18.05 - strange user behavior after hd install

[ccaaee]

Hello

One of the first things one notices about puppy is that one is normally always root.
There are a number of other users that have specific purposes and one of them is "webuser" who runs hiawatha having his home directory as /root/Web-Server.
Another is "nobody" who, amongst other things runs mysql when installed
Well these guys work fine when running live from a USB boot but don't after a HD install.
In fact you can't even su to webuser or nobody after a HD install.
I'd always understood that a HD install was the same environment as the live USB one...

Any ideas???
ccaaee

[rockedge]

look in this file : /etc/passwd and /etc/shadow

if this is missing you will need to copy it to this position from the USB stick version. The file /etc/passwd (example) ->

Code: Select all

root:x:0:0:root:/root:/bin/sh
daemon:x:1:1::/:
nobody:x:65534:65534::/tmp:
spot:x:502:502:Linux User,,,:/home/spot:/bin/sh
bin:x:2:2:bin:/bin:
messagebus:x:503:503:Linux User,,,:/tmp:/bin/sh
ftp:x:1000:1000:Linux User,,,:/root/ftpd:/bin/sh
haldaemon:x:108:119:Hardware abstraction layer,,,:/var/run/hald:/bin/false
uucp:x:10:10:uucp:/var/spool/uucp:/bin/sh
sshd:x:33:33:sshd:/:
webuser:x:1002:504:Linux User,,,:/root/Web-Server:/bin/sh
finn:x:1001:500:Linux User,,,:/root:/bin/sh
man:x:65534:65534::/tmp:

also the file /etc/group must be present

Code: Select all

root:x:0:
daemon:x:1:
tty:x:2:
ppp:x:200:
users:x:500:fido
nobody:x:65534:
guest:x:501:
spot:x:502:spot
bin::2:root,bin,daemon
503:x:503:messagebus
ftp:x:1000:
dip:x:30:
uucp::10:
lpadmin::112:root,spot,nobody,guest,fido
netdev::113:
haldaemon::119:
sshd::33:sshd
webgroup:x:504:
disk::100:root,spot,fido
audio::101:root,spot,fido
lp::102:root,daemon,spot,fido
dialout::103:root,spot,fido
kmem::104:root,spot,fido
video::105:root,spot,fido
floppy::106:root,spot,fido
cdrom::107:root,spot,fido
tape::108:root
tty::109:root,spot,fido
plugdev::110:root,spot,fido

although these examples are from a Bionic 32 bit upupbb-18.05

[ccaaee]

Thanks

the files /etc/passwd, /etc/shadow and /etc/group are identical between the live USB boot and the install (sda1 in my case).

When starting hiawatha or su'ing on the live boot - no problem.

on the HD install:

# hiawatha
Warning: error redirecting stdin
Warning: error redirecting stdout

# su - webuser
su: can't change directory to '/root/Web-Server'
su: can't change directory to '/': Permission denied

# ls -l /root/ | grep Web
drwxr-sr-x 3 webuser webgroup 4096 Feb 10 06:15 Web-Server

# su webuser
su: can't execute '/bin/sh': Permission denied

Any ideas?

ccaaee

[bigpup]

What exact Puppy version you using?
Full name and version?

[dancytron]

Is it really a "full install"?

If so, any reason other than the name?

If you did do a full install, I recommend you do a frugal install instead. It is better in every way and there is a 99% chance your problem will go away.

/offtopic to no one in particular

To repeat myself again, the problem is the name "full install". It makes people think that it is somehow better or fuller or whatever. If we called it "legacy install" then people wouldn't use it for no good reason.

[ccaaee]

cat /etc/DISTRO_SPECS

#One or more words that identify this distribution:
DISTRO_NAME='UPupBB'
#version number of this distribution:
DISTRO_VERSION=18.05
#The distro whose binary packages were used to build this distribution:
DISTRO_BINARY_COMPAT='ubuntu'
#Prefix for some filenames: exs: upupbbsave.2fs, puppy_upupbb-18.05.sfs
DISTRO_FILE_PREFIX='upupbb'
#The version of the distro whose binary packages were used to build this distro:
DISTRO_COMPAT_VERSION='bionic'
#read by /usr/bin/xwin to bypass Xorg Wizard at first boot:
DISTRO_XORG_AUTO='yes'
DISTRO_KERNEL_PET='Huge_Kernel'
DISTRO_DB_SUBNAME='upupbb'
DISTRO_ARCHDIR='i386-linux-gnu'
DISTRO_TARGETARCH='x86'
BUILD_FROM_WOOF='master;ec80b41b;2018-06-23 11:36:40 +0800'
#Puppy default filenames...
#Note, the 'SFS' files below are what the 'init' script in initrd.gz searches for,
#for the partition, path and actual files loaded, see PUPSFS and ZDRV in /etc/rc.d/PUPSTATE
DISTRO_PUPPYSFS='puppy_upupbb_18.05.sfs'
DISTRO_ZDRVSFS='zdrv_upupbb_18.05.sfs'
DISTRO_FDRVSFS='fdrv_upupbb_18.05.sfs'
DISTRO_ADRVSFS='adrv_upupbb_18.05.sfs'
DISTRO_YDRVSFS='ydrv_upupbb_18.05.sfs'
DISTRO_PUPPYDATE='Feb 2019'
#multiarch distros, such as Ubuntu, will have this. ex: /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu, so DISTRO_ARCHDIR=i386-linux-gnu
DISTRO_ARCHDIR='i386-linux-gnu'

