I finally got a new(er) PC, which Puppy is the best for me?

[tallboy]

Thank you very much, perdido. I have just found an even never nvidia driver for the 4.9.96 kernel in Bionic Beaver, an .sfs uploaded only a few days ago by shinobar:
http://shinobar.server-on.net/puppy/opt/pup5/bionic/

http://shinobar.server-on.net/puppy/opt ... 32-pae.sfs

It says lxpup, does that mean it is compiled with specific kernel instructions, and useless for me?

[perdido]

Thank you very much, perdido. I have just found an even never nvidia driver for the 4.9.96 kernel in Bionic Beaver, an .sfs uploaded only a few days ago by shinobar:
http://shinobar.server-on.net/puppy/opt/pup5/bionic/

http://shinobar.server-on.net/puppy/opt ... 32-pae.sfs

It says lxpup, does that mean it is compiled with specific kernel instructions, and useless for me?

The driver from shinobar should be fine.
I missed that one, thanks for the update.

.

[tallboy]

There were others too in the same repo, I saw a new nvidia for Tahrpup as well.

[musher0]

(...)
musher0's Xenial will not save to a multisession CD/DVD at all.
(...)

Hi tallboy.

Thanks for this report. I'll double-check.

BFN.

[s243a]

I have used the CD with BionicBeaver on my new PC, which is one of the few Puppys newer than Lucid that can save to a multisession CD-R at shutdown. Thank you for that info, James C. Funny enough, using the save button on the desktop, only produces a dialog window that asks for a DVD, it will not save to a CD.
And then there is the nvidia problem. A different kernel may be a solution.
musher0's Xenial will not save to a multisession CD/DVD at all.

I'll continue to use ext2 on flash media, I use them only for backup. (2 identical - I have learnt the hard way)

I will test other Puppys to find the optimal one for my use, and report back to you.

You must keep your puppies quite small if a multi-session cd is sufficient storage for you!

[s243a]

I'm using Tahrpup 6.

Ext3 is a journalling filesystem which in my view rules it out from use on flash based media.

I use Ext4 (not Ext2/3) on extra partitions (and also works well on flash drives if created by mkfs.ext4 with the journalling disabled (^has_journal).

I have to use Ext2 on my bootable Tahrpup partition because GNU grub version 0.97 will not boot from an Ext4 partition. Other than that, I see no disadvantage using Ext4 instead of Ext3/2.

https://lwn.net/Articles/283161/
Do you have any good sources that evaluate if this is a major concern or not? Here is something I found:

Typical flash-memory today is rated for 1M writes. There are internal wear-leveling that
ensures that this is that number of writes to the ENTIRE module. (i.e. it is impossible to
wear out flash faster by writing repeatedly to the same location)

So, even a SMALL 1GB flash-memory requires the writing of a minimum of 1000TB worth of data
before it'll start failing. (or another order of magnitude if it's a 1M flash-module)

ext

Also I believe that puppy (when in usbflash mode) minimizes the amount of writes to the flash drive. Since journaling happens during writes to the drive, I suspect that the life of a flash drive should be long if one is runny puppy:

From wikipedia:

Journal (lowest risk)
Both metadata and file contents are written to the journal before being committed to the main file system. Because the journal is relatively continuous on disk, this can improve performance, if the journal has enough space. In other cases, performance gets worse, because the data must be written twice—once to the journal, and once to the main part of the filesystem.[13]

Ordered (medium risk)
Only metadata is journaled; file contents are not, but it's guaranteed that file contents are written to disk before associated metadata is marked as committed in the journal. This is the default on many Linux distributions. If there is a power outage or kernel panic while a file is being written or appended to, the journal will indicate that the new file or appended data has not been "committed", so it will be purged by the cleanup process. (Thus appends and new files have the same level of integrity protection as the "journaled" level.) However, files being overwritten can be corrupted because the original version of the file is not stored. Thus it's possible to end up with a file in an intermediate state between new and old, without enough information to restore either one or the other (the new data never made it to disk completely, and the old data is not stored anywhere). Even worse, the intermediate state might intersperse old and new data, because the order of the write is left up to the disk's hardware.[13][14]

Writeback (highest risk)
Only metadata is journaled; file contents are not. The contents might be written before or after the journal is updated. As a result, files modified right before a crash can become corrupted. For example, a file being appended to may be marked in the journal as being larger than it actually is, causing garbage at the end. Older versions of files could also appear unexpectedly after a journal recovery. The lack of synchronization between data and journal is faster in many cases. JFS uses this level of journaling, but ensures that any "garbage" due to unwritten data is zeroed out on reboot. XFS also uses this form of journaling.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?ti ... ing_levels

[Mike Walsh]

It is probably an error to continue to use

- 32 bit on 64 bit
- ext3 instead of ext4
- old grub legacy instead of official actual grub!

