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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Derivatives
What happened to Wary64?
Moderators: Flash, JohnMurga
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Wac

Joined: 20 May 2009
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Fri 26 Oct 2018, 06:32    Post subject:  What happened to Wary64?  

When I first started using Puppy Linux a few years ago the main goal of the project was to create a OS with an ISO image which is smaller then 100mb. Much have change since. People started to integrate elements of other Linux distributions into Puppy, which made Puppy Linux very big. Today you get versions with very basic apps on it which are bigger then 400mb! I am also not always sure that was the right path of Puppy Linux because I understand all these bits of other distributions made it easier to load extra software / apps to it, but I also think it made Puppy more un-safe in a world where all computers are connected to the Internet, because originally Puppy was very unique in its source code.

In 2015 BarryK developed a 64-bit very small version of Puppy called Warry64. When would someone try to develop something like that again. I think it would be useful to have a 64-bit very small (less then 180mb) version containing only Puppy source code.
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 1283

PostPosted: Fri 26 Oct 2018, 09:49    Post subject:  

I never heard of Wary64 until now, so I googled and found the orginal thread:

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=97699

Wary64 also seems to be referenced from the Quirky7 Thread:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=97897
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mistfire

Joined: 04 Nov 2008
Posts: 992
Location: PH

PostPosted: Fri 26 Oct 2018, 10:05    Post subject:  

If you want small puppy yet updated. You can try TazPuppy. A Puppy made from Slitaz package. Its file size was big as Puppy 4.0 (only 88Mb) however it uses TazPkg package by default but still you can use pet packages on TazPuppy but it as root.

Also X-Slacko Slim, another puplet was small (around 160Mb) yet full featured and it can install almost any kind of linux package format.
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 2785
Location: 500 seconds from Sol

PostPosted: Fri 26 Oct 2018, 12:41    Post subject:  

"Cheap" RAM and Storage Media. Graphics and Anti-Malware Creep. More 'Bells & Whistles' for all applications.

NASA sent men to the moon with the computing power of a Commodore 64 -- that's 64 Kilobytes of RAM with a 20 Kilobyte ROM. The Commodore 64 (without a monitor) in 1970 cost about $250: taking inflation into consideration, roughly $1,500 in today's economy.

There was a time when, compared to today's prices, the cost of RAM and Storage Media --hard-drives, CDs, etc.-- were expensive. Computers were sold with 256 Mbs of RAM (if that) and a 30 Gb of Hard-drive (if that). Operating systems and the applications which ran on them had to function within such constraints. Paying good salaries to programmers who had the expertise and were expected take the time to write tight code was more profitable than not.

IIRC, someone yesterday posted his recollection that Windows NT functioned using only 80 Mbs of Storage. I caught a commercial yesterday that the, I think, new iphone has a terabyte of storage.

A couple years ago, when the Warys were published, the opera 12.16 web-browser package would take up 13 Mbs of storage and expand in RAM to 39 Mbs. IIRC, firefox at that time came in a 24 Mb package. The current Google-Chrome is packaged as a 69 Mb SFS. Fully expanded, that requires 267 Mbs. Among the reasons that package is so large is that it depends on gtk3, as do many recent applications. Gtk3 is larger than Gtk2 and significantly larger than Gtk1. The Gtks are the Graphic libraries. Gtk3 makes possible the rendering of the graphic rich content of many websites; websites which opera 12.16 can't properly display, or display at all. Gtk is just one example of the foundation libraries required by operating systems. And to manage larger libraries the operating systems, themselves, have had to become more complex and, thus, larger.

And then there's the constant battle against malware that has to be incorporated into new applications, especially web-browser, but also into new kernels --the 'motor' used to drive Linux operating systems.

The 20 horse-power engine of the Model T Ford enabled a maximum speed of 45 mph. The Model T cost about $825, roughly $18,000 in today's economy. Not included were radios, air conditioners, air-bags, and similar 'bells and whistles' we require or take for granted in a modern automobile.

