Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Tue 02 Sep 2014, 06:30
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
howto build a grand unified puppy
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
Page 3 of 5 [64 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Author Message
amish

Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 616

PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb 2007, 05:15    Post subject:  

Quote:
Your word processors are actually text editors. Big difference between the two Smile Smile

just so long as we can agree they aren't graphics editors...

yes, the things under "word processing" in barebones are text editors. they aren't word processors per se, because barebones doesn't have one, but they are under the same category they are in under the puppy 2.11 menu. i haven't seen the xdg version yet. if you look in the core, there is abiword, which i consider a "word processor" because it handles layouts, pictures, and colored text and different fonts. that loads by default. otherwise, there is the optional ooo.sfs.

so- new page, i would rather leave the picture in... on a thread already this size, it shouldn't hurt for people to repeat a couple things:

"i'm not sure if this is technically possible..." the idea is: barebones (don't be fooled, mostly scripts) is 40-50ish mb
barebones+default core is less than 100 mb
barebones+core+all extra .sfs files is less than 400 mb
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
blubb_fallo

Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb 2007, 14:22    Post subject:  

Phew, an whole lot of interesting stuff to read. Wink

Thanks for the pointer, arnish. My idea indeed seems to coincede with wide parts of yours and even more with what NathanF apparently has already done in Grafpup (which I haven't tried yet).

Aren't the size figures still a bit high? As an admittedly extreme example, see Micropuppy with 12MiB. Thanks to MU, who reactivated the download yesterday, I could play around with it a bit - it's cute! Of course, all the wizards, installers, MUT, well, almost everything is missing, but still ... amazing. Very Happy The Fox apps (XFE, adie, shutterbug) turn out to be a very good choice.

On the upper end, there is e. g. JM''s Mean Puppy 2.02 AKA PuppyOpera - mere 50 MiB and perfectly usable. Due to Opera, it provides not just slick and convenient web browsing (even including my beloved (customized) mouse guestures Smile), but also chat, a sophisticated news and email client, a download manager and even bittorrent. I'm still sticking with it (in the hope for the next PuppyOpera to come), because none of the other Puppy releases I have tried since then was nearly as efficient. Anway - that's just my personal favor, meant to indicate that 50MiB probably are quite a bit more than necessary for a "barebones" pup_xxx.sfs already.

For a fully modular Puppy, I would not bundle anything as unrelated as e. g. didiwiki and seamonkeymail together in one sfs, though. With a "modpup chooser" we could easily have 10 to 20 sfs to choose from at the first menu screen, and there should be a richer choice at deeper levels. Instead of putting the most likely wanted "core" apps into a single sfs, their (separate) modules could be preselected in the modpup menu to allow for easy first time booting.

See also http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=15889 for more on this concept.

Last edited by blubb_fallo on Wed 28 Feb 2007, 19:17; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
amish

Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 616

PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb 2007, 17:09    Post subject:  

Quote:
Instead of putting the most likely wanted "core" apps into a single sfs, their (separate) modules could be preselected in the modpup menu to allow for easy first time booting.


here we have a difference in philosophy. i am aiming for a "more puppy-like than puppy" distro, one that shows you various things in core.sfs by default. this is a bit more like puppy has been as long as i've known him, since version 1.07 (not really, too much to explain there.)

making someone choose all that information on the first run would be daunting, i think. better to make it as undaunting as possible. while people try to make setup of puppy easier, others try to complicate it, i'm not sure which is worse Smile but i'm referring to the "default" boot from cd... installing puppy will hopefully become easier, but is still an exception to the rule.

yes, it would be cool to have puppy small again, and that's really the reason why i've tried to come up with a way to make it 50, 70-80, and 400 in size, when 60 is becoming a thing of the past, when 70 is becoming 80 and 90, and 100, and when 400 is (damnit, no!) becoming 600 at which point puppy is just another fullsize cd distro. no! puppy is small.

but it's also simple. your "choose everything before you run" plan isn't fit for a livecd at all, imo. mine lets you get back to 50mb in a Hurry, without knowing much about puppy, but it also lets the person do it the old way: burn an iso and just run the thing and SEE a *working* os In Action. how many do that? well... kinda dsl, kinda, feather, they're okay. puppy was/is, imo better, and i don't want to be more like dsl. i want puppy to be more like puppy. (only moreso.) i think making it more modular can help, and yeah- grafpup 104 is a shining example to us all. i hope grafpup 2 is under 100mb. p.s. didwiki needs a browser, they go together better than you think. i only suggested it because it's already in puppy, and it's a pretty neat little tool.

