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vtpup
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 17:07    Post subject:

An unfortunate reminder: if you include a choice of browsers inside the ISO as additional sfs files, you will inflate your puppy ISO for download. So it will no longer be 130 mb -- and all the unused browsers will take up useless space. Not a problem for people with fast connections, but not everyone in the world has that.

On the other hand, an additional 15 mb download to install the browser, as it stands now, is fairly reasonable. The great advantage is that it is current.

As for confusing new users by having to select in quickpet, no more confusing than this: a pre-canned browser will rapidly become outdated after first issue. So the first thing a new user sees on opening the browser is "You are using an out of date version of___________ (name yer poison) The current version ________ contains important security updates" etc. etc. Not the most new user friendly stuff, nor one that wins puppy admirers.

So then the new user has to figure out how to update his/her browser. Which traditionally in Puppy has been a royal pain, and requires far more Linux "knowledge" than quick pet requires to select a current one in the first place. Plus far more time, and far more download time, since you already downloaded one (or more) outdated browsers in the ISO..

BTW all puppies and browsers require downloading by first time users, unless you happen to have a Puppy Linux Store nearby and have purchased a CD. Well, or a puppy wise friend -- who probably could hold your hand through the Quickpet procedure if it seems daunting to actually select a browser by clicking on its icon.) So there is no way of reducing startup downloads, except the present one, since it is the most efficient for an updated browser of choice. Only download once, and only what you want, and only the current version.


EDIT: @Minnesota I missed your point about handing out Puppy disks and wanting to avoid a further download by a new user. Suggestion, If an experienced user wants to do this, it's a simple matter to add one (or more) browser sfs files into the ISO before burning the CD. In this case they would be current.

Or you can load a browser sfs into a clean system and remaster. Then it is pre-installed, as well as current.I believe you can do this on a pfix=ram run even, but not sure about that.
bigpup
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 15:39    Post subject:

Quote:
WHY.... WHY a browser as part of the package. I test a lot... run most of the Flavors of Puppy as stand alone on the CD. Kind of hard to give out a of copy of the CD.... "spreading the word"...and tell the potential user ... OH yes.. .YOU must connect to the Internet to use this.

Am I missing something?
To use a browser pre-installed or given choice to download the browser.
Do not both options require need to be connected to the internet?
Did not Windows, fight a law suit in Europe, over only having "Internet Explorer" in Windows?
My understanding is, they lost, and now Windows in Europe, is required to come with no pre-installed browser. They have to offer a choice of browser to install and use.
In the earlier days of Puppy, the biggest reason for using Seamonkey was, it had more than just the browser. E-mail, editor, etc..
Even back then there was "Puppy browser".
Sure wish that small one could be updated, but it would probably require, bloating it up, like they all are now.
Just to add to the discussion.
The never ending browser war.
majorfoo
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:08    Post subject:

playdayz wrote:
Opinions Wanted Please

I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.

Thanks for opinions.


I vote - leave it as is - let the user decide which browser they want to use.
Minnesota
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 10:26    Post subject: Browser in or Out
Subject description: Browser

Question:

How difficult is it to create TWO flavors?
1) Browser IN.....at least BASIC flavor.
2) Second Version Browser OUT...

OK, third flavor....
Some variation of additional sfs in the ISO, as optional? Think this is done in several of the new Puppy's Could a question be asked at start up time?

WHY.... WHY a browser as part of the package. I test a lot... run most of the Flavors of Puppy as stand alone on the CD. Kind of hard to give out a of copy of the CD.... "spreading the word"...and tell the potential user ... OH yes.. .YOU must connect to the Internet to use this.

My solution... I have a special stick with the browsers pets.

Conclusion: Is there a good compromise, giving both worlds?
kevin bowers
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 09:06    Post subject: Re: Browser Choice

shinobar wrote:

But the seamonkey will not be in the main sfs. It will be shipped in the iso as an additional SFS so that the user easily load it with the sfs_load. Of course it allows to choose your favorite browser replacing the SFS.

Seems like shinobar always has a better solution than anyone else!
ICPUG
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 07:46    Post subject:

When I first came to Lucid I was concerned about leaving out the browser and requiring a separate download.

However, it stopped Browser Wars and Sage talking about Opera all the time! That's a good enough reason for me!