A great deal of pleasure can be had developing or even just using an operating system which frugally uses and maximizes the use of computing resources (RAM, CPU and Storage) we generally now have available. And for some of us, personally, that "generally" doesn't apply -- maximizing the use of what computing resources are available is a matter of necessity. Efforts, such as those to develop Tazpup, have an importance beyond the knowledge acquired during their development, which knowledge can be useful in later, more general, endeavors.

But It is not fair to compare operating systems being published today with those published at a time having different economic, social and technological conditions.
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11272
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Fri 26 Oct 2018, 13:32    Post subject:  

It is easy to make a small Puppy version if you do not put everything that may be needed in it.
If you want a Puppy version to be able to support as much different hardware as possible, it is going to be of some size.
A good modern Browser is going to be 50MB + in size.
The Linux kernel keeps getting bigger, offering better hardware support and more features.

Example:
X-Slacko Slim 4.4r23 (171MB)
* Office applications removed (to reduce puplet size)
* Midori browser instead of Firefox (to reduce puplet size)
* Some large files and old drivers removed (to reduce puplet size)
These are probably where most of the 100MB+ reduction in size is coming from.

It is still amazing that the latest official Puppies are around 300MB+ and offer as much as they do.

Compare Puppy to Linux Mint 19 "Tara" - Xfce (64-bit)
Size 1.8GB Shocked Rolling Eyes

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When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 11272
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Fri 26 Oct 2018, 14:06    Post subject:  

Quote:
People started to integrate elements of other Linux distributions into Puppy, which made Puppy Linux very big

This seems to be a common misunderstanding.

A Linux operating system has to have in it some basic common files/programs to run.
All Linux OS's have these same files/programs.

Puppy has to get this stuff from someplace.
It needs to be a repository that keeps these core Linux files/programs up to date and bug fixed.
Puppy does not have a repository that does this.
Remember, nothing in Puppy is done by anyone getting payed as their job.

Main Linux OS's (Ubuntu, Mint, Red Hat, etc.... do have people that get payed to keep their repositories updated.

So, Puppy goes to these main Linux OS repositories and gets the needed Linux core files/programs, needed to make a working Linux OS!

About 2/3 of any Puppy is very much Puppy specific code and programs.

_________________
I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 4349
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 26 Oct 2018, 19:50    Post subject:  

" Remember, nothing in Puppy is done by anyone getting payed as their job. "

Now he tells me...12 years too late.

I'm outa here after this.

Cheers Mr Biggie....Chris.
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 1283

PostPosted: Fri 26 Oct 2018, 20:36    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:
Quote:
People started to integrate elements of other Linux distributions into Puppy, which made Puppy Linux very big

This seems to be a common misunderstanding.

A Linux operating system has to have in it some basic common files/programs to run.
All Linux OS's have these same files/programs.

Puppy has to get this stuff from someplace.
It needs to be a repository that keeps these core Linux files/programs up to date and bug fixed.
Puppy does not have a repository that does this.
Remember, nothing in Puppy is done by anyone getting payed as their job.

Main Linux OS's (Ubuntu, Mint, Red Hat, etc.... do have people that get payed to keep their repositories updated.

So, Puppy goes to these main Linux OS repositories and gets the needed Linux core files/programs, needed to make a working Linux OS!

About 2/3 of any Puppy is very much Puppy specific code and programs.


The Silatz repository has much less bloat then Ubuntu repositories. This makes TazPup a good choice if one is trying to make a lean system with a diversity of applications. I think that FatDog64 also has it's own repository. Warry also had a fairly large repository of it's own.

It's true that puppylinux has much fewer resources than the larger distros but at times the community has been able to put together sizable repositories of it's own.
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s243a

Joined: 02 Sep 2014
Posts: 1283

PostPosted: Fri 26 Oct 2018, 20:42    Post subject:  

bigpup wrote:


Puppy has to get this stuff from someplace.
It needs to be a repository that keeps these core Linux files/programs up to date and bug fixed.
Puppy does not have a repository that does this.
Remember, nothing in Puppy is done by anyone getting payed as their job.


Where practical and with resources permitting we can compile these application without things like systemd and gnome dependencies.
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