.7.2CE does is update user applications and 'infrastructure'. The files in a SaveFile would have priority over the builtins so isn't recommended. I'm uncertain about what priority an adrv has. Perhaps naming a slackosave adrv_ceslacko_5.7.2.sfs would be sufficient to overcome any conflicts between the necessary files of the ISO and the slackosave.

But, as "application" SFSes have lower priority than the necessary files of an ISO, even (I think) an adrv, perhaps the easiest solution would be to rename slackosave_xxx.sfs for example to "oldstuff.sfs". Then use SFS-load-on-the-fly to load it. [Alternative Bootmanager can be started via Setup>PupControl click the System Tab].

Slacko 5.7.2CE can use OOTB any Slacko application sfs or pet. My recommendation is to use its builtin PaDS to accumulate pets you want to carry forward, place them in a folder named adrv_ceslacko_5.7.2 or oldstuff or any name you choose, Right-Click it and PaDS will produce an sfs with that name. If you have problems finding the link to any application you use under Slacko 5.7, install gnewpet, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=598673#598673 into Slacko 5.7. It will create a pet of any builtin or user-installed application. PPM>Uninstall will tell you which you installed. Remove builtins and /root/.packages/builtin folder will tell you the applications Slacko 5.7 came with.

One of the spaces I've reserved above was for the purpose of discussing the tools built-into Slacko 5.7.2CE, and how they can be used to reduce the dependency on SaveFiles, even their entire elimination.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 3547
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Mon 18 Feb 2019, 20:50    Post subject:  

@ Mike,

Somehow your second post got posted before my reply to your first without my noticing it. So if your SaveFile from Slacko 5.7 worked with Sailor's 5.7.1, it will probably work with Slacko 5.7.2CE. Just change its name to ceslackosave.

Sound and web-cam issues: Did you have them with Sailor's 5.7.1? I don't think rockedge's zdrv (change of kernel occurred before the 1st remaster) failed to include the drivers nor that flaws during subsequent remasters --'localize' was never selected-- is the cause. I have sound on three computers, 6502coder didn't mention a sound problem on a 4th, and 5.7.2 sees your sound card. So while I would like to know your computer's specs, I really have no good idea why there's a problem.

I take it that firefox's slowness is something which also wasn't present under Sailor's original build. Combined with the sound and web-cam issues, I have to wonder if the Realtime-full kernel package (vmlinuz & zdrv) I chose is playing well with your computer. Perhaps some other, http://rockedge.org/kernels/ would do better.

Then, again, seems like you'd have to do a lot of work to get 5.7.2CE to do as well as 5.7. Middle-ground: maybe try 'reverting' to Sailor's Kernel which actually worked well. In changing kernels I was trying to get the last dregs out of really resource limited computers by today's standards.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
nic007


Joined: 13 Nov 2011
Posts: 3200
Location: Cradle of Humankind

PostPosted: Tue 19 Feb 2019, 01:51    Post subject: Re: Can a slackosave file be used?  

mikeslr wrote:
Hi Mike,

you asked if a slackosave file could be used with Slacko 5.7.2CE.

Not out of the box. Probably not. And not recommended. Alternatives suggested.

During one of the several remasters between the original and the published I used shinobar's remasterx to change the base name so that it would not conflict with further use of Slacko 5.7x. The Savefile it creates and recognizes is ceslackosave. But I think there's a bigger problem which wouldn't be solved by merely editing a slackosave to ceslackosave.

This is a remaster of Sailor Enceladus's 5.7.1, a new woof-build. I've noted elsewhere that vmlinuz sports a different icon than 01micko's vmlinuz woof-built five years ago. In attempting to swap kernels on 01micko's version, and two Puppies of similar age, Saluki and precise, the resulting OSes after the swap refused to boot to desktop. From the error messages, the impression I had was that there had also been, along with the change to vmlinuz, changes to initrd and puppy_xxx.sfs. So I think those changes would also affect what initrd expects to find in a SaveFile, or where it expects to find files.

Even if that were not the case, using a 5.7 slackosave as such would not be recommended. One of the things Slacko5.7.2CE does is update user applications and 'infrastructure'. The files in a SaveFile would have priority over the builtins so isn't recommended. I'm uncertain about what priority an adrv has. Perhaps naming a slackosave adrv_ceslacko_5.7.2.sfs would be sufficient to overcome any conflicts between the necessary files of the ISO and the slackosave.

But, as "application" SFSes have lower priority than the necessary files of an ISO, even (I think) an adrv, perhaps the easiest solution would be to rename slackosave_xxx.sfs for example to "oldstuff.sfs". Then use SFS-load-on-the-fly to load it. [Alternative Bootmanager can be started via Setup>PupControl click the System Tab].

Slacko 5.7.2CE can use OOTB any Slacko application sfs or pet. My recommendation is to use its builtin PaDS to accumulate pets you want to carry forward, place them in a folder named adrv_ceslacko_5.7.2 or oldstuff or any name you choose, Right-Click it and PaDS will produce an sfs with that name. If you have problems finding the link to any application you use under Slacko 5.7, install gnewpet, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=598673#598673 into Slacko 5.7. It will create a pet of any builtin or user-installed application. PPM>Uninstall will tell you which you installed. Remove builtins and /root/.packages/builtin folder will tell you the applications Slacko 5.7 came with.

One of the spaces I've reserved above was for the purpose of discussing the tools built-into Slacko 5.7.2CE, and how they can be used to reduce the dependency on SaveFiles, even their entire elimination.

Savefile is at very top layer > then adrv > then ydrv > base sfs > zdrv >extra sfs creations.
Does this distribution support the implementation of the adrv and ydrv?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 10 [136 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, ..., 8, 9, 10 Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.2030s ][ Queries: 13 (0.0343s) ][ GZIP on ]