Mmm...

So, in other words, you're recommending the use of 64-bit, bog-standard mainstream Linux. Why? I thought these were the Puppy forums.....not the Debian 'mafia'. And I fail to see what it has to do with helping tallboy to find a 'Puppy' for his needs.

32-bit Pups run very fast on a 64-bit CPU. I've been running them that way for years.....with great success.

And as for 'official' GRUB2.....arrghh!!! I want nothing to do with that misbegotten abortion of a thing. How a bootloader can be that bloated, and need so many different files in so many different places (not to speak of wanting its own partition...??!!), is completely beyond me.

To me, Puppy is all about the K.I.S.S principle. (Keep It Simple, Stupid...) And that's why I like Grub4DOS. For my purposes, at least, it just 'works'....


Mike.

[ITSMERSH]

He he!

Yes!

Grub4DOS and 32bit Puppy on a 64bit machine!

I have had a machine with Kubuntu 11.04 installed. It was such a hassle to change the boot order on that machine (grub boot loader). Finally I could do it after using pFind and searching for the grub menu entry in text files on HD.

How a bootloader can be that bloated, and need so many different files in so many different places

Yes, totally crap imho.

It looks like it was designed mainly to guarantee its developers a full lifetime job.

[mikeslr]

As they say when selling stocks & bonds "Your experience may vary".

...Ext4 ...with the journalling disabled (^has_journal).

journalling is what enables Ext3 & Ext4 to correct errors. Disabling it returns one to the equivalent of the more corruption-prone Ext2 but (I would think) using more computer resources in order to support Ext4. Moreover, as s243a posted, "I believe that puppy (when in usbflash mode) minimizes the amount of writes to the flash drive". Using grub4dos, or Puppy Installer automatically creates that (Pupmode 13) when installing to a USB-Key. You can manually establish that Pupmode 13 for a hard-drive install. See this thread, skip to the last 2 or 3 pages for Series 5 Puppies, http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=81911. There is no good reason for your OS to automatically write to a USB-Stick (or a hard-drive) if you don't have a reason for preserving something. Removing the Automatic-Save reduces wear on your USB-stick as well as avoiding preserving crap.

I have to use Ext2 on my bootable Tahrpup partition because GNU grub version 0.97 will not boot from an Ext4 partition.

There are two versions of Ext4. Grub4dos can not read the 64-bit version of Ext4 now being created when other ('Big Distros') versions of Linux format drives/partitions. The gparted which is built into Puppies (still) creates a 32-bit version of Ext4. Puppies published in the last several years (I think all Series 5) including Tahrpup can boot from and otherwise use a 32-bit Ext4 partition. Earlier Puppies can not.

IIRC --I'm currently too lazy to search for my prior post written after researching the specifics-- the maximum size of a partition which can be managed as an Ext3 partition is 16 Terabytes. I don't have any drive anywhere near that size. Again, suspecting that using Ext4-32-bit will require more computer resources than Ext3, I don't see any advantage, and don't. In short, I use Ext3.

I manually format USB-Keys using gparted. Puppies provide more options when run from a Linux Ext drive/partition. On the other hand, Windows can not natively read Linux Ext drives/partitons and computers using the UEFI boot mechanizm expect such bootloader to not be on a Linux Ext drive/partiton. So, in formatting the USB-Key I create a small (<100 MB) first Fat32 partition to hold the bootloader but place Puppies on the 2nd Ext3 formatted partition. If I expect to use the USB-Key to also transfer files between Windows and Linux, I'll either increase the size of the first partition or create a 3rd Fat32 partition. [I think the latter is a better practice --less likely to screw-up the first partition/bootloader-- but will resort to the former with <=8 Gb USB-Keys].

At any rate, with 1M writes before a USB-Key formatted Ext3 becomes corrupt, it's more likely to be lost/replaced before that happens.

