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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
Building custom pups for my use
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kimble

Joined: 25 Jan 2019
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon 28 Jan 2019, 20:45    Post subject:  

Quote:
What am I trying to achieve?


Well, I am trying to run an OS on under-powered ARM equipment, so I want a very lightweight OS. By "OS" I mean the part that is not the apps, the part you don't see on the screen, but can find out about with "top" and things like that. OS + apps = distro. I want the apps that I work with every day to be efficient too, but it is more important that they be functional. Hence Dolphin for file manager, Thunderbird for email, Firefox for browsing, Libreoffice-calc for spreadsheets, Rhythmbox for music, etc. But I want to have the choice about which apps I have.

6502coder suggests an answer: Apache, Apt, Aptitude, ClamAV, Cheese, fonts, gcc, Python2/3, Perl, Gnome, Imgemagick, Libreoffice, Thunderbird, Vim. These are all apps except Gnome and apt. Python is a bit in-between because some of the OS contains bits that are written in PyGTK so you need Python for the OS.

So I come back to why is Ubuntu/Lubuntu so big and Puppy so small? - Single user, squashfs, JWM v Compiz/Openbox, Xfce v Gnome/LXDE, pet v apt. Does that explain Lubuntu-18.10-desktop-amd64.iso [1.6 GB] v LxPupBionic-18.05+23.iso [285 MB]. Even ubuntu-18.04-server-amd64.iso (without xorg and any desktop or apps) is 812 MB v Deblive-Stretch-i386-71.iso is 193 MB.

I don't think the big difference has been explained yet.
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ITSMERSH

Joined: 02 May 2018
Posts: 911

PostPosted: Mon 28 Jan 2019, 21:36    Post subject:  

Oh yes, one of the big differences is -of course- JWM instead of any other window manager. You can proof this on a default Puppy with JWM and a similar (equally based) version with e.g. XFCE.

They differ in its sizes as well. Not too much, but they do.

Usually -and this is the clue- they (the XFCE versions) are missing a lot of libs, that are included into the original JWM Puppy to keep the Puppy small.

At least that's my experience from the past when trying some of the XFCE and LXDE Puppies. As far as I can recall there were lots of missing libs when using .sfs modules that I created for the similar JWM version - so its program won't start without to install some more dependencies.

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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 1373

PostPosted: Mon 28 Jan 2019, 21:49    Post subject:  

ITSMERSH wrote:
Oh yes, one of the big differences is -of course- JWM instead of any other window manager. You can proof this on a default Puppy with JWM and a similar (equally based) version with e.g. XFCE.

They differ in its sizes as well. Not too much, but they do.

Usually -and this is the clue- they (the XFCE versions) are missing a lot of libs, that are included into the original JWM Puppy to keep the Puppy small.

At least that's my experience from the past when trying some of the XFCE and LXDE Puppies. As far as I can recall there were lots of missing libs when using .sfs modules that I created for the similar JWM version - so its program won't start without to install some more dependencies.


This is absolutely the approach of Debian Dog etc. Debian dog leaves out the Mesa.dri lib and other 3d graphics stuff, cups, samba, gnumeric/abiword (most flavors), and I am sure some stuff I am leaving out that is included in puppy to be puppy sized and still include the necessary Debian base.
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 1373

PostPosted: Mon 28 Jan 2019, 21:53    Post subject:  

kimble wrote:
Quote:
What am I trying to achieve?


Well, I am trying to run an OS on under-powered ARM equipment, so

{{stuff snipped}}

I don't think the big difference has been explained yet.


Then at least here, your choices are pretty limited. The distros on this board that support ARM are either a few Puppy versions made for the first Raspberry Pi or the Fatdog Arm. http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/arm-index.html
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mistfire

Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 1220
Location: PH

PostPosted: Mon 28 Jan 2019, 23:46    Post subject:  

You can also try the build kit of TazPuppy if you want a custom puppy. It is more easy to use

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=113255
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 3070

PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2019, 13:11    Post subject:  

kimble wrote:
I am trying to run an OS on under-powered ARM equipment

When it comes to arm there is no “one size fits all” solution
First of all you need kernel that will boot your hardware and then an OS that is compiled at the highest version your hardware supports (see here for more). Hopefully you have ARMv6-X or v7-X. v8 machines are pretty modern and powerful and v5 or less you do not want to mess with.
Finally you need support for you GPU, specially if is not a popular one. Also touch if relevant, though F(L)OSS OSs are not very good with the touch interface.

Assuming that you have optimised kernel and graphics driver most programs will run adequately even in an older machine (ARMv7@1GHz). Of course if you have an ARMv7 do not expect chrome v70 to run (I thing v37 is the last one). Same is true for other modern browsers.
Anyway, in the puppy (like) world the aforementioned Fatdog-ARM supports some hardware, while BK has developed some quirky builds for Raspberry Pi2 and Pi3
If you want to go from scratch, and have any distro that boots your machines you maybe able to use their kernel, assuming is supports AUFS needed for puppies.

Bottom line, you might have better info/help/direction if you specifically say what you have in mind. Wink

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6502coder


Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 646
Location: Western United States

PostPosted: Tue 29 Jan 2019, 17:50    Post subject:  

kimble wrote:
6502coder suggests an answer: Apache, Apt, Aptitude, ClamAV, Cheese, fonts, gcc, Python2/3, Perl, Gnome, Imgemagick, Libreoffice, Thunderbird, Vim. These are all apps except Gnome and apt.

It's not just the apps per se, but their dependencies too. That's why trying to install an Ubuntu DEB on a UPup so often results in "dependency hell," where you end up having chase down a bunch of libs that a stock Ubuntu would have had as standard equipment. All those libs add up.
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kimble

Joined: 25 Jan 2019
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed 30 Jan 2019, 03:23    Post subject:  

I've just been trying slitaz, which has a 50 MB download and boots to a state where lxtask reports 88 MB being used and only 12 processes: lxde-things (openbox, pcmanfm, lxpanel, lxsession, menu-cached), gvfs-stuff and dbus. It uses a local browser to issue management actions and monitoring and reports.

I saved my changed to SSD, but didn't manage to get revised GRUB sorted out, but that was the only failing.
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kimble

Joined: 25 Jan 2019
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri 01 Feb 2019, 23:45    Post subject:  

Just to explain, Slitaz-5.0 is a "live" OS, running in RAM, and it doesn't have persistence (despite what it says in some articles). But it does seem to have a way to generate a new iso from the filestore, which you can then burn to CD or USB-stick, although its very slow and lengthy, so only acceptable if your set up doesn't change very often. The weakness of the whole thing is its use of grub4dos, whose "manual" is 4,000 lines long and full of ancient history about changes made to booting standards.

In the end I just had to give up since nothing worked, with my Ubuntu system stranded and unbootable.

There is currently only 1 guy working on version-6.0 (in Poland) and it has been "80% there" for months. The forum isn't sending out passwords to complete registering, and the last post was a few months ago. This is a great pity as a lot of work has obviously gone into it.
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