_________________
sadly, it is not possible to separate politics from free software. free software - politics = unfree software.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
SirDuncan


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb 2007, 17:17    Post subject:  

The only problem I can see with this is that, if I understand correctly, Puppy will only load one .sfs file into RAM. So Puppy would have to mount the CD and run from it, whereas it currently loads into RAM and then you can take out the CD. Am I wrong about this?

I believe there is a way to mount .sfs files without a save file. It would require modifying a boot script, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to say how.

_________________
Be brave that God may help thee, speak the truth even if it leads to death, and safeguard the helpless. - A knight's oath
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
amish

Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 616

PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb 2007, 18:01    Post subject:  

absolutely. we are talking about something still hypothetical that requires puppy to have SLIGHTLY MODIFIED capability. there are some that know how- nathan is one.

keep in mind i'm talking about something i sincerely hope will be based on a version of puppy with LGPL startup scripts. barry has been considering that since 2.14, 2.14 may have them for all i know, but if it's 2.16 or 2.18 i'd just assume wait for that. i don't know how or who the building will be / doing the building. it's what's called "pre-alpha" and hopefully not but potentially what's called "vaperware"
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
blubb_fallo

Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 19

PostPosted: Wed 28 Feb 2007, 18:41    Post subject:  

amish wrote:
Quote:
Instead of putting the most likely wanted "core" apps into a single sfs, their (separate) modules could be preselected in the modpup menu to allow for easy first time booting.

here we have a difference in philosophy.

I guess, we do have differences somewhere, but I'm not sure whether this is such a case. Smile Maybe I should have duplicated some details from the linked-to other thread here: the modpup selector needs to have a short timeout, say, 3 or 5 seconds, so it is possible to interact if you want to change the default selection (or what was saved).

A first time user will hardly interrupt, but s/he will recognize that there is more that could be worth exploring later.

This behavior has an advantage over puppy's current implementation of the initial video setup wizard (which is skipped completely once you have made a choice): it is and remains evident when and where you can change the settings again in case that's needed, e. g. due to hardware exchange.
When you pay attention, it is not difficult to enter the dialog at the right moment, but the short delay does not affect the speedy boot experience, either.
You may check out e. g. UBCD to see this method in action.

amish wrote:
i am aiming for a "more puppy-like than puppy" distro, one that shows you various things in core.sfs by default.
...
making someone choose all that information on the first run would be daunting, i think. better to make it as undaunting as possible.

I fully agree. I wouldn't want to have a first time user go through a sixteenfold multiple choice of module groups to load. That's no difference between our views. The difference, if any, is more about providing the user with either boulders or bricks. Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Colonel Panic


Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 1511

PostPosted: Thu 01 Mar 2007, 02:58    Post subject: Core philosophy  

For me the "bottom line" for Puppy is its speed; it has to be small enough to load completely into RAM.

I can click on an icon in Puppy and see that app load instantly, which I can't do in any other distro I'm aware of.

Having said that, more and more people now have 128+ MB of RAM, so I don't see any reason why Puppy can't be released in different sized versions for those with more RAM to play with.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
amish

Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 616

PostPosted: Thu 01 Mar 2007, 04:52    Post subject:  

Quote:
the modpup selector needs to have a short timeout, say, 3 or 5 seconds, so it is possible to interact if you want to change the default selection (or what was saved).

A first time user will hardly interrupt, but s/he will recognize that there is more that could be worth exploring later.


well that's interesting, and better than it first sounded.


Quote:
I fully agree. I wouldn't want to have a first time user go through a sixteenfold multiple choice of module groups to load. That's no difference between our views.


mm, we probably still disagree on some minor things, although that's not a big deal. a lot of the time when people disagree strongly, they're disagreeing based on misunderstanding what the other person is really trying to say.


Quote:
I don't see any reason why Puppy can't be released in different sized versions for those with more RAM to play with.


yes Smile rather than three versions really, one that starts medium (but under 100mb) and can somehwat instantly become about half that, or 4 times that. you can fit almost anything in 400mb- but only with puppy. why? because puppy has always tried very hard to stay small, and it does an excellent job of its original goals, instantly rewarding people seeking that it do so. let's be fair, slax and sourcemage can do it too. (but they're not as simple as puppy.)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
John Doe

Joined: 01 Aug 2005
Posts: 1689
Location: Michigan, US

PostPosted: Thu 01 Mar 2007, 05:16    Post subject: re: howto build a grand unified puppy
Subject description: re: howto build a grand unified puppy
 

T2!!!!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5016
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2007, 04:14    Post subject:  

Sir Duncan & Colonel Panic; If there are many sfs (Squash) files, then as many
can load into memory as there's space for them, manually or automatically.

I don't know why you'd want to not have a Save file... you couldn't install apps.


