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rerwin
PostPosted: Sat 21 Apr 2012, 12:30    Post subject: Lupu-to-Upup strategy, mainlining boot-disk remastering

bigpup wrote:
If you plan to combine forces with pemasu and make this the next logical path, for Lucid Puppy, it would be very good idea.
But, it needs to start with all the features of Lucid Puppy already there. After that, just tweaking to fix bugs.
My idea for precise puppy (or whatever it ends up being named) is to package the unique lupu features as installable pets or built into woof. I am open to suggestions for organizing the packages.

Some parts might be the control center(s) and maybe boot-to-desktop if feasible. Please identify the features to preserve.

One thing I am considering is to make Lucid Pup's remastering of "boot disks" a visible feature. To do that, I would like input from those using the hidden capability in lupuplus and patch-8 to make these disks, particularly about anything more that should be done for that process such as clear out some directories like browser caches. There seems to be some interest in having this be generally available:
oui, in the Upup Precise thread, wrote:
As it starts fast and finds all main settings of my PC about himself I would be interesting to use it completely without save file!

Why: old puppy's under 1.1 did work so:

each day a fresh puppy. no change, no spy, no disturb Idea Rolling Eyes

I would remaster it once after I will have adapted my settings, create a /root/,mozilla/seamonkey with different absolute non critic and not sensible entries, a link in /root to /mnt/home/f/my instead of /root/my-documents and would never save somewhat after that in /root as I can do it directly hitting on the link my-documents Idea so

- I don't need some save file any more at all,
- have a system never changing in all details in the puppy file system
- have a system with highest confidentiality as no entry would stay in it after each shutdown, only the data I have entered intentionally manually before I did remaster!

To do it, I need a version without greeting at the begin of the session and without asking if I will save before shutting down!

What would be to do to avoid to start the greeting immediately after start and avoid the question if you want save before reboot or shutting down?
from: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=621529#621529
I would prepare an update to submit for woof, as part of the lupu features to go there.
Richard
radky
PostPosted: Sat 21 Apr 2012, 10:46    Post subject:
Subject description: PupMenu-2.0

PupMenu-2.0

This major update features a new dual-pane interface and convenient file finder.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=76713
bigpup
PostPosted: Sat 21 Apr 2012, 00:03    Post subject:

Something to show what Linux and Puppy is all about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=8LAXg_UmzTY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkFQVcl62qo&feature=relmfu
bigpup
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 23:14    Post subject:

playdayz wrote:
Concerning Sulu (Lucid with the 3.x kernel) rerwin said something interesting to me--that it would make more sense to put the energy into Precise because not only the kernel but everything else would be updated and development could be done to make it more Lucid-like if desired. So check this out: uPup Precise with 3.3.2 kernel http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=77697

If you plan to combine forces with pemasu and make this the next logical path, for Lucid Puppy, it would be very good idea.
But, it needs to start with all the features of Lucid Puppy already there. After that, just tweaking to fix bugs.
The way "uPup Precise" is now, is just another from scratch build, with a lot of stuff missing or not working.
If I understood, Barry just put it together to try out something. So was not doing a complete build.
aarf
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 22:40    Post subject:

playdayz wrote:
Concerning Sulu (Lucid with the 3.x kernel) rerwin said something interesting to me--that it would make more sense to put the energy into Precise because not only the kernel but everything else would be updated and development could be done to make it more Lucid-like if desired. So check this out: uPup Precise with 3.3.2 kernel http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=77697
are you going to tweak it separately playdayz or are you joining pemasu over there? ok start download now.
vtpup
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 22:04    Post subject:

Cool, I'll try it!
playdayz
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 19:23    Post subject:

Concerning Sulu (Lucid with the 3.x kernel) rerwin said something interesting to me--that it would make more sense to put the energy into Precise because not only the kernel but everything else would be updated and development could be done to make it more Lucid-like if desired. So check this out: uPup Precise with 3.3.2 kernel http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=77697
James C
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 19:11    Post subject:

Just finished throwing some old spare parts together so Lucid 528.005 live....128 mb of ram with no hdd or swap. Sound,internet and display all working on boot.

sh-4.1# report-video
VIDEO REPORT: Lucid , version 528

Chip description:
oem: ATI RADEON III

Driver used by Xorg:


Video mode used by Xorg:
Resolution: Depth:

...the above also recorded in /tmp/report-video
sh-4.1# free

Using the Radeon driver.

total used free shared buffers
Mem: 125308 121512 3796 0 13620
Swap: 0 0 0
Total: 125308 121512 3796
sh-4.1#

-Computer-
Processor : AMD Duron(tm) Processor
Memory : 125MB (73MB used)
Operating System : Puppy Linux 0.52
User Name : root (root)
Date/Time : Fri 20 Apr 2012 06:41:37 PM CDT
-Display-
Resolution : 1024x768 pixels
OpenGL Renderer : Unknown
X11 Vendor : The X.Org Foundation
-Multimedia-
Audio Adapter : VIA686A - VIA 82C686A/B rev20

-Version-
Kernel : Linux 2.6.33.2 (i686)
Compiled : #1 SMP Thu May 27 10:56:32 EST 2010
C Library : GNU C Library version 2.11.1 (stable)
Default C Compiler : Unknown
Distribution : Puppy Linux 0.52
-Current Session-
Computer Name : puppypc
User Name : root (root)
Home Directory : /root
Desktop Environment : Unknown (Window Manager: Openbox)
-Misc-
Uptime : 21 minutes
Load Average : 0.38, 0.47, 0.54

-Processor-
Name : AMD Duron(tm) Processor
Family, model, stepping : 6, 3, 0 (AMD Duron (Spitfire))
Vendor : AuthenticAMD
-Configuration-
Cache Size : 64kb
Frequency : 701.16MHz
BogoMIPS : 1402.32
Byte Order : Little Endian

Posting from Dillo so I guess it's semi-usable.
gcmartin
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 17:52    Post subject: Browser Wars and PETs-SFSs Wars

2 items in recent posts are of interest.
  1. OOTB browser
  2. a new technology for SFS selection at/near initial
boot

OOTB browser
Having been associated with Puppy for as long as I have, there are members who have taken OOTB browser to the "Holy-WAR" level. It really shouldn't have been, but, because we, people, can be very passionate about things the browser is such.

History.
Barry ships SeaMonkey. It is the initial Mozilla (really Netscape Open source) product for which Firefox, Thunderbird grew out of during times when Internet speeds were still in dial-up.

My view is that Barry did a very good thing for the community by including this full feature subsystem as it includes browsing, email services, web-building, and does everything that multiple packages must be brought to task to accomplish.

That being said, as an OOTB browser, it can launch a good start in the desktop for any user, as all of its features are consistent with each other.

Now, the problem:
Some people feel that their browser, and only their browser, should be the OOTB browser in their Puppy.

So along comes Playdayz (who wants to establish a middle ground by giving an awkward (really backward) browser forcing a Puppy distro users to go back to the Internet (PPM) to get, install, tailor before use a brand-new browser.

In Puppyland, he who builds the distro get to choose. And like others who build distro, this is an attempt to be neural in the browser war.

One option, since Puppy was Barry's original offering to this community is to go back to presenting Barry's model and, as is done for all PUPs, let the user select something other should he choose from the Repo. But, again, that is the choice of the distro developer.

My current finding is that all of the dstros which ship OOTB with SeaMonkey gives me a basis for starter operations without the need to take precious time in browser selection needs. But, I am just one who understands that this is an OOTB production, I understand, in part, why Barry initially selected it, and I understand that it is a full-featured browser with the same features as IE/Safari/Firefox/Opera, not to mention its email services rivals/exceeds them all.

In summary, Barry presents a standard model. And the distro developers can choose to be consistent with the model or to modify it.

new Boot-time SFS technology
There appears to be a move afoot to address dealing with SFS files throughout Puppyland. This has been going on, very actively, for past couple years in this community.

The most INNOVATIVE use of SFS for system starts is TaZoC's implementation that he provided in his Puppy LIghtHouse64 "Mariner" distro. From a developer's standpoint, the developer provides " his selections" SFS.

His technology, to me, in innovative because nowhere else in Puppyland have I seen this implementation. And, in using it I have found it to be sound in its operation, and the OS with the SFSs employed are stable.

I believe that his implementation was modeled in conjunction with Shinobar and others ideas on SFSs.

My only regret is that there seems to be a confusing picture in SFSs versus PETs in the technology world of 2012. In fact, some veterans seemingly are refusing to prepare PET versions for PPM use, tracking and management.

This post is, simply, presented as ideas of historical basis. NOT as a request of any sort.


Hope this helps
Amgine
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 17:37    Post subject:

playdayz wrote:
Opinions Wanted Please

I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.


No! For the reason for how quickly it will be out of date, also I will use FireFox but other users might not. If there is a need someone can make a Browser Puplet with all the needed stuff (Browser, flash player... etc,)
vtpup
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 17:07    Post subject:

An unfortunate reminder: if you include a choice of browsers inside the ISO as additional sfs files, you will inflate your puppy ISO for download. So it will no longer be 130 mb -- and all the unused browsers will take up useless space. Not a problem for people with fast connections, but not everyone in the world has that.

On the other hand, an additional 15 mb download to install the browser, as it stands now, is fairly reasonable. The great advantage is that it is current.

As for confusing new users by having to select in quickpet, no more confusing than this: a pre-canned browser will rapidly become outdated after first issue. So the first thing a new user sees on opening the browser is "You are using an out of date version of___________ (name yer poison) The current version ________ contains important security updates" etc. etc. Not the most new user friendly stuff, nor one that wins puppy admirers.

So then the new user has to figure out how to update his/her browser. Which traditionally in Puppy has been a royal pain, and requires far more Linux "knowledge" than quick pet requires to select a current one in the first place. Plus far more time, and far more download time, since you already downloaded one (or more) outdated browsers in the ISO..

BTW all puppies and browsers require downloading by first time users, unless you happen to have a Puppy Linux Store nearby and have purchased a CD. Well, or a puppy wise friend -- who probably could hold your hand through the Quickpet procedure if it seems daunting to actually select a browser by clicking on its icon.) So there is no way of reducing startup downloads, except the present one, since it is the most efficient for an updated browser of choice. Only download once, and only what you want, and only the current version.


EDIT: @Minnesota I missed your point about handing out Puppy disks and wanting to avoid a further download by a new user. Suggestion, If an experienced user wants to do this, it's a simple matter to add one (or more) browser sfs files into the ISO before burning the CD. In this case they would be current.

Or you can load a browser sfs into a clean system and remaster. Then it is pre-installed, as well as current.I believe you can do this on a pfix=ram run even, but not sure about that.
bigpup
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 15:39    Post subject:

Quote:
WHY.... WHY a browser as part of the package. I test a lot... run most of the Flavors of Puppy as stand alone on the CD. Kind of hard to give out a of copy of the CD.... "spreading the word"...and tell the potential user ... OH yes.. .YOU must connect to the Internet to use this.

Am I missing something?
To use a browser pre-installed or given choice to download the browser.
Do not both options require need to be connected to the internet?
Did not Windows, fight a law suit in Europe, over only having "Internet Explorer" in Windows?
My understanding is, they lost, and now Windows in Europe, is required to come with no pre-installed browser. They have to offer a choice of browser to install and use.
In the earlier days of Puppy, the biggest reason for using Seamonkey was, it had more than just the browser. E-mail, editor, etc..
Even back then there was "Puppy browser".
Sure wish that small one could be updated, but it would probably require, bloating it up, like they all are now.
Just to add to the discussion.
The never ending browser war.
majorfoo
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 12:08    Post subject:

playdayz wrote:
Opinions Wanted Please

I cannot decide whether to put a browser (Firefox) into the next Lupu Plus.

Thanks for opinions.


I vote - leave it as is - let the user decide which browser they want to use.
Minnesota
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 10:26    Post subject: Browser in or Out
Subject description: Browser

Question:

How difficult is it to create TWO flavors?
1) Browser IN.....at least BASIC flavor.
2) Second Version Browser OUT...

OK, third flavor....
Some variation of additional sfs in the ISO, as optional? Think this is done in several of the new Puppy's Could a question be asked at start up time?

WHY.... WHY a browser as part of the package. I test a lot... run most of the Flavors of Puppy as stand alone on the CD. Kind of hard to give out a of copy of the CD.... "spreading the word"...and tell the potential user ... OH yes.. .YOU must connect to the Internet to use this.

My solution... I have a special stick with the browsers pets.

Conclusion: Is there a good compromise, giving both worlds?
kevin bowers
PostPosted: Fri 20 Apr 2012, 09:06    Post subject: Re: Browser Choice

shinobar wrote:

But the seamonkey will not be in the main sfs. It will be shipped in the iso as an additional SFS so that the user easily load it with the sfs_load. Of course it allows to choose your favorite browser replacing the SFS.

Seems like shinobar always has a better solution than anyone else!
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