What I don't like about the separate download is the complexity of it. It demands the user gets to know about PPM pretty quickly and have a working Puppy Internet connection. This is where a separate browser sfs is really useful. If you know where it is you can download it with your current working Internet connection.

The system Shinobar mentions to make it easier to load the sfs sounds interesting.

I'm for keeping the Lucid status quo re browsers in home use Puppy. Dillo's not so bad when I have a working puppy Internet connection!

If Lucid Libre ever became Lucid Professional as I advocated a while back then I would add a browser in the base package.

Summary:
Lucid: Leave as is
Lucid Plus: Leave as is
Lucid Libre: Leave as is
Lucid Professional: Lucid Libre + browser + Wine
GMBudwrench
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 04:53    Post subject: browser

playdayz wrote:
I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.

Like the others, I vote leave it as is, let the user decide.
shinobar
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 03:15    Post subject: Browser Choice

playdayz wrote:
I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.

bigpup wrote:
Browser Choice has been a trademark of Lucid.

We Japanse team is now planning lupu-528JP, the Japanese edition.
Our discussion in the Japanese forum for your information:
The lupu-528JP will be shiped with Seamonkey-2.8-ja because the Dilo nor the Midori are not usable for Japanese. We cannot ship any OS with no browser.
But the seamonkey will not be in the main sfs. It will be shipped in the iso as an additional SFS so that the user easily load it with the sfs_load. Of course it allows to choose your favorite browser replacing the SFS.

Also we are trying to load the additional sfs automatically at the first boot. As you know, the LazY Puppy does the similar way.
Our (Japanese) problem is we do not yet have Japanese repository providing the localized browsers and applications.
James C
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 01:28    Post subject:

playdayz wrote:
Opinions Wanted Please

I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.
.


I guess that maintaining the status quo would prevent the inevitable browser wars.
kevin bowers
PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 22:19    Post subject:

playdayz wrote:
Opinions Wanted Please

I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.


In agreement with most of the other responses, the current system ain't broke, why fix it?
jim3630
PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 22:17    Post subject:

some parts of the world connection speeds are very slow and it's pay per min of connection and it's those people who will benefit from a decent browser built in.

would the cost of a decent browser put it over 1 live cd size?
cthisbear
PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 20:28    Post subject:

You have Pwireless2 inbuilt as a Pet???

Why not have a Pet or 2 of browsers.

Seamonkey, Iron, Opera.

Choice for some without an extra download.

Didn't someone also post a Flash that spoofs Youtube etc
into thinking that your version is up to date.

Add that as well.

And Firefox has pigged out long ago.

Chris.
Atle
PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 19:04    Post subject:

Hi bigpup....

The issue revolved it self as I simply did not have time to get all these answers. I tried them all as flash boot and normal install to usb flash. There was no errors apart from USB boot flash not being able to transfer the files and finish the process.

I somehow managed to get the Windows to work on the EEEpc anyhow as the keyboard was failing on windows log on.

The happy ending was one Puppy installation with the JoomlaOnPuppy for a young girl that is interested in computers and webdesign. I am writing from this installation now.

So since i tanked up a old abandoned PC with puppy she now has two machines to play with and I felt good as i did not need to mess with Win7 and dualboot that is sort of risky to just do on someones machine.

But thanks again Bigpup as I was just a bit embarrassed not being able to boot the EEE or anything after doing a live lesson in how to install and boot from USB and FAILING.... But now its all sunshine and all won Very Happy
bigpup
PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 17:41    Post subject:

Atle wrote:
I try the normal way to install and the USB way to install from install menu.

Have you used "Bootflash install Puppy to USB"?
Have you changed the computer bios to boot from USB as the first choice or selected boot from USB from computer boot option menu?
What format is USB flash drive?
Some computers will only boot from USB flash drives that are formatted Fat16 or Fat32.
What files are on the flash drive?
Any error messages you see?
vtpup
PostPosted: Thu 19 Apr 2012, 15:31    Post subject:

Notes on Sulu .001 on comp. in sig below --

missing battery monitor
Drivers tab in QuickPet has no entries. The others do.

This computer uses Intel graphics chips. To get GLX I downloaded Xorg-high-1.1 Lucid pet using the puppy package manager.

glxgears now runs.
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