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bigpup
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 14:08    Post subject:

Dealing with sound and USB drive issues.
Not too long ago Barry had a discussion about USB drives and save files.
Not sure if this is now implemented in Lucid 528 or even an issue, but just something to look at.
The code changes needed are in the comments toward the end.
http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=02514

I would agree, that having active on board sound and an add on sound card, will cause problems. Usually disabling the on board sound, in bios, works.
Keep in mind, just because the hardware is there, does not meen it works.
Sylvander
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 12:43    Post subject:

In my copy of Lupu-528.003...
The file /usr/sbin/snapmergepuppy exists...
There is within that file, the following line:
Code:
#110224 BK: revert remove all /dev, for now. 110503 added dev/snd


Also a couple of lines that include as part [at the end] of the line:
Code:
#110222 shinobar: remove all /dev
rerwin
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 11:17    Post subject:

zekebaby wrote:
I had the same problem with disappearing sound awhile ago in Wary. IIRC (If I Recall Correctly), I added a line to the /usr/bin/snapmergepuppy script to delete the /dev folder. Barry implemented my fix in Wary, but removed just /dev/snd to be more conservative. Look for comment #110224 in snapmergepuppy in the latest Wary to see the fix. Since Lupu doesn't run on this old laptop, I can't verify whether the snapmergepuppy actually script exists in Lupu.
Rc.shutdown already invokes snapmergepuppy for pup-modes 3, 7 & 13. At least, in "patch-2". Is that not sufficient?
Richard
Sage
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 10:44    Post subject:

Quote:
I think I'd rather use onboard sound than sever the connections.
Don't need high performance sound anyway.
I'll begin with the easy methods

Good move. When I build PCs the first question is always 'What do you want it for?' Concording with many surveys, most answer '..just send a few emails and web-surfing.'
Goons down at PCWorld trying to sell them W8PAE4Gb monsters for five hundred notes when all they need is a D1200/256Mb and a copy of Puppy. More important to focus on a good ISP and the house wiring...

All too easy to lose sight of reality, esp. if folks watch too much TV.
zekebaby
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 10:25    Post subject:

Sylvander wrote:

3. "IIRC, I did the mod in snapmergepuppy in Wary (don't know if it exists in Lupu)"
(a) What does this mean?
(b) What is IIRC?
(c) What is snapmergepuppy?

Here's the more detailed explanation.

I had the same problem with disappearing sound awhile ago in Wary. IIRC (If I Recall Correctly), I added a line to the /usr/bin/snapmergepuppy script to delete the /dev folder. Barry implemented my fix in Wary, but removed just /dev/snd to be more conservative. Look for comment #110224 in snapmergepuppy in the latest Wary to see the fix. Since Lupu doesn't run on this old laptop, I can't verify whether the snapmergepuppy actually script exists in Lupu.
Brown Mouse
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 10:12    Post subject:

Sage wrote:
After that, all you need for the radical solution is a magnifying glass like the one grandpa uses to read letters from the Revenue and a scalpel, with or without a holder (ask a friendly nurse?), or 'hobby' knife or even a new Stanley blade. It isn't necessary to tangle with the board inter-layers


How things have progressed!To think back when I worked for many years in the art of multi-layer repair and engineering changes to pcb's,I used a high powered Carl Zeiss microscope and a micro ball mill amongst other tools Smile
Sylvander
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 09:57    Post subject:

(A) STEPS
31. Restored PupsaveHotBackup=5 using Wary-5.2.2, then reboot to Lupu-528.003->[with pmedia=ataflash in isolinux.cfg in the ISO]
32. Installed snapmergefix.pet

(B) All looks well, with loudspeaker icon displayed.
Let's see how long that lasts.
Will report back after some reboots.

@Sage
(C) I have a magnifying glass and a scalpel, but...
I think I'd rather use onboard sound than sever the connections.
Don't need high performance sound anyway.
I'll begin with the easy methods and [if that fails] work my way up to increasing difficulty, but only if/as/when necessary.
Sage
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 09:50    Post subject:

Horses & Courses, Kev!
Depends if you want OK or excellence.
And it really ain't rocket science or need special tools as you suggest.
Folks round here tend to be techno geeks. Mostly they are good at reading, good at searching and surfing, although comprehension is lacking amongst the usual suspects. The datasheet shows a square/rectangle with numbers around it and the keyway. The numbers correspond to a bunch of irrelevant functions apart from '+', 'in', and 'out'. After that, all you need for the radical solution is a magnifying glass like the one grandpa uses to read letters from the Revenue and a scalpel, with or without a holder (ask a friendly nurse?), or 'hobby' knife or even a new Stanley blade. It isn't necessary to tangle with the board inter-layers - the plastic blob is sitting there on the top. If you doubt your talents, then sever all its damn legs!
Those who regularly settle for less know what to expect - that's the message I was sending.
kevin bowers
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 09:09    Post subject:

Sage wrote:
Congratulations! I have been doing HW diagnosis by phone and email for a long time and was 99% sure of your situation.
SW is one thing, but you will always run into problems unless you fix the HW once and for all.
Chances are that the add-in sound card is superior, that's why it was, errr, added.
Look up the specs of on-board and card chips to confirm which is best.
If you just want muzak in the background of indeterminate quality, rip out the add-in card and make do with the on-board sound.
If you need quality for feeding hi-fi, video phone, serious sound projects, it's time to take scalpel in hand and disable that on-board chip in the ways I described above.
There is absolutely no way you can guarantee no problems with the SW until you fix the HW. It may work initially with pd's clever SW manipulation, but one upgrade will break it again every time. Do it now, do it right.


Sage, I agree up to a point. Certainly doing it right is, well, righteous. However, please consider: very few people, even "technicians", can do surgery on PC boards, particularly multi-layer MoBos. I've been using soldering irons since I was 5 and I wouldn't attempt it without special equipment. Hacking out chips is a pretty good way to convert a MoBo into a patch for the hole in the drywall. Disabling the on-board sound in the BIOS is certainly worth trying if possible, and it's reversible. Another point: sound chips on modern boards have improved immensely over the last few years. I am currently using on-board audio for vinyl conversions and hi-fi editing with a high level of success. So I recommend either removing the redundant sound card or disabling the on-board stuff in BIOS lest we throw out the baby with the bathwater!
shinobar
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 08:34    Post subject: snapmergepuppy

Sorry i have not yet reviewed rerwin's code but deleting /dev/snd is good i think.
I proposed to Barry to remove whole /dev in the savefile, but Barry sais we need to keep symlinks.
Yes, we need to keep only symlinks user made but all the rest under /dev can be, should be, removed from the savefile.

EDIT:
Ah, recent woof is removing /dev/snd, It's OK as for sound.
What i want to say is removing whole /dev except symlinks is better. Because i sometimes got trouble with usb printers.
Sage
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 08:22    Post subject:

Congratulations! I have been doing HW diagnosis by phone and email for a long time and was 99% sure of your situation.
SW is one thing, but you will always run into problems unless you fix the HW once and for all.
Chances are that the add-in sound card is superior, that's why it was, errr, added.
Look up the specs of on-board and card chips to confirm which is best.
If you just want muzak in the background of indeterminate quality, rip out the add-in card and make do with the on-board sound.
If you need quality for feeding hi-fi, video phone, serious sound projects, it's time to take scalpel in hand and disable that on-board chip in the ways I described above.
There is absolutely no way you can guarantee no problems with the SW until you fix the HW. It may work initially with pd's clever SW manipulation, but one upgrade will break it again every time. Do it now, do it right.
playdayz
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 07:20    Post subject:

Sylvander, Thank you for the thorough testing. Here is the latest snapmergepuppy with the change that zekebaby recommended. You could try it on a fresh install of lupu-528.003.iso. No need for any other of the fixes. Let's see if this works.

Quote:
Why no sound problem with other Puppies, only Lupu-528 [not with Lupu-526]?

That is the big question of course. Have you confirmed that it does it in lupu-528.iso without any updates installed? But it could be that some other update was made that caused the snapmergepuppy problem to become serious. That may be grasping at straws though. Anyway, if the snapmerge business doesn't help I am going to give up.
Sylvander
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 06:29    Post subject:

OK...
(A)
1. Phoned ErnieK who gave me this desktop PC...
And took a look inside [the side is permanently OFF], whilst on the phone.
Can't see very well; the PC is in the corner, poor access, could disconnect the cables and take it out to gain better access if needed/suggested.

2. There is an added PC sound card in place, but almost UNUSED.
i.e. There is a sound cable connected from the DVD-RW to the sound-card.
That's the only thing making use of it right now.

3. With on-board sound...
I have a splitter connected to the top/green/line-out 3.2mm jack socket, going to: 1=amplified speakers, and 2=an unamplified headset->[volume is OK, even using line signal].
And the headset mic jack going to the bottom/pink/mic socket.

(B)
What's the best thing to do with these?
1. Use only the better quality sound card, and disable the on-board sound in the BIOS Setup?
The manual shows "Chip Configuration->Onboard PCI Audio" [default=enabled, can be disabled]
I'd prefer to use the sound card methinks.
OR...
2. Remove the sound card, and use the on-board sound?
The manual shows "CD1" on mobo->[3 pins=left-audio,grnd,right-audio] for CD-drive audio->[I see this is not connected right now].
OR...
3. Have BOTH on-board AND the sound card enabled, and use both?
Is that possible?
OR...
4. Have the Puppy choose which or BOTH to use, and software-disable whatever is un-needed?

5. Why no sound problem with other Puppies, only Lupu-528 [not with Lupu-526]?
Sage
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 05:36    Post subject:

Quote:
I saw two sound cards

For almost a decade, possibly even longer, boards have been issued with on-board sound. Folks intending to use posh add-in sound cards, including TV cards, 99-channel theatre sound, etc. should be aware of this. Writing out the on-board chip in BIOS is unreliable. It is necessary to look up the data sheet for the sound chip, identify the power-in, audio-in and audio-out leads and sever them with a scalpel. Then write them out in BIOS. These problems require radical action at the HW end. If you want to sell your board on eBay in ten years time, the on-board sound can be re-enabled with a judicious dab of solder on the cut pins. End of story.
Sylvander
PostPosted: Fri 02 Dec 2011, 04:52    Post subject:

@rerwin

1. I printed out your instructions for a fix from many days back, but it looks rather difficult at 1st glance, and other urgent real-life tasks got in the way, so I've been waiting for the right moment to attempt it.
Is it still appropriate to try this?

2. "just deleting the /dev/snd folder and reboot. That also seemed to work for me. Don't do it from ROX though; add it to the latest shutdown script you can find."
(a) I've previously attempted to delete /dev using Xfe, and that failed to delete.
(b) How to add it [delete of /dev/snd] to the latest shutdown script? Instructions needed.

3. "IIRC, I did the mod in snapmergepuppy in Wary (don't know if it exists in Lupu)"
(a) What does this mean?
(b) What is IIRC?
(c) What is snapmergepuppy?

4. "In analyzing Sylvander's diag files, I saw two sound cards with the same driver and hardware IDs, although their subsystem IDs were different."
I think this donated/gifted hardware has 4-channel sound.
i.e. Surround-sound [via 2-off stereo channels perhaps].

5. "If Sylvander were to look at the setup while sound and retrovol are working, we could test that theory. Instead of getting a diag file, simply capture the output of the command:
cat /proc/asound/*
during a normal run would either confirm or rule out that card duplication as a cause.
"
(a) Would you like me to restore a pupsave backup [to get back to a working system], then run that command?
(b) What then?

6. "In addition, it would be interesting to have those experiencing the problem run that command both while sound/retrovol is working and when it fails."
(a) Once I know HOW [in detail], I could do it also during a fail-state.
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