[bigpup]

If Puppy is on a USB flash drive.
It boots into pupmode 13.
Has a save icon on the desktop.
In Puppy Event Manager>Save Session
Set save interval to zero(0)
Check the ask at shutdown if you want to save.

Now, as you are booted and running Puppy, any changes, that need to be written to the save, are only in the save ram disk.
Writes are only made to the USB flash drive when you click on the desktop save icon or choose to save at shutdown.
Not a lot of anything going on in ext3 or ext4 until you select to save.

[Peterm321]

IIRC --I'm currently too lazy to search for my prior post written after researching the specifics-- the maximum size of a partition which can be managed as an Ext3 partition is 16 Terabytes. I don't have any drive anywhere near that size. Again, suspecting that using Ext4-32-bit will require more computer resources than Ext3, I don't see any advantage, and don't. In short, I use Ext3.

I suppose I did wander from the topic a bit, but as you rightly allude people's mileage may vary. For me I haven't used journalling wouldn't care too much for all those writes. I'm old enough to remember floppy drives and its two FATS but whenever I corrupted a file the corruption affected both FATs and never once benefitted from it so I miss (not) the protection of journalling also.

Ext4 comes with extra options over Ext2 including the use of extents and faster fsck time. For some reason or another Android adopted Ext4 rather than go for the supposedly then available Ext2. I do use Ext2 on my boot partition though, as my version of GRUB will not read Ext4.

https://superuser.com/questions/31324/i ... cant-issue

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/239 ... ndroid-use

Getting back to this main thread topic, having used Wary, Raring and now Tahr I would say I'm happy with Tahr though may opt for a PAE Puppy if my RAM was greater than 4GB.

[oui]

I Mike

It is probably an error to continue to use

- 32 bit on 64 bit
- ext3 instead of ext4
- old grub legacy instead of official actual grub!

Mmm...

So, in other words, you're recommending the use of 64-bit, bog-standard mainstream Linux. Why? I thought these were the Puppy forums.....not the Debian 'mafia'. And I fail to see what it has to do with helping tallboy to find a 'Puppy' for his needs.

Stooooop! They are some excellent 64 bit Puppies for each need! You will do their authors wrong with another claim and split the community into two communities! It is to late: Puppy has reached the stage of 64 bits into it.... And as I see also Barry!

32-bit Pups run very fast on a 64-bit CPU. I've been running them that way for years.....with great success.

Also I: I use Pupjibaro Jessie daily, I like it, as it present himself, the scope of stuff offered, the today possibility to use synaptic etc, But not really with great success! Seamonkey, my prefered browser as a very old Puppyist claims "waiting too long waiting time" on pages of news papers offering an great quantity of animations! my processor has 8 32-bit cores!

For this reason I use also the 64 bit puppy with the same version of Seamonkey, but all 64 bit in puppy_bionicpup64 (a great version of Puppy)! No sluggishness any more! In the past I was an assembler programmer for TMS9000 as well as Z80 but 4 decades are gone! Will you stop the 64 bit aera? We can't: we are a too small community and also need powerful solutions for pictures, video, sound and games... If our 64 bit offering is only offered as an outsider of Puppy, our offering will not continue to be attractive. It is unrealistic!

And as for 'official' GRUB2.....arrghh!!! I want nothing to do with that misbegotten abortion of a thing. How a bootloader can be that bloated, and need so many different files in so many different places (not to speak of wanting its own partition...??!!), is completely beyond me.

To me, Puppy is all about the K.I.S.S principle. (Keep It Simple, Stupid...) And that's why I like Grub4DOS. For my purposes, at least, it just 'works'....

Mike.

I continue to use Debian as it is the only one preserved (about) completely open source Linux standard (a bit, but only a bit now any more, with Slackware). I know that a lot of Puppyists are apprehensive to erase Windows from her PC. I have no Windows any more since ab. 10 y.! But I am apprehensive don't to be able to try divers things offered by Debian, sorry. Ok it would possible to do the same with Arch. But Arch is to strenuous for as it's need permanent update. In Debian, I can sometimes use 5 y. and more the same level from SID to the publication of the next stable! And after that it is possible to use the set of CD's/DVD'S I can buy for only some money... I will never have the problems of erased binary depositories I have in Puppy's with Ubuntu based versions : no binary any more (of course not for the standard Puppy applications being on the separate Puppy depository!).

but the price: I must accept the world wide standard and it is the actual Grub!

sorry....