I just made a MicroMuppyOpera version with a 12MB core Squash file, a 6MB
image.gz file & the kernel is 1MB, that equals a total of 19MB in size.
But the Squash file's only 12MB, so it can load to memory on a PC with +32MB!

As MU said, it's good for specific purposes, really anything except games & movies as it has no Xorg, to add it would probably increase size by over 10MB.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
SirDuncan


Joined: 09 Dec 2006
Posts: 836
Location: Ohio, USA

PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2007, 11:24    Post subject:  

We want these .sfs files to load from a live CD before we have made a save file. The idea is to seperate the program suite from the core OS and still be able to run Puppy like we do now. I often show off Puppy to others by booting from a CD on their PC without a save file. If you can only load additional .sfs files with a save file, then our plan won't work.
_________________
Be brave that God may help thee, speak the truth even if it leads to death, and safeguard the helpless. - A knight's oath
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
xwiredtva

Joined: 02 Mar 2007
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2007, 12:29    Post subject:  

If I can I'd like to propose something here, maybe it's what everyones thinking but here it goes. Also been using Pup off and on since 1.02

One Solid Stable Base system, Barry has this covered.
Side devloped based of Base (we have this now)

One Package manager to handle all Pets/Pups with modifiable Repos... I know there is one but it's not built into the base.

One MASTER repository to get what you want, and spelled out better. I had to search left, right up and down to find Pizza and Graf...

I'd like to donate server space and bandwith as well as web design to the master repo for this. Subdomain was already setup at linux.simplistiksoftware.com and I'll setup anonymouse FTP access for the repo of Pups/pets. That is if it's OK with everyone.

I can take care of a Main Page with links to Barry's site, Grafs, Pizza but we should maintain all Master Distro's along with Base on ONE SITE to simplify everything.

Aside from that 2.14 is EXCELLENT! Kudo's to all developers! It's fantastic.

You can reach me on this board or linux (at) simplistiksoftware.com

While Linux is NOT what we do it is a hobby of mine since 1996. However the days with a 16 port KVM filled up in my second bedroom making PP&L rich are over. Really wish I had a picture of this setup, it was a mess.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5016
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2007, 16:07    Post subject:  

SirDuncan; The Save file has nothing to do with anything except app. installs,
settings, & other stuff that's not saved on drive partitions etc.

The UnionFS stacks the sfs files together, with or without the Save file.
For Puppy-2 the union is made at bootup, Puppy-1 can swap sfs files anytime.
Any partitions, dirs., or image files you want to add, can be part of the union.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Pizzasgood


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 6270
Location: Knoxville, TN, USA

PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2007, 16:26    Post subject:  

I don't know much about .sfs files, so I don't know if he's correct or not. But I think what SirDuncan is saying is that Puppy doesn't see the .sfs files to load them unless you have a save-file on the harddrive. I think otherwise it might ignore the harddrive.

I do know that Puppy does not see my devx_xxx.sfs file when I boot with pfix=ram. Only when I let it load a save-file. I don't know if it behaves the same way when there isn't a save file.

_________________
Between depriving a man of one hour from his life and depriving him of his life there exists only a difference of degree. --Muad'Dib

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
Eyes-Only


Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 1046
Location: La Confederation Abenaquaise

PostPosted: Fri 02 Mar 2007, 16:54    Post subject:  

No, it doesn't see them Pizza. I can tell you this now so you can know. Smile I just downloaded your Pizzapup 3.0 (by the way---a brilliant piece of work which pleases BOTH you & I!) and what I did before even starting the disk was to move the two "pza" files from the CD disk onto my second partition where I was going to keep my "pza_save.3fs" file after I did all my settings.

In the bootup process it scanned my entire hard drive, all 4 partitions, loaded the two "pza" files from the CD instead of the 2nd partition, loaded my swap partition, and away we went.

I then did all of my settings and saved the "pza_save.3fs" to the 2nd partition and rebooted. It was then upon the reboot that it found the two "pza" files right beside the save file and loaded from there. Total load time: 10 seconds to working desktop. Smile Sweet!

I've likewise noticed this exact same behaviour with all Puppies and puplets Pizza. The save file must be created before it'll see the other two files from the hard drive. But until then it pulls from the CD disk.

I hope this helps?

By the way: I think your version and ToutouLinux are two of the most beautiful puplets out there. You've done excellent work in creating not just a highly functional and extremely useful puplet---but a gorgeous piece of art as well. Congrats!

Amicalement,

Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"

_________________
*~*~*~*~*~*
Proud user of LXpup and 3-Headed Dog. Cool
*~*~*~*~*~*
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 3 of 5 [64 Posts]   Goto page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.1101s ][ Queries: 13 (0.0060s) ][ GZIP on ]