[ccaaee]

Yes, this is really a full install.

The reason I did a full install was because I've always, in the past 8 years, over several versions, done it that way and never had any problems. My understanding of frugal is that it is for windows users that don't want to partition their hard drive. I don't use windows. Nevertheless, this is the first time I've run into problems like this in all the time I've been using puppy linux.

[6502coder]

My understanding of frugal is that it is for windows users that don't want to partition their hard drive. I don't use windows.

To put it simply, but I hope not too bluntly, your understanding is wrong.

Frugal installs have these major advantages, which have NOTHING to do with whether or not you have Windows:

1) They make it easier to recover from a totally botched system. You just reinstall from the original ISO, add a copy of your backup of your savefolder/savefile, and you're back in business. Whereas a full install requires you to backup everything.

2) It gives you the possibility of booting into a pristine version of the OS (ie minus your savefile/savefolder stuff) at any time. Useful for security purposes or to do maintenance or detective work.

3) It allows you to have multiple versions of Puppy in the same partition. You choose which one you want from the boot menu. No need to give each Puppy its own partition.

4) Using PETs to install stuff -- which only works with frugal installs -- makes UNinstalling said stuff much easier.

FULL installs have one merit and one merit only: if you have severely limited RAM -- less than 512 MB -- a full install will be faster than a frugal.

As for the root user issue, Puppy always has been designed to run as root. It has never been truly multi-user. If you want/need to do things that require proper multi-user support, you should be thinking about another OS.

[bigpup]

4) Using PETs to install stuff -- which only works with frugal installs -- makes UNinstalling said stuff much easier.

Wrong.
Pet packages will install to any type of Puppy install.

Frugal install feature.
Can load and unload sfs program packages, to use a program without actually installing the program, into Puppy.

[bigpup]

I assume you have looked in the UppupBB 18.05 topic to see if there is any issues posted about full installs.

If this is a fresh new install of UppupBB 18.05.

I have had installs just not install correctly. Just happens, sometimes.

Do this using Gparted that comes in Puppy.
I would try reformatting the partition you are installing on.
Suggest you use exit 3 or 4 for format.
This should make sure the file system is clean and error free.

Try doing a fresh clean full install again.

I know that Puppy development is not spending a lot of time to make sure full installs of Puppy still work OK.
All the code changes are making sure frugal installs work correctly.
Maybe something got broken with full installs.

You really need to try using a Puppy as a frugal install.
If you install to a Linux formatted partition (exit 3 or 4).
You can make the save a save folder.
Save folders can auto adjust to use whatever free space is needed for new saved data.

A frugal install should run a little faster.
It loads more of Puppy into RAM than a full install does.

[ccaaee]

Yes, I guess I overlooked frugal installs.
I can su to the aforementioned users with the frugal install. The curious in me still wants to know what gives with the full install but seeing as how frugal works I'll use it.
I'm still having issues with Hiawatha and mysql but I should be able to debug them now.
Thanks to all for the info
C

[rockedge]

the problem is the name "full install". It makes people think that it is somehow better or fuller or whatever. If we called it "legacy install" then people wouldn't use it for no good reason.

Totally agree...good idea.

I'm still having issues with Hiawatha and mysql but I should be able to debug them now.

what kind of problems???...I am setting up at the moment a Hiawatha 10.8.3 web server, mariaDB for mysql and PHP7.2 for a LHMP - ZoneMinder with zmnotification server and object detection installation. I might be able to give some tips to get your set up running

[6502coder]

4) Using PETs to install stuff -- which only works with frugal installs -- makes UNinstalling said stuff much easier.

Wrong.
Pet packages will install to any type of Puppy install.

Thanks, bigpup! Nice to have a lead dog around to keep the rest of the team on the right track.

[mikeslr]

I'm sure 6502coder was thinking of SFSes which are additional file-systems (the FS part of the name) that can be loaded and unloaded without installing under Frugal Installs. SFS have at least two advantages over pets. (1) You can test to find out whether on your system it works better than the older version: Unload the old, load the new. If not, unload the new and delete it. (2) If you're short on RAM or if an SFS conflicts with some other application, you can unload it until you need it again.

SFSes can be used with Full installs: Left-Click and select install. But doing so will over-write (obliterating), or worse, only partially over-write the old version creating a mess.

The Woof-Team should change the wording in the Puppy Installer, substituting "Legacy" for "Full". But that will still leave thousands of ISOs floating around misleading people.

[ccaaee]

what kind of problems???..

I was trying to use LHMP-8.0-5.3.4-5.3.10.pet which would not start mysql/mariaDB as user "nobody" and, concerning hiawath, kept showing 503 errors when trying to access php...

After hours of tweaking and hacking and installing other packages for other things I went back to LHMP-7.3-5.1.47-5.3.3.pet which I had been using in previous puppies and everything worked "out of the box". When I get more time I'll compare the two packages out of curiosity. Right now it's working fine in 18.05 and I'm happy with it.

Thanks

[Burn_IT]

They could put a big flashing warning and the explanation in the install scripts.

[6502coder]

I'm sure 6502coder was thinking of SFSes...

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt, Mike, but no...what I was trying to claim was that one can't blithely install and uninstall PETs on a full install. I thought I had read somewhere that, if you uninstalled a PET that, say, updated a system library, the original library would not be reinstalled--that it simply got overwritten when the PET was installed, and was gone.

[mikeslr]

Hi 6502coder,

That's my understanding as well. Under Frugals, the actual operating system exists in RAM, with pointers in RAM to where in Storage the file (and associated files) are located. On a pristine boot, those pointers are to the files which were contained in the ISO and were written to the Storage Medium. When a User installs a pet (deb or other package) it is written to the SaveFile/Folder. SaveFiles/Folders have priority and will overwrite any pointers to the files of a pristine Frugal. Conflicting files remain, but aren't put to use. When you uninstall such pet, you also uninstall the pointers to it, leaving the original pointers to the files in Storage. [Only a Remaster would delete those files]. So, with a Frugal Install, uninstalling a pet returns your system to its condition before such pet's installation.

Under a Full install, however, there is no SaveFile/Folder, no division between RAM and Storage. Installation of a pet overwrites any conflicting files in Storage. Uninstalling that pet removes all its files breaking any application which depended on them.

Puppy was and remains an operating system designed to run as a Frugal install. I concur with your post in the Suggestions Section. The hack --my characterization-- named 'Full Install' developed to enable it to boot and run slightly quicker when computers were sold with 256 Mbs of RAM or less and were unlikely to have more than 512 Mbs of RAM has outlived its excuse for being.

[dancytron]

Hi 6502coder,

That's my understanding as well. Under Frugals, the actual operating system exists in RAM, with pointers in RAM to where in Storage the file (and associated files) are located. On a pristine boot, those pointers are to the files which were contained in the ISO and were written to the Storage Medium. When a User installs a pet (deb or other package) it is written to the SaveFile/Folder. SaveFiles/Folders have priority and will overwrite any pointers to the files of a pristine Frugal. Conflicting files remain, but aren't put to use. When you uninstall such pet, you also uninstall the pointers to it, leaving the original pointers to the files in Storage. [Only a Remaster would delete those files]. So, with a Frugal Install, uninstalling a pet returns your system to its condition before such pet's installation.

Under a Full install, however, there is no SaveFile/Folder, no division between RAM and Storage. Installation of a pet overwrites any conflicting files in Storage. Uninstalling that pet removes all its files breaking any application which depended on them.

Puppy was and remains an operating system designed to run as a Frugal install. I concur with your post in the Suggestions Section. The hack --my characterization-- named 'Full Install' developed to enable it to boot and run slightly quicker when computers were sold with 256 Mbs of RAM or less and were unlikely to have more than 512 Mbs of RAM has outlived its excuse for being.

I agree that it has outlived its usefulness for almost all new users.

That's why I suggest renaming it to "legacy install". That way it would still be available to those who have actually thought about it, but the name "legacy" would be both accurate and scare away all the newbies that don't want to read the instructions.

[mikeslr]

Either solution would be preferable to the current situation. But either would require those working on Woof to pay attention to what those of us who have to deal with the aftermath that their work generate.

And neither would solve the problem of (tens of) thousands of previously published ISOs floating around and the undated, inaccurate and/or antiquated advice by Linux reviewers who don't actually know Puppy Linux.