[tallboy]

musher0, I was wrong! Your Xenialpup does save to a multisession CD-R. But, as with BionicBeaver, the Save button which appears on the desktop after the initial save, won't accept a CD. The save process is active at shutdown only.

You must keep your puppies quite small if a multi-session cd is sufficient storage for you!

Yes, and that is a great concern with some of the latest Pupys, they are too big! I have some old PCs with max 512 Mb RAM, and the one used for testing (368Mb) refused to boot with the large Puppys, it simply stopped during the loading process. If they boot, I can always make them run, with a little help fiom a big swap-partition. The problem is that the load process only register a swap partition, it doesn't use it during loading.
I usually save my files in work to the HDD or to a memory stick. I try to remaster the Puppy to shrink it as much as possible, and I do most of the prefs settings before I make an .iso. The later saves are mainly used for setup that I forgot to include in the .iso, or additional programs. I use CD, because most of my PCs can read a CD, but not all can read a DVD. Besides, they're cheap!

We have had discussions earlier on which ext fs to use, for both HDDs and flash memory. As mikeslr, I prefer to use ext2 because it can be read by all 'nixes, and I see no reason to waste storage space for a journal.

For the first time in my life, I have a 'modern' PC with plenty RAM and sufficient storage space. But even after clearing out some old computerware, I have some old PCs with specific demands. And just like oui, I have one PC stuffed full of Debian, but I only use it for demanding operations.

Se earlier post:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/posting.ph ... SC#1010148
I tried to load both the .pet and .sfs with nvidia drivers to the BionicBeaver, and at the end they just crashed. The .sfs want you to accept a new xorg.conf, and both versions ask you to reboot to activate the driver. That is a bit difficult when you run the driver from an .sfs, and especially with a live Puppy!

[ITSMERSH]

I have some old PCs with max 512 Mb RAM, and the one used for testing (368Mb) refused to boot with the large Puppys, it simply stopped during the loading process.

Try booting with pfix=nocopy.

[tallboy]

Thank you, I'll try that.

[musher0]

musher0, I was wrong! Your Xenialpup does save to a multisession CD-R. But, as with BionicBeaver, the Save button which appears on the desktop after the initial save, won't accept a CD. The save process is active at shutdown only.
(...)

Hi tallboy.

Phew! Thanks again for this second report.

Would you have noticed if that is to CD-R only? Or if CD+R, CD-RW.
also work?

I must confess I only use DVD-RW's myself anymore (when I use them).
They're cheaper now than CD's, and have always been faster.

Probably an experienced Puppyist such as you has already done this,
but as a reminder: is the CD/DVD burner itself clean of dust?

And how old is the burner? If older than three years and you've used it
a lot, may I suggest you replace with a new one?

Sometimes we idealists tend to forget the basic material fact that
hardware does wear down with use...

BFN.

[tallboy]

I'll do some deep cleaning and report back to you, musher0. But I refuse to wear an apron!

BTW, the sound in your Xenial's VLC is crap, I installed Audacious and got an immediate improvement. The level of sound is also much lower than in my older PCs. I have not installed any nvidia driver yet, I don't know if that will affect sound also.

[musher0]

Hi tallboy.

For music I switched to Aqualung with LADSPA, and for movies, mpv, in my
unpublished modular version with echinus as WM.

One could also resort to an ffplay wrapper to play any audio or visual
resource -- and reduce the overall footprint of the xenialPup. (I'm toying
with the idea. Ffplay does not know what to do with movie DVD's, however
-- or I missed something!)

About using an nvidia driver, it should not make any difference as to sound.
Sound goes through the ALSA libs or similar; not through the video card
driver.

BFN.

[nic007]

I'll do some deep cleaning and report back to you, musher0. But I refuse to wear an apron!

BTW, the sound in your Xenial's VLC is crap, I installed Audacious and got an immediate improvement. The level of sound is also much lower than in my older PCs. I have not installed any nvidia driver yet, I don't know if that will affect sound also.

Don't know about Xenial but the sound quality of my VLC running with Tahr605 is excellent. Are you utilizing VLC's excellent effects ie. pre-amp and equalizer sufficiently? Also - your ALSA sound level should be set to the maximum level with the newer puppys.

[tallboy]

Thank you, nic007. I'll play around with the different settings, it takes a little time to get to know a